Pluses and Minuses

I agree with most of that post except "drafting ZBS" players  The real problem is colleges do not turn out linemen any more.  Although TT drafted  some duds he deed it with the dame philosophy, LT's and move.  Don't forget D-Bak fell in the drat because he was a ZBS guy!  

  IN my younger days offensive linemen were the safest bets in the draft but those days are over now they are a serious crapshoot!  Although I  was proved right (perhaps by injury) I never cared for Derek Sherrod because of this.  He was athletic and fast but he played almost exclusively in a two point stance and when I saw him with his has in the dirt he had difficulties generating any power and he didn't seem to come to balance quickly enough pass blocking!

I didn't have a problem with the Bennett penalty. At that point in the game it was more important to run time off the clock then to get points.  Pushing back 15 yards just takes us longer to go down the field and eats up more clock.

Herschel posted:

Henry posted:

They could've had Tretter for comparative pocket change.

Desperation.

They've drafted some interior guys high of late but they haven't tabbed an actual tackle since Justin Britt, who is their starting center right now. Odhiambo, Ifedi, Pocic were all projected interior guys. It didn't help they lost their starting LT in preseason, but he was a Breno-type to begin with. I'm thinking part of the issue is drafting for the ZBS crap  because they're tabbing the same type of ZBS project busts TT did back with Moll, Barbre, Junius, Breno and the like. Cable's a good coach, but it's more chicken salad out of chicken schit. Get him just plain solid prospects and he'll work wonders and adapt to them.  

Werd.  It really seems like a pretty damn big miss on Schneider's part as Cable is a well respected Oline coach.  When TT was whiffing he also had the genius of James Campen trying to implement that horse**** ZBS.  All GMs have their strong points.  Looks like Schneider better farm out the oline selections.

Pack88 posted:

I agree with most of that post except "drafting ZBS" players  The real problem is colleges do not turn out linemen any more.  Although TT drafted  some duds he deed it with the dame philosophy, LT's and move.  Don't forget D-Bak fell in the drat because he was a ZBS guy!  

  IN my younger days offensive linemen were the safest bets in the draft but those days are over now they are a serious crapshoot!  Although I  was proved right (perhaps by injury) I never cared for Derek Sherrod because of this.  He was athletic and fast but he played almost exclusively in a two point stance and when I saw him with his has in the dirt he had difficulties generating any power and he didn't seem to come to balance quickly enough pass blocking!

TT rightly moved away from drafting for a scheme that Campen could never implement and drafted straight up ballers on the oline.  Primarily guys who played most if not all of their college careers on the oline.  Pure ZBS in Green Bay was toe tagged more than a few years ago. 

Here's the thing that bothers me.  If you would put Sherrod and Spriggs up for comparison, both having not played a game or dealt with injury, who would you pick?  If it's me, I'd probably take Sherrod.

Everyone read the draft profiles on Spriggs.  I believe the one listed concern was needed to put on weight but more that he didn't play nasty and got pushed around.  TT drafted this guy on his measurables flat out.  He looks like a stud LT.  Bak does not look like a stud LT coming out of Colorado.  I don't know if Spriggs is a ding dong or not but it's getting to the point where a bit a nasty with a big brain goes farther than any elite athleticism.  Bak pulled a Tauscher.  Reading what the Packers are doing with the inside/outside hands technique, Bak uses it to maximum effect.  

If it's me I'm bringing in a lot more Oline guys for face to face evaluations on pre-draft visits.  

There was 3:09 left on the clock and Seattle had two clock stoppages (a timeout and the 2 minute warning), and the penalty pushed them back to their own side of the field instead of being in position for a long FG. If they hadn't gained another inch after that Rodgers scramble, the personal foul would have been the difference between a punt and a 56 yard FG attempt. I don't know about you, but I think a 56 yard FG attempt (Crosby still has the leg to hit it) is much better than punting the ball back to Russell Wilson with plenty of time on the clock. Bennett made up for it a few plays later with a 26 yard catch, but personal fouls like that one are what loses football games. Penalties like that one are the self inflicted wounds that make comebacks possible.

Henry posted:

Pack88 posted:

I agree with most of that post except "drafting ZBS" players  The real problem is colleges do not turn out linemen any more.  Although TT drafted  some duds he deed it with the dame philosophy, LT's and move.  Don't forget D-Bak fell in the drat because he was a ZBS guy!  

  IN my younger days offensive linemen were the safest bets in the draft but those days are over now they are a serious crapshoot!  Although I  was proved right (perhaps by injury) I never cared for Derek Sherrod because of this.  He was athletic and fast but he played almost exclusively in a two point stance and when I saw him with his has in the dirt he had difficulties generating any power and he didn't seem to come to balance quickly enough pass blocking!

TT rightly moved away from drafting for a scheme that Campen could never implement and drafted straight up ballers on the oline.  Primarily guys who played most if not all of their college careers on the oline.  Pure ZBS in Green Bay was toe tagged more than a few years ago. 

Here's the thing that bothers me.  If you would put Sherrod and Spriggs up for comparison, both having not played a game or dealt with injury, who would you pick?  If it's me, I'd probably take Sherrod.

Everyone read the draft profiles on Spriggs.  I believe the one listed concern was needed to put on weight but more that he didn't play nasty and got pushed around.  TT drafted this guy on his measurables flat out.  He looks like a stud LT.  Bak does not look like a stud LT coming out of Colorado.  I don't know if Spriggs is a ding dong or not but it's getting to the point where a bit a nasty with a big brain goes farther than any elite athleticism.  Bak pulled a Tauscher.  Reading what the Packers are doing with the inside/outside hands technique, Bak uses it to maximum effect.  

If it's me I'm bringing in a lot more Oline guys for face to face evaluations on pre-draft visits.  

Henry:  Dbak slid in the draft because he was  viewed strictly as a ZBS in spite of having some of the best pass blocking grades his last year in college.  He played on a terrible team and his run blocking tape was (fair) not impressive again because he was playing with 4 four future accountants on a 0-10 team .

Back to your question about Sherrod or Spriggs I saw both of these guys play and Sherrod was better in college.  You saw what I wrote earlier but Sherrod does the one thing Spriggs struggles with, his hand placement is inconsistent but Spriggs has even better feet- he just won't ever show it until his hand work is better!!

Herschel posted:

 

 Cable's a good coach, but it's more chicken salad out of chicken schit. Get him just plain solid prospects and he'll work wonders and adapt to them.  

I agree with you Herschel.  Cable may not be a human being of impeccable moral standards (has been accused of getting abusive with multiple women), but I think he had a good reputation as an Offensive Line coach before he flamed out as a head coach.  

In some ways, sometimes I am surprised with how well Seattle is actually able to function at all offensively with the mishmash of guys they have on that line.  I think it's a combination of R. Wilson being elusive with a quick release, and Cable's coaching that have kept that O-Line from being a complete and total clusterf**k.  It's bad, but not epically bad.  I mean it's not as bad as say Houston Texans of the early 2000s getting poor David Carr maimed and battered to the point that he was sort of permanently shellshocked. 

I could see Seattle's O-Line getting better as the season wears on if they stay healthy.  I think LT is going to be a problem for them no matter what, but some of those other guys have enough talent that they could maybe improve over what they showed in week 1. 

@Pack If Mason misses that 56 yard kick Seattle takes over on their 46 with around :55 seconds on the clock. 

After the penalty:

Seattle called their final time out with 2:45 remaining after a Ty run, (1 yard loss)

On 2nd and 6 (first play after the Bennett penalty was offsides on Seattle) Rodgers hit Bennett for 26 yards. 

Two minute warning. 

Now, had GB simply run a stretch play or even a run between the tackles. The play takes 6-7 seconds then the clock winds. Let's just assume GB picks up no yards. 

3rd and 6. Ball is snapped with two minutes left. 6-7 second play. Again assume no yards. GB calls TO with somewhere between 1:05 remaining. 

Last thing you want to do there is attempt a 56 yard FG. You pretty much have to punt. If not that then you run another play instead of risking those 7 yards on a missed FG AND you burn a little more clock. 

When you get right down to it. The pass to Bennett on 2nd and 6 was a risky option. He drops it the clock stops with 2:35 left and it's 3rd and 6 and Seattle still gets the two minute warning  

In the end it worked out. And again. Screw Wright. He absolutely lined his helmet up with the middle of Rodgers back. 

56 yards is definitely risky, you're right. A <50 yard attempt probably still would have been worth trying in that scenario though if they gained more yards and came up short the first. Penalties just suck all around, I think we can all agree on that. I get protecting Rodgers from cheap shots, but you hope to see cooler heads to prevail in an 8 point game (against a QB who is renowned for spectacular comebacks) when they're in their 4 minute offense.

Pete Carroll teams are carefully coached to provoke the other team into committing personal fouls (lots of teams do that, but Pete's boys seem to be extra aggressive and more successful with it). Lots of borderline cheap shots, trash talk and playing through the whistle to get the other guys to react. Those are the trademarks of Pete Carroll teams. Bennett took the bait.

Henry posted:

Here's the thing that bothers me.  If you would put Sherrod and Spriggs up for comparison, both having not played a game or dealt with injury, who would you pick?  If it's me, I'd probably take Sherrod.

Everyone read the draft profiles on Spriggs.  I believe the one listed concern was needed to put on weight but more that he didn't play nasty and got pushed around.  TT drafted this guy on his measurables flat out.  He looks like a stud LT.  Bak does not look like a stud LT coming out of Colorado.  I don't know if Spriggs is a ding dong or not but it's getting to the point where a bit a nasty with a big brain goes farther than any elite athleticism.  Bak pulled a Tauscher.  Reading what the Packers are doing with the inside/outside hands technique, Bak uses it to maximum effect.  

Let's let Spriggs make his way through years 2 and 3 before we label him as anything or compare him to busts like Sherrod. People forget he came from an offense that didn't ask him to do much of what is asked of NFL LT's, that adjustment can be harder for some guys than others. Some guys like Bak get it right away, it's why the draft is a crapshoot. I don't think he drafted Spriggs on measurables alone though, I think they're pretty thorough with vetting OL. He showed well at the Senior Bowl and the Combine.  I think they liked his attitude and demeanor, his draft profiles listed him as a guy who finishes blocks. The important thing is that he still has loads of potential and we don't need him to play right now, they can be patient and let him develop. If his development goes well he could be a guy we could flip for a 1st round pick. That prospect alone is worth a roster spot. 

Grave Digger:  I absolutely agree;  I saw Spriggs at the combine thus my comment about the feet, I think he has absolutely the potential to be a very good left tackle and hopefully he grows into the job, my ding on Spriggs' about handwork is  a commonly posted issue and proves true the old adage about hands taking you where your feet can't.  He holds because his hand placement has regularly been poor so he grabs to reassert position!

Pack88

Pack-Man posted:

56 yards is definitely risky, you're right. A <50 yard attempt probably still would have been worth trying in that scenario though if they gained more yards and came up short the first. Penalties just suck all around, I think we can all agree on that. I get protecting Rodgers from cheap shots, but you hope to see cooler heads to prevail in an 8 point game (against a QB who is renowned for spectacular comebacks) when they're in their 4 minute offense.

 

Pete Carroll teams are carefully coached to provoke the other team into committing personal fouls (lots of teams do that, but Pete's boys seem to be extra aggressive and more successful with it). Lots of borderline cheap shots, trash talk and playing through the whistle to get the other guys to react. Those are the trademarks of Pete Carroll teams. Bennett took the bait.

Pete Carroll carefully coaching to provoke or incite a response. Illustrated. 

Grave Digger posted:

Henry posted:

Here's the thing that bothers me.  If you would put Sherrod and Spriggs up for comparison, both having not played a game or dealt with injury, who would you pick?  If it's me, I'd probably take Sherrod.

Everyone read the draft profiles on Spriggs.  I believe the one listed concern was needed to put on weight but more that he didn't play nasty and got pushed around.  TT drafted this guy on his measurables flat out.  He looks like a stud LT.  Bak does not look like a stud LT coming out of Colorado.  I don't know if Spriggs is a ding dong or not but it's getting to the point where a bit a nasty with a big brain goes farther than any elite athleticism.  Bak pulled a Tauscher.  Reading what the Packers are doing with the inside/outside hands technique, Bak uses it to maximum effect.  

Let's let Spriggs make his way through years 2 and 3 before we label him as anything or compare him to busts like Sherrod. People forget he came from an offense that didn't ask him to do much of what is asked of NFL LT's, that adjustment can be harder for some guys than others. Some guys like Bak get it right away, it's why the draft is a crapshoot. I don't think he drafted Spriggs on measurables alone though, I think they're pretty thorough with vetting OL. He showed well at the Senior Bowl and the Combine.  I think they liked his attitude and demeanor, his draft profiles listed him as a guy who finishes blocks. The important thing is that he still has loads of potential and we don't need him to play right now, they can be patient and let him develop. If his development goes well he could be a guy we could flip for a 1st round pick. That prospect alone is worth a roster spot. 

We hope.  I'm not so sure.

Thought I'd clue everybody in on what really happened, according to local Seattle sports radio. Seems the Seattle OLine was the problem, and they didn't execute properly. So it wasn't that the Packers front seven punched them in the mouth all game long. As for the Packers giving up four sacks, and not scoring in the first half: That was the Seattle front seven, being that they are the greatest ever assembled, and not the Packers OLine missing Bulaga, and assignments or not executing.

So, for the 12's, it's always about the Hawks, and never the fact that they might have been outplayed. Must be nice to know your team is God's gift to football. Hell, many of them don't even know why they play the season. They should just give the trophy to Pete every year and everybody can hoist a latte' to the greatest team ever!

Seattle's oline is a problem.

Seattle's front 7 is very good, probably top 5 in the league.

The Packers did miss Bulaga.

None of that matters.

ScoreBoard 17-9

lovepack posted:

Thought I'd clue everybody in on what really happened, according to local Seattle sports radio. Seems the Seattle OLine was the problem, and they didn't execute properly. So it wasn't that the Packers front seven punched them in the mouth all game long. As for the Packers giving up four sacks, and not scoring in the first half: That was the Seattle front seven, being that they are the greatest ever assembled, and not the Packers OLine missing Bulaga, and assignments or not executing.

So, for the 12's, it's always about the Hawks, and never the fact that they might have been outplayed. Must be nice to know your team is God's gift to football. Hell, many of them don't even know why they play the season. They should just give the trophy to Pete every year and everybody can hoist a latte' to the greatest team ever!

O-Lovepack:  I live out here in Seasuck country and all of the media seems to belong to the Pom Pom squad but I do like to listen to Mike Holmgren and Hugh Millen as they let enough of the harsh truth to leak out!  Ididn't get to listen this week but I'm sure they were a little more candid than the rest!   Also rewatch the first half w\o emotion and you will see Packers O did better than you think they drove that ball from inside the 10 to midfield twice and another from just outside the 10  

Notice in the second half only two punts!  I think that Rodgers and Co were better than we think!

Bakhtiari has missed 2 games in 4 years and Spriggs doesn't seem to be the top backup anywhere else. We won't need him to play unless there's an emergency. 

Everybody should be pulling for Spriggs... but right now, he can't play football at this level. 

Those watching Sprigg's issues are saying it's mostly what's between his ears that are the issue. While that's no help right now, the good news is it's fixable.

He is still his height. He is still his arm length. He still has his quick feet.

The above is why he was taken in the 2nd, and could have been taken in the 1st.

Jason has the ability to fix Jason.

For fu** sakes, Allen Babre, Marshall Newhouse, and Breno all with FAR less talent and physical gifts all had long careers in the NFL as OL.

And they all took quite a while to develop into serviceable NFL linemen. It can take a bit. 

Right now it looks like Spriggs feet are frozen, guessing its in his head cause he has the athleticism to move better than he is.  One thing for sure, his technique is awful right now. I'm no expert but he looks like he plays with poor balance. 

He's the football version of Steve Sax. Remember those days with the Dodgers?

Please don't remind me of Steve Sax...

I see your Steve Sax and raise you a Chuck Knoblach.

I see your Steve Sax and Chuck Knoblach and raise you a Brett Boone.

Lays down Rick Ankiel's 2000 NLDS Game 1 3rd inning....

(Gathers pot. Stacks chips with both hands. Adjusts sunglasses) 

Or Jon Lester: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cblrlzIxxfY

I read that Spriggs' run blocking is serviceable to good. So that if he can become even an average pass blocker he will be an acceptable rotation guy, maybe even a starter. Does that sound reasonable based on what people here see?