30 for 30: Lakers/Celtics

Agreed.  We just couldn't get by either Boston or Philly in those days. We had a great team, too.  1980's Bucks Basketball.  Frustrating times.   

I still hate Dennis Johnson for that elbow he threw at John Lucas.  Someone should've "Gilloolied" his knees for that.

I believe the Bucks won more games in the 80s than every other team other than the LAL and Boston.  Boston was a juggernaut- probably the modern day equivalent of Golden State.  Not to mention the Sixers were really damn good and then later in the 80s the Pistons. 

Watched the first hour...pretty cool history.

Forget how racially explosive those times were......   

Guys getting knocked ass over teakettle and virtually no ref whining after every missed shot.

I had a friend of mine (we're both 47 years old) tell me he didn't think Larry Bird would make it in today's game due to there being better athletes, more emphasis on speed, etc.  I just about spit out whatever I was drinking at the time.  I think he forgot that there were plenty of great athletes at that time and Bird still was dominant.  Guys like Worthy, Wilkins, etc. were great athletes that couldn't handle Bird.  Now Bird certainly got worked over by Jordan when he got into 1 on 1 matchups with him, but EVERYONE got worked over by Jordan.

I am a little bit hesitant to say Bird is better than Magic as Magic could play guard/forward/center if he needed to whereas Bird was really strictly a forward.  They both were pretty awesome and even though neither was a superior run/jump athlete they both had instincts and were always 2 steps ahead of everyone else on the floor in terms of knowing where to go with the ball on offense and where to be on defense. 

The only forward type in today's game that has that court sense quite like those guys did is Lebron.  Amazing that he has the court sense AND the athletic ability that those guys lacked.

John Madden had the greatest Lombardi quote. 

"He would win 50 years before he coached. He obviously won when he coached. He would win 50 years after he coached. Because he had it. Whatever it is, he had it."

Thats Bird. Boston lifers called him "Basketball Jesus". These are people that watched Russell, Hondo, Cousy, Cowens, Jones. 

Isaiah Thomas saying Bird would be seen as "just another good guy" if he was Black after losing to the Celtics in seven games in 87 when Larrys back was really starting to fail him but still beat Detroit. 

Bird was a basketball savant.  

He just did stuff that nobody else did or ever did.

Legendary trash talker. McHale LOVES telling the story of the Christmas game against Indiana. Larry walked over to Chuck Person before tipoff and told him he had a present for him. During the game Larry set up behind the arc in front of Person who was on the bench. Larry caught the pass. Launched a three. Turned around while the ball was in the air and said "Merry ****ing Christmas" before the ball hit nothing but net. 

That story is slightly better than Larry walking into the locker room before the All Star Game in 87 and asking everyone who was coming in second place for the three point contest. 

Craig Hodges won the contest in 1990. When asked if the win felt empty because Larry Legend didn't compete Craig said, "He knows where to find me". When asked about Craig's comment Larry responded, "I know where to find him. At the end of the Bulls bench" 

If Bird was black he would be at the end of the Bulls bench with Hodges. 

Bird took a mid-major team to the National Championship game.

He was a 6'9" guy who made shots from every angle and every distance. He was a version of Dirk Nowitzki who could pass like a point guard and get 10+ rebounds a game. 

He was one of the 10 greatest players I've ever seen play despite the fact he looked like a guy who should be playing in the local rec league.

Who's better?  Let's get a good discussion going on this. 

1. Jordan

2. Kareem. I think Kareem is the most unappreciated player in NBA history from an historical context. Everyone seems to remember him as the (still effective) 40 year old jogging up and down the court. He was an athletic guy who could run the court when he was younger. 

3. LeBron

4. Bill Russell. I never saw Russell play on TV. He won all the time, but he played on a team that seemed to have about half of the all-stars in the league every year in a much smaller league. 

5. Chamberlain. I think Wilt gets a bad rap as well. If you switch Russell and Chamberlain teams, I think Chamberlain wins as often as Russell and Russell may have never won a championship.

6. Magic

7. Bird

8. Duncan

9. Kobe

10. Shaq

I see Durant working his way into this discussion in another 2 years. 

Great challenge Michigan....Been an NBA fan since 1969. I just think it's so hard to do a Mt. Rushmore of hoops....so many variables. I'm old and I err on the side of old school. Mine:

-Jabbar

-Magic

-Bird

-Robertson

-Jordan

That said, guys like Cazzie Russell, Bob McAdoo, Alex English, Maravitch .....I could go on and on.....so dynamic, so entertaining and yet as the years have gone on, they get more and more forgotten.

Shyt. Rick Berry.

No Junior Bridgman or Sidney Moncrief?!??!

You guys suck. 

BK has a good point on Oscar Robertson. I only vaguely remember at the end of his career on the Bucks. How good was he? Was he a LeBron James pantheon type triple double guy or was he a "just" a great player who put up big numbers playing on mediocre teams early in his career (Westbrook). 

Brainwashed Boris posted:

No Junior Bridgman or Sidney Moncrief?!??!

You guys suck. 

I loved Sidney, but the injuries prevented him from being a top 100 player type all-time. That, plus the fact that he wasn't a great shooter. 

Moncrief's best comparable was probably being a shorter version of Pippen. Both were shut-down defenders who were great slashers and finishers around the basket. Pippen was a much better 3 point shooter and was 4 inches taller which is why he's a top 50 player all time. 

Who is Bridgeman's comp current day? Khris Middleton? 

1) Jordan 

2) Kobe

3) Olajuwon 

4) Lebron

5) Bird

6) Magic

7) Duncan

8) Kareem

9) Robinson

10) Giannis

MichiganPacker2 posted:

Who is Bridgeman's comp current day? Khris Middleton? 

Maybe a Harrison Barnes? 

1) Fred Roberts 

2) Frank Brickowski

3) Brad lohaus 

4) jack sickma

5) Scott skiles

maybe I didn't understand the list...

El-Keston-Hiura posted:

1) Fred Roberts 

2) Frank Brickowski

3) Brad lohaus 

4) jack sickma

5) Scott skiles

maybe I didn't understand the list...

How could you leave Randy Breuer off that list? 

Paul Mokeski......Amateurs

Pretty disrespectful to Kent Benson. 

Sikma is the one that doesn't fit. The other guys (other than Skiles) are all prototypical white, tall, unathletic guys who could make contributions as role players (and we forgot to include Larry Krystowiak). 

Jack Sikma won a ring with Sonics and was a 7 time all-star, an 85% FT shooter, a surprisingly good 3 point shooter, and was second team all-defense early in his career with the Sonics. I remembered him being a good player, but if you look at basketballreference.com  they have him at a Hall of Fame probability at 87%. This does seem high until you look at his resume. A good comparison for him is probably Pau Gasol. 

http://www.basketball-referenc...ers/s/sikmaja01.html

Fun discussion.

I think Lebron has gone soft too often in crucial moments of big games.  Not all the time, but often enough.  To me that leaves him out of the top 5.

MC, I don't know enough about Olajuwon, but ranking him #3 seems high to me.  I am unconvinced he was a better center than Wilt, Kareem, or Russell.  I am too lazy, but I'd be interested in seeing the stats for Ewing and Olajuwon in the finals for some analysis.  If Olajuwon's numbers weren't a fair amount better, well that is significant to me.  I think Wilt, as an example, would have dominated Ewing.  Jabbar as well.

Even though Magic had that great final game in the finals his rookie year (he played center as Jabbar was hurt), I thought he lacked enough clutch performances until he hit that baby hook against the Celtics in a finals they won.  He also acquired a decent outside shot a few years after being in the NBA.

I tend to place Jordan and Magic 1 and 2.  Magic was such a great PG and at 6'9", that is just incredible.  I never rooted for them, but I think Showtime was the best basketball ever played if one judges by a few years (as opposed to a single year).

Who else in my top 5?  I am really uncertain.  Players that come to mind are Wilt, Russell, Jabbar, Bird, and Oscar.

I may not give enough love to Kobe.  After that whole accusation thing from the woman in Colorado, just really dislike him and so admit to having a bias.

Using Ewing as a barometer for Hakeem just makes him look better.

Jordan is the best.

Magic, KAJ, Wilt in the next tier.

duncan, shaq, Russell, Lebron follow.

#9/10 is tough. Bird, O, Hakeem, Kobe, Dr.J, west.  

Regardless of our obsession with lists, my favorites to watch were Malone/Stockton (honorable mention for Eaton), Nique/Blaylock, early Shawn Kemp/Payton and I loved Ric Smits (and hated Reggie Miller).  

I almost never watch the NBA now, except for the occasional Bucks game when they are on or if a former Badger is playing.  I think Kidd will stop the Bucks from ever being great, regardless of the amazing talent they have accumulated.  

I really loved the NBA back in the 80's and 90's and would watch it quite regularly.  Now? ugh I just don't like it that much anymore.  Maybe it is the force feeding of it by ESPN, no parity at all, with things like the Big Baller Brand and things like that it just has lost me as a fan. 

Anyhow, I will always remember my only Bucks game in Milwaukee in about 81 or 82 and the Bucks were playing the Celtics.  We got their early and Bird was out by himself shooting around.  He would take a shot and while it was in the air he would move to another spot on the floor and the ball would go in, spin just right, and meet him at the next spot.  It was freaking crazy and the Bucks fans started cheering for him.

Top 10 is fun 

MJ, Shaq, Wilt, Bird and Magic seem like logical top 5 group.  Russell, Duncan, LeBron, Big O, Kareem round it out 

phaedrus posted:

 

MC, I don't know enough about Olajuwon, but ranking him #3 seems high to me.  I am unconvinced he was a better center than Wilt, Kareem, or Russell.  I am too lazy, but I'd be interested in seeing the stats for Ewing and Olajuwon in the finals for some analysis.  If Olajuwon's numbers weren't a fair amount better, well that is significant to me.  I think Wilt, as an example, would have dominated Ewing.  Jabbar as well

 

Olajuwon helped the Rockets to the finals before he even had developed an offensive game. By the 90s he had- and though we were robbed of the opportunity of seeing the Jordan Bulls in the Finals against those 2 Championship Rockets teams, it is worth noting that Jordan himself had been quoted as saying that he wasn't 100% sure if they could have handled "that monster". We'll never know, but it took 2 all time great teams (Celtics and Sixers) to beat them in the Finals in the 80s.

But his statistics against the modern era of basketball are undeniable. I put him #3 all time because he was the most dominant C in the era of the dominant C. No disrespect to Russell and Chamberlain- but they played in an era that afforded them their gaudy accomplishments. In the modern era, Olajuwon was the best, and would still be in his prime today.  

Prime shaq > prime HA

i get they are polar opposites.  Hakeem was a dancer, could have easily been a power forward, but Shaq, in his prime, physically destroyed everyone.  It wasn't always pretty and he couldn't hit a free throw, but he dominated.  

I disagree. Shaq was at age 22/23 about as good as he was going to be- he never really changed much for the better from his early years- and that was the year he played Olajuwon in the Finals. He scored some points, but in a 4-0 sweep Olajuwon dominated him en route to Finals MVP at age 32. 

Shaq was a force. Olajuwon was better in almost conceivable way. 

I did an internet search and watched a youtube of Hakeem.  Gotta admit that the dude was positively awesome.  At the least, his quickness for his size I think is far better than any other player (his size).

Yeah, maybe he ranks that high.  Subjective and that's what these fun discussions are all about.

Olajuwon had the best footwork of any center/PF I've ever seen (from playing soccer growing up). The next best in terms of footwork was probably Kevin McHale (who is not a top 10 player, but probably doesn't get his due). If you didn't see these guy play in their prime, go watch some YouTube videos of them pump faking guys out of their jocks and drop stepping for layups. 

I would still take Kareem over either one of them. The sky hook was the single most unblock able shot in NBA history. Kareem was the NBA finals MVP at age 37 after winning it 14 years earlier at 23. 

Magic was a great player - also a top 10 guy, but he never won a ring without Kareem. 

Best Centers (primarily post-up guys)

1. Kareem

2. Wilt

3. Russell

4. Olajuwon

5. Shaq

Best Forwards (post-up guys who could also play outside)

1. Bird

2. LeBron

3. Duncan

4. Malone

5. Baylor

Best Wing Players (Scorers from the wing)

1. Jordan

2. Kobe

3. Durant

4. West

Best Point Guards

1. Magic

2. Robertson

3. Isaiah Thomas (Pistons version)

4. Stockton

5. Steph Curry

Player you'd most want to go to at the end of a game 7 to create his own shot

1. Jordan

2. Bird

3. Durant

4. Kobe

5. LeBron

6. West

7. Kareem

Player you'd most want to shoot an open 3 point FG at the end of game 7 for the win/tie

1. Ray Allen

2. Bird

3. Durant

4. Steph Curry

5. Jordan

Scary thought- Giannis actually has some of Olajuwon's game. Not the post game- not yet anyway- but the defensive movements and the way he attacked the rim and could dunk on the way up. If he gets some of that post game... I honestly don't care as much about the 3. Hakeem's baseline turnaround was money. The footwork in the post with fakes and pivots, and the ability to elevate inside cannot be underrated. Falling away to create separation is all Giannis needs to be a 30/10/5/2/2 guy. 

Never saw Wilt play but I would imagine it was a lot like Shaq- simply dominant especially in the first 10 years of his career.  His fundamentals weren't great but he was just such a physical force and mismatch.  

Hakeem probably doesn't get his due but it's tough to compare or break it down to a few players.  Kind of like forwards- primarily the 4 spot.  Barkley and Malone and Garnett and Duncan were great players but if you could only pick 2 who would they be?    If you combined all forwards (SF) like Bird then it's even more difficult. 

Tschmack posted:

Never saw Wilt play but I would imagine it was a lot like Shaq- simply dominant especially in the first 10 years of his career.  His fundamentals weren't great but he was just such a physical force and mismatch.  

Hakeem probably doesn't get his due but it's tough to compare or break it down to a few players.  Kind of like forwards- primarily the 4 spot.  Barkley and Malone and Garnett and Duncan were great players but if you could only pick 2 who would they be?    If you combined all forwards (SF) like Bird then it's even more difficult. 

 

Of those 4, Duncan is the only sure pick. The guy won 5 rings and would have tied Jordan if not for a step back fall away 3 pointer by Ray Allen.

The other 3 are a tossup.

Duncan->Garnett->Malone/Barkley.  

That is not a knock on Malone/Barkley.  

Wait.

Was that a math problem?

I just got PTSD.

PRE-EXISTING CONDITION

Get that man a gun!

STD too?

you wish