Plus / Minus Atlanta Game

That's the point I made last year about Rodgers holding the ball even though the first window is open and hoping the second window opens. He wants the bigger play. If he threw on time to the first open window, it's five-six-ten yards every time. But he prefers the 20- to 30-yarder, and has even said that making easy throws gets boring.

As to MM's coaching... Well, hello, those quick throws right after the snap last night in the second half got the team back in the game and gave some help to the young tackles and kept AR from an MRI machine date today. That should have been the plan all along! We do what we do is fine as long as you have the personnel to carry it out; when they aren't there, we do what we do is a recipe for failure.

Refs seemed like someone told them they must call every pick play, right or wrong. Send the tape to the office, get the apology, and get mad this week all over again. It gets old...

ChilliJon posted:

Hungry5 posted:

I'd actually put King and Hawkins outside and House in the slot, now. Speed outside and physical in the slot. 

No issues with this attangement at all. 

Especially with the next 2 opponents. 

Make R&R play more ST, that might get them interested in focusing.

excalibur posted:

packaddict posted:

And to think they have to play 7 more games on that turf.  Good Luck!!

They could do as the Pats did and tear it out after one game.

So much credit to the Pats, they install new turf in April or thereabouts, play a game on it and hate it, so they tear it out. They are always on top of stuff. Anyone think Capers would last a minute as DC there? Yet here we are stuck on stupid.

titmfatied posted:

excalibur posted:

packaddict posted:

And to think they have to play 7 more games on that turf.  Good Luck!!

They could do as the Pats did and tear it out after one game.

So much credit to the Pats, they install new turf in April or thereabouts, play a game on it and hate it, so they tear it out. They are always on top of stuff. Anyone think Capers would last a minute as DC there? Yet here we are stuck on stupid.

 

lasted one season, under fire from Belichick constantly.  not his best example of excellence.  he was once very good as a coordinator, he's still lauded for that greatness even though he's fielded terrible defenses. It can't all be the talent's fault.

Smack down by tit!

pablopackerfan posted:

lasted one season, under fire from Belichick constantly.  not his best example of excellence.  he was once very good as a coordinator, he's still lauded for that greatness even though he's fielded terrible defenses. It can't all be the talent's fault.

I don't remember hearing that at all. In fact I don't remember there was much talk about Dom's time in NE. 

Grave Digger posted:

pablopackerfan posted:

lasted one season, under fire from Belichick constantly.  not his best example of excellence.  he was once very good as a coordinator, he's still lauded for that greatness even though he's fielded terrible defenses. It can't all be the talent's fault.

I don't remember hearing that at all. In fact I don't remember there was much talk about Dom's time in NE. 

Actually, you're right. It wasn't Bellicheck. It was the D coordinator Pees. You can do a googly just like you would if you wanted to confirm how right you might have been.  

one season and dbacks gave up tons of yards and points. regardless, not a great example of Dom's success (and there are many) 

 But Dum Capers is the problem here for the Packers, the last 7 years.  that much is obvious.  TT could draft better on D as well, sure there's been injuries but all teams have that, including the Pats who've won 3 Suppers since then and the bendy turns to breaky really fast when they play against great receivers.  The DBs are maybe terrible but the scheme for sure is dun fer

watched the game on pvr last night:

+ 12 was alive after the game

+ the injuries didn't look terrible? 

+ 20,27,ilb, olb, 42 - collinsworth said it - gb has possibly found the future cb and s king did ok and so did jones

+ OL so listen they could have been ALOT worse -I thought they did pretty good given the circumstances, I mean that tackle was on the PS not long ago

+ 88 thought he did ok last night

+ i was at the viking/steeler game, don't ask long story...but the stink in the viking team, they quit on the way through the tunnel, i did not see quit in our team

+ usually not bad 2 weeks in a row.  and we came back in this game.

- need our infirm to get better its clear 87 and 76 are critical to this team (period).

- slow wr's and the play of 80 was bad - he needs to get that figured out.

- 23, 24 were clearly not capable of covering a floor, let alone jones or sanu - sanu is the 'packer killer' really, we can deal with jones but those underneath guys, like golden tate, sanu, those shifty guys, we can't deal with these guys.  that is a problem

- 21 i love this guy, he missed several plays in this game and blew a lot of coverages

the falcons are probably the best, if not 2nd best team in the league (right now) and we almost figured it out.  i think we put some miles on king and move 27 to ilb and put 42 back to s and we may have something...just another comment, ar is really good, some of those throws under duress, trust me, i saw a bad qb live this weekend, we are blessed to have this guy...

Who said this?

“We didn’t do enough. Ultimately, that’s what it comes down to. It’s one game, but it’s unfortunate especially when you want to test yourself against the elite. You learn from it and get better. I’m sure you can take some positives away from it, but it’s hard to right now.”

Read more: http://www.packers.com/news-an...cf051f#ixzz4t92Owcbf

pablopackerfan posted:

Actually, you're right. It wasn't Bellicheck. It was the D coordinator Pees. You can do a googly just like you would if you wanted to confirm how right you might have been.  

one season and dbacks gave up tons of yards and points. regardless, not a great example of Dom's success (and there are many) 

I did a search and found nothing of what you're referring. Perhaps I used the wrong keywords. That 2008 Patriots D was 8th in completions, 11th in passing yards, 31st in TDs, and 8th in INTs. TD numbers are bad, but the other numbers seem on par with Belichick's defenses in general. 

Grave Digger posted:

31st in TDs, ..... TD numbers are bad, 

Probably Dom's lack of motivating skills. The fire in their bellies just wasn't there by Dom like it should have been...

Keeping another team out of the endzone is really to high a standard to hold any defensive coach to

He was 58 in 2008, you can't expect a 58 year old man to keep NFL offenses out of the endzone on his own. He probably hadn't played football since the early 70's, that's a long gap in playing time. Adjust your expectations amigo.

El-Belichick-Landry posted:

Keeping another team out of the endzone is really to high a standard to hold any defensive coach to

"Results are over rated"

The real problem is that we are in year 5 now of debating if the problem is TT (players) or Dom and GB has done nothing to try and get to the root cause.  

Ultimately the responsibility falls on TT as he either needs to adjust his drafting / player acquisitions or adjust the coaching.   He's done neither and let this escalate to the point where we are nervous that Rodgers legacy will be 1 Super Bowl even though he is statistically the best ever QB to play the game.   

Hungry5 posted:

Try this instead....

This might be worthy of it's own thread.   Check out the statistical analysis of MM's clock management over at Cheesehead TV.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/...imeout-a-history-633

Seattle game yes thought it was bad idea, Atlanta game had no problem with being the aggressor before halftime. More then a minute and a half with timeouts and AR12  any coach should be trying to score. Fault lies with Aaron for a bad throw or Allison for a badly run route not MM. 

...and stripes for a bad flag. Trifecta of fail.

BrainDed posted:

This might be worthy of it's own thread.   Check out the statistical analysis of MM's clock management over at Cheesehead TV.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/...imeout-a-history-633

 

Lot of work and effort to come up with information that doesn't tell us anything. 

The comment section is pretty outstanding though. 

It tells me that MM puts too much faith in the defense.    I get wanting to get #12 another possession, but when the other team is willing to concede a possession, with these Defense it appears it's best to accept.  

Here's what the article tells us. 

In 16% of every game MM has coached he made a questionable decision (according to the writer) with timeouts to try and get his QB the ball back. 43% of the time it worked. 57% of the time it didn't. 

In the end it cost him a net loss of 22 points over the course of 11 plus years. 

If GB went 0-32 in the games his use of time outs before the half is being called into question then it's worthy of a discussion. My guess is the W-L record in those 32 games doesn't support the point the article is making. 

I'm not saying MM is a game clock wizard. He's not. I just think the article is off base. 

ChilliJon posted:

...and stripes for a bad flag. Trifecta of fail.

Agreed. I think part of the thinking on the throw by Aaron was "need to get that yardage back" and took a risk by throwing it deep. 

The Packers have a new starting CB. Good. R&R sh*t show needs to end. 

Monty has been excellent as a runner. If he can survive the season (not a given), he's a feature back. 

Matthews was an animal out there Sunday. Front 7 needs more from the rest. They were bloodied pretty good that first half  

McCarthy going after the official and being dead right is going to help long term. About time we saw this from him. 

Bennett- CTFB!!!! 

Get healthy, kick Cincy's ass, and get moving. 

ChilliJon posted:

If GB went 0-32 in the games his use of time outs before the half is being called into question then it's worthy of a discussion. My guess is the W-L record in those 32 games doesn't support the point the article is making. 

I'm not saying MM is a game clock wizard. He's not. I just think the article is off base. 

In fact it does not support the article. He is 21-11 in those games, which is a better win % (.656) than his overall winning % (.649). His career winning %, BTW, is the 16th best in NFL history and 2nd only to Bill Belichick (.672) among active HC. In 178 games he's flubbed pre-halftime timeouts 32 times and only lost 11 of those games. When you look at the premise of this article in the big picture not only does it NOT show any sort of trend or pattern or prove the relevance of pre-halftime clock management skills, it's just overall a big fat WHO CARES!

BrainDed posted:

El-Belichick-Landry posted:

Keeping another team out of the endzone is really to high a standard to hold any defensive coach to

"Results are over rated"

No, no.  "People put too much into results".  MM.

There is a disconnect between the booth and field.  End of story.  Jones and King need to be on the field.  Position coaches need to get their ****ing turds in a herd as The Wizard calls down his spells from above.

The Packers have slow starts to the season.  Surprise.  Yet they beat Seattle and lost to a really good team with two scrubs at T.  As far as defense, people need to shut up about Uncle Teddy getting players.  He fulfilled his part in spades this year.  Use the ****ing talent Wizard.

I don't know that it's a disconnect insomuch as these coaches are creatures of habit and they get really stubborn which is what I think is happening with the players. 

It's clear to me Rollins can't play CB without help.  In fact, it may be time to turn the page on him altogether.  

Randall can play but and has the tools and talent to be effective but he has had a ton of mental lapses or breakdowns in his technique.  This has been the case since going back to the start of last year.  I'm not sure you want him out there trying to get things right against Julio Jones.  That's utter stupidity on behalf of the coaching staff. 

As for House, he's an upgrade over those two and should start one of the two positions but it's obvious to me he has his challenges defending the run so may need some help there. 

Agree on King and Jones starting - no reason King isn't a starter and Jones shouldn't be a nickel or dime DB. 

It should also be noted that on the one position where TT decides to go light or develop guys always seems to just get decimated with injuries.  The one thing I would say is TT needs to respond since he now knows what he's got backing up that line.

As far as the defense.  He did his job.

Agree not sure you can blame TT for the DB situation.  He drafted Rollins and Randall and King and Jones and also added Brice and Hawkins and Gunter as undrafted free agents.  That's all in the last 2 years or so.  

This.

Position coaches need to get their ****ing turds in a herd as The Wizard calls down his spells from above.

And This.

As far as defense, people need to shut up about Uncle Teddy getting players.  He fulfilled his part in spades this year.  Use the ****ing talent Wizard.

For this second comment... I keep going back to 2010 and the Super Bowl run.

DEF players on IR late 2010 and through the playoffs: N Barnett; M Burnett; B Chillar; B Poppinga; J Harrell; S Havner; B Jones; M Neal

Available DEF players down the stretch: R Pickett; BJ Raji; H Green; C Wilson; C Matthews; AJ Hawk;  D Bishop; F Zombo; C Woodson; N Collins; T Williams; A Bigby; P Lee; J Bush; C Peprah; S Shields, R Francois; D Briggs; M Wilhelm; C Jenkins; J Wynn

Capers took what he had and leveraged that. I know CWood and Collins were huge, but is the gap that great? Look at the S and ILB options. Also, he had Zombo as an OLB. Some of the back-ups, guys who get significant snaps in the heavy rotations, are not a who's who of defensive players.

Why can't he conjure up some spirit's with this current crop?

Henry posted:

As far as defense, people need to shut up about Uncle Teddy getting players.  He fulfilled his part in spades this year.  Use the ****ing talent Wizard.

Tschmack posted:

It's clear to me Rollins can't play CB without help.  In fact, it may be time to turn the page on him altogether.  

Randall can play but and has the tools and talent to be effective but he has had a ton of mental lapses or breakdowns in his technique.  This has been the case since going back to the start of last year.  I'm not sure you want him out there trying to get things right against Julio Jones.  That's utter stupidity on behalf of the coaching staff. 

As for House...it's obvious to me he has his challenges defending the run so may need some help there. 

There seems to be disconnect in the consensus on X4. TT found the players for a good defense, but when individual players are discussed it seems there is a consensus that several guys we have shouldn't be starting. At various times since the start of TC we have heard from various that Clay is washed up or at least can't be counted on, Fackrell is godawful, there's no depth at OLB with all the injury risk, Martinez is slow, Ryan isn't a starter, Randall can't play or at least shouldn't be starting, same for Rollins. When you're talking about key starters or depth, there doesn't seem be a consensus that the talent is actually there. Do key depth players suck or does Capers have enough talent? Can't say we have sucky players playing key roles and then criticize coaches for not throwing together a top 10 defense. Personally I lean more toward this team having talent and this defense isn't that bad. Every seasons requires some depth chart adjustments as it goes, King should be starting it seems. I don't blame Capers for this D giving up 27 points to a team that is coming off an historically good season averaging 30+ ppg and making a trip to the SB. His chosen starter got chewed up by JJ and so he put someone else in after halftime and JJ's output was reduced, that's the right decision. They gave up 9 points the week before, we're still at 18 ppg average which is very good. 

Really good defenses get beat by really good offenses.

Again, going back to SB 45, I think PIT D was 1 or 2 in the league and GBs offense had a pretty successful day.

Last year. NEP defense was 8th in yards allowed and 1st in pts allowed in the regular season. ATL had a very productive 2+ qtrs vs them in the SB.

I like what we saw week 1, not so much week 2. Let's see where they are after 6 or so weeks.

Grave Digger posted:

ChilliJon posted:

If GB went 0-32 in the games his use of time outs before the half is being called into question then it's worthy of a discussion. My guess is the W-L record in those 32 games doesn't support the point the article is making. 

I'm not saying MM is a game clock wizard. He's not. I just think the article is off base. 

In fact it does not support the article. He is 21-11 in those games, which is a better win % (.656) than his overall winning % (.649). His career winning %, BTW, is the 16th best in NFL history and 2nd only to Bill Belichick (.672) among active HC. In 178 games he's flubbed pre-halftime timeouts 32 times and only lost 11 of those games. When you look at the premise of this article in the big picture not only does it NOT show any sort of trend or pattern or prove the relevance of pre-halftime clock management skills, it's just overall a big fat WHO CARES!

That's a pretty simplistic view of the data.   Here is surprising stat, all people who ate carrots in 1884 are now dead.  

Do you think it's possible that the Packers could have won those games in spite of the poor clock mgt choices?   Do you think those poor souls possibly could have died from other factors?

Do you think it's possible that the Packers could have lost those 11 games regardless of the poor clock mgt choices? 

Tschmack posted:

Agree not sure you can blame TT for the DB situation.  He drafted Rollins and Randall and King and Jones and also added Brice and Hawkins and Gunter as undrafted free agents.  That's all in the last 2 years or so.  

 

You absolutely can.   Going all the way back to his futile attempts to replacing Nick Collins, GB has had serious talent issues in the secondary.   

TT would never publicly admit it, but he has to believe that he has failed in this area.   If not, why the hell are we still seeing Dom Capers in the booth every week.  

Disclaimer - This is in no way a defense of The Wizard. 

Hungry5 posted:

Do you think it's possible that the Packers could have lost those 11 games regardless of the poor clock mgt choices? 

Yes.   Does this mean we can't address the glaring weakness in his game?  

The "we won anyways, it doesn't matter" argument is a glorious example of burying your hand in the sand.    MM has a lot of strengths and redeeming qualities as a HC, time and game mgt are not one of them.