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If any team loses their two best pass rushers the sacks and QB pressure is going to drop off dramatically. No matter how much depth they have. That's true of all 32 teams. 

The problem is our two best pass rushers will likely miss games. It's pretty much a given they aren't playing full seasons. 

Its going to get pretty gnarly if both of them miss four or more games each. Need them both to stay on the field as much as possible. (And not playing at 60%) 

Last edited by ChilliJon

I've largely seen Gunter as Hyde. Both good players; not starters, but could be good depth/rotational/situational guys. 
His biggest asset at this point is actual game experience, IMO. He may become our "bubble" guy this year. My guess is if it comes down to him or one of the UFDA guys, he would make the roster before they would.

He's like House was early during his time in GB, a good #3 or #4 who can handle guarding another team's #3 or #4 WR. House improved over time, hopefully the same is true of Gunter. He'll never be able to defend against Julio Jones, but he can handle another team's Geronimo Allison or James Jones. I don't think there's a CB better than him or with more potential who is behind him on the depth chart. 

Last edited by Grave Digger

I wonder how many spots are truly "open" on the 53, especially on offense?

If Kerridge sticks, which seems likely, Monty and Williams would seem locks at RB with maybe one other opening. 

The o-line would seem set unless Patrick can somehow unseat Barclay (Amichia to PS).

QB is Rodgers and Hundley, with Callahan if they can swing a spot. 

WR is Jordy, Ankles and Cobb, Janis and Davis would seem to have jobs to lose with Special Teams contributions, and Allison in week three would seem a strong possibility also, so maybe only one spot there, max, and two draft picks.

TE seems set with Bennett, Kendricks and Rodgers.

8 O-line, 2 FB, 3RB, 2QB, 6 WR, 3 TE is 24, with probably only one spot somewhere in there, saving three spots for the specialists.

On defense it's a little more open, maybe. 

DL of Clark, Ringo, Lowry, Daniels, Jean-Francois and Adams would seem set. (6)

OLB of Matthews, Perry, Fackrell, Biegel and Elliott. (5)

ILB of Martinez, Ryan and Thomas (with Burnett and Jones with snaps) (3)

S of Burnett, Clinton-Dix, Jones, Brice (with Randall taking snaps if Rollins locks nickle corner down) (4)

CB of King, House, Rollins, Randall (4)

That's 22 with probable spots for at least two of some combination of Gunter/Goodson/Tripp, really only leaving 1-3 spots open.

Of course injuries may change this, especially if Montravious Adams or Biegel suffer setbacks.

FLPACKER posted:
NumberThree posted:
michiganjoe posted:

Gunter so far is having a really rough camp. He needs to pick it up or I can see the distinct possibility of him missing the cut.

He kinda of reminds me of Terrell Buckley.

Sure, he'll make a few INTs if a QB throws the ball to him on accident, he may even assist on a bunch of tackles; but he'll never be able to cover the deep ball, hook, or slant routes, and more often than not he will Darren Sharper every open field tackle he's presented with.

He should not be on the roster and was a UDFA for a reason. He played last year because our secondary had 4,781 injuries.

He reminds me of nothing like Buckley. This from article when he was traded:

"But what Buckley had going for him, according to those within the organization, was more than offset by deficiencies in size, competitiveness, hands, tackling, practice habits, discipline and responsiveness to big-game situations."

Gunter's problems are none of those.....they are that he just is not an elite athlete. 

Gunter's problem is that he's a safety playing corner.

PackFoo posted:

Gunter's problem is that he's a safety playing corner.

I don't understand why? Safetys aren't just slow Corners. Safety's have to be able to move laterally and change direction quickly, Gunter clocked at a 7.18 in the 3-cone at the combine. For reference, Vince Biegel had a 6.92. Gunter is where he's supposed to be, he's just not a great Corner. 

UDFA WR Michael Clark torched the secondary for two TDs today. One from Hundley. One from Rodgers. 

Dom is going to **** this all up once again. Dom and the defense are like the movie Rush Hour. You've seen it plenty of times. It's not good. You know how it ends. And you're still watching it when it's on. 

The reason for optimism? The 2017 Packers offense might be the best offense we've ever seen in Green Bay. Winning a Super Bowl with a defense ranked 25th or worse is still winning a Super Bowl. 

Last edited by ChilliJon

Lots of new parts working in the whole so I'm guessing it's the dreaded communication problem at this point, second week of TC.  They'll get worked over through the first 4 or 8 but should start showing up in November.  Well likely see 2 rooks logging significant snaps by then. Long season, people.

Last edited by DH13
ChilliJon posted:
Grave Digger posted:

Ugh Michael Clark beat camp body DBs. Seasons over, might as well start prepping for 2018 Draft. 

Caught them while covered by Randall and King. The TD against King earned Clark a chest bump from Rodgers. 

Camp body DBs projected as week 1 starters. 

Optimistic way to read it . . . Michael Clark is the **** at 6'6".  I'll give King the rookie pass and Randall the shrimpy pass.  I don't suspect we'll see Randall on the outside very much.  

Of course, they got torched by a rookie UDFA.  Please let it be Michael Clark is the ****.  

Maybe it was time for croquet and finger sandwiches on the lawn at the Packers Defensive Country Club?

Last edited by Henry
ChilliJon posted:
Grave Digger posted:

Ugh Michael Clark beat camp body DBs. Seasons over, might as well start prepping for 2018 Draft. 

Caught them while covered by Randall and King. The TD against King earned Clark a chest bump from Rodgers. 

Camp body DBs projected as week 1 starters. 

Hardly "torched", the 6'6" receiver just outjumped them. Jeff Janis outjumped Patrick Peterson for a Hail Mary, does that mean anything? How many 6'6" WR will CBs see this year?

I think we're fielding a group of CBs for 2017 that are going to be underwhelming again. We desperately need someone to be a shut down guy and I don't see anyone on the roster that can fill that role. Rollins is the bright spot so far and that's not reassuring. I see a group where each guy does some things very well but is equally exploitable in a different area. It's fine for sub top 10 offenses, but that scenario becomes a nightmare when they run into an ATL or NE. 

Training camp in the modern NFL leaves a lot less time for skill development and relies a lot more on intrinsic talent for a young player. One high level CB takes a lot of pressure off the entire group. It's too much for me to think King could be that guy in his first year. Randall is the guy I was hoping would come into camp with purpose and be the man. The opportunity is there and he has the intrinsic tools, but from everything I've read over the past two years I get the sense he lacks the relentless work ethic and desire to be an elite corner. For a 1st round pick I want more than a slot guy. I want a guy that can compete with  a #1 WR outside, win more than he loses, and if he can play the slot in addition to his outside responsibilities it's gravy.  It's year three. He needs to get his sh!t sorted and play to his potential instead of just being happy he's in the NFL.

I get that they're getting abused by perhaps the best offense in the NFL this training camp. Doesn't seem like 12 wants to build anyone's confidence on the defense this preseason. I think 12 looks at the weapons he has this year and wants to force a track meet. I think MM looks at his defense and wants the running game to be able to bleed the clock in the second half if they have a big lead. I'd rather they just let 12 keep attacking.

Herschel posted:

I'm glad I was sitting for that revelation.

This one?

He presses them hard at the line of scrimmage and shoots his hands directly into their chest, disrupting the route before it begins.

Joe Whitt:

“Josh is getting better,” Whitt said. “What he’s not doing is he’s not giving up plays. That’s what we have to have. We gave up way too many explosive passes, especially on the outside, I think we’ve done a good job in camp of holding vertical control when we’re in team-type periods.”

I'm hoping The Wizard nails that concept down before he creates a new genius prevent defense.

Lots of new parts working in the secondary as a whole so I'm guessing it's the dreaded communication problem at this point, second week of TC.  They'll get worked over through the first 4 or 8 but should start showing up in November.  We'll likely see 2 rooks logging significant snaps by then - because they will be ready.  Long season, people.

I've also read Yancy has started picking things up.  Someone mentioned Harold Charmichael in reference to Clark.  Hyperbole but the first time I've heard anyone compared to Charmichael.  I remember him when I was a little kid as a fan of the Eagles.  Why was I an Eagles fan?  Because in 1981 the Packers sucked and I liked eagles. 

Tough cut down at WR this year.

Last edited by DH13
DH13 posted:

Lots of new parts working in the whole so I'm guessing it's the dreaded communication problem at this point, second week of TC.  They'll get worked over through the first 4 or 8 but should start showing up in November.  Well likely see 2 rooks logging significant snaps by then. Long season, people.

I expect Dom to get the communication problems fixed by no later than next March.

Grave Digger posted:

He's like House was early during his time in GB, a good #3 or #4 who can handle guarding another team's #3 or #4 WR. House improved over time, hopefully the same is true of Gunter. He'll never be able to defend against Julio Jones, but he can handle another team's Geronimo Allison or James Jones. I don't think there's a CB better than him or with more potential who is behind him on the depth chart. 

Every player in the NFL has  a skill set that is typically enhanced with experience!  The converse is also true of ability that it is often exposed with repetition.  The greatest players get beat regularly, it is how you resolve your defeat in the 2 second war that is the NFL.  Gunter lacks the  one weapon his position  mandates- recovery speed- if you could weld Josh Hawkins and Gunter together you might have a heck of a player. Apart neither may be an legit NFL prospect but Hawkins owns that essential trait (recovery speed) that may make up for his other deficiencies (line jam and steering)

DH13 posted:

Someone mentioned Harold Charmichael in reference to Clark.  Hyperbole but the first time I've heard anyone compared to Charmichael.  I remember him when I was a little kid as a fan of the Eagles.  Why was I an Eagles fan?  Because in 1981 the Packers sucked and I liked eagles.

Back in those days, '81 was actually a "good" year for the Pack as they traded for San Diego All-Pro WR John Jefferson in mid-season and they made it to 8-8.  Sorry you missed that as an Eagles fan. 

Truth be told, I rooted a lot for the San Diego Chargers (R.I.P. NFL Football in San Diego) a lot from 1979-1981 so I can relate to rooting for another team during that era. 

titmfatied posted:

Rollins is the bright spot so far and that's not reassuring. 

Now we're to the point where even when defensive players play well it's obviously a sign that something else is wrong? I remember the days when people got excited when a player was singled out for performing well as if it was a sign we had good players. Now the consensus seems to be our defense sucks no matter what it does. This is how people turned into Brett Favre fans instead of Packer fans, they complained so much about every other player and coach except Favre that he was all they could like. I'm not saying you specifically do this Tit, but this thread is littered with pessimism about a defense that hasn't played a snap of football against another team. "We'll see" has been replaced "I already know". 

Last edited by Grave Digger
titmfatied posted:

I think we're fielding a group of CBs for 2017 that are going to be underwhelming again. We desperately need someone to be a shut down guy and I don't see anyone on the roster that can fill that role. Rollins is the bright spot so far and that's not reassuring. I see a group where each guy does some things very well but is equally exploitable in a different area. It's fine for sub top 10 offenses, but that scenario becomes a nightmare when they run into an ATL or NE. 

Training camp in the modern NFL leaves a lot less time for skill development and relies a lot more on intrinsic talent for a young player. One high level CB takes a lot of pressure off the entire group. It's too much for me to think King could be that guy in his first year. Randall is the guy I was hoping would come into camp with purpose and be the man. The opportunity is there and he has the intrinsic tools, but from everything I've read over the past two years I get the sense he lacks the relentless work ethic and desire to be an elite corner. For a 1st round pick I want more than a slot guy. I want a guy that can compete with  a #1 WR outside, win more than he loses, and if he can play the slot in addition to his outside responsibilities it's gravy.  It's year three. He needs to get his sh!t sorted and play to his potential instead of just being happy he's in the NFL.

I get that they're getting abused by perhaps the best offense in the NFL this training camp. Doesn't seem like 12 wants to build anyone's confidence on the defense this preseason. I think 12 looks at the weapons he has this year and wants to force a track meet. I think MM looks at his defense and wants the running game to be able to bleed the clock in the second half if they have a big lead. I'd rather they just let 12 keep attacking.

I know his best years are behind him, but has anyone picked up Darrelle Revis yet?  Even with his decline, he may well be better than what we have at corner right now.  Packers are more than $22M under cap and I would think he might be receptive to a reasonable one-year contract for the chance to play for a SB contender.  

fightphoe93 posted:
DH13 posted:

Someone mentioned Harold Charmichael in reference to Clark.  Hyperbole but the first time I've heard anyone compared to Charmichael.  I remember him when I was a little kid as a fan of the Eagles.  Why was I an Eagles fan?  Because in 1981 the Packers sucked and I liked eagles.

Back in those days, '81 was actually a "good" year for the Pack as they traded for San Diego All-Pro WR John Jefferson in mid-season and they made it to 8-8.  Sorry you missed that as an Eagles fan. 

Truth be told, I rooted a lot for the San Diego Chargers (R.I.P. NFL Football in San Diego) a lot from 1979-1981 so I can relate to rooting for another team during that era. 

No I remember that clearly but wasn't JJ fat and slow/unmotivated by time he got to GB?  I don't remember 81' being an 8-8 year but my memory from that age isn't crystal clear.  I was also a Chargers fan (because I liked chargers, as in 69 dodge, and also lightning bolts) that year and remember Fouts, Winslow, JJ, Muncie and Chandler.  I was hoping for a Chargers/Eagles SB.

John Jefferson was fun in Green Bay. Maybe it didn't work out like we all would've hoped but he definitely wasn't "fat & slow/unmotivated"

There were some fun games with Dickey, JJ, Lofton & Coffman. Fun offense to watch.

Barring injury, I'm expecting perhaps the best offense of all-time this year in Green Bay. I'm not joking. We finally have a TE or 2

DH13 posted:
 

No I remember that clearly but wasn't JJ fat and slow/unmotivated by time he got to GB?  I don't remember 81' being an 8-8 year but my memory from that age isn't crystal clear.  I was also a Chargers fan (because I liked chargers, as in 69 dodge, and also lightning bolts) that year and remember Fouts, Winslow, JJ, Muncie and Chandler.  I was hoping for a Chargers/Eagles SB.

'81 certainly wasn't a great year by any means compared to the past 25 years.  But it wasn't one of the really really awful Packers teams like say '79 or '80 or some of those really bad teams post John Hadl trade, or the bad teams post trade for Mossy Cade, etc. etc.  The '81 team actually showed some glimmers of hope and the Packers did play some good football in the strike shortened season of '82 making the playoffs and winning the division.   That was about it though in terms of good football until about 10 years later. 

I totally agree.  I've soapboxed several times on this site when people dog the 80's as all doom and gloom.  Those offensive spurts are probably what kept me tuned in before my 10th birthday.  What I remember about the 80's isn't an overall suckitude but how the teams that did show hope would beat a team or two they weren't supposed to, pull into the lead/tie in the central and then when it came to the last week or two of the season where winning would get them into the playoffs, they always flopped.  Strike notwithstanding.  Big O, little d.

Grave Digger posted:

Now we're to the point where even when defensive players play well it's obviously a sign that something else is wrong? 

Not at all monsieur, since the poor play of players (or a squad) is not a reflection of the coach, when a players does play well it is a reflection of tensions with North Korea.  

The '80s weren't all doom and gloom, but 1986-1991 was a horrible stretch with the one exception being that really cool and fun '89 team.  Other than that, just awful football for most of the rest of that timespan. 

Anyways... back to modern times.  It would be nice if Clark really turns out to be the next Harold Carmichael but it wouldn't shock me if he turns into the next Chastain West/Tori Gurley training camp sensation who turn out to be just marginal NFL players.

Grave Digger posted:
titmfatied posted:

Rollins is the bright spot so far and that's not reassuring. 

Now we're to the point where even when defensive players play well it's obviously a sign that something else is wrong? I remember the days when people got excited when a player was singled out for performing well as if it was a sign we had good players. 

Welcome to 8 years of The Wizard.

Clark is a legit 4.50 guy. His greatest attribute right now is that he doesn't know enough to know he doesn't know ****. So it's 6'6", a 33" vertical, and ability so far. 

But he did know enough to recognize AR changing his slant to a fade against King. And you know AR must love a kid that doesn't know how to play WR knew enough to run a route he changed at the line. 

Henry posted:
Grave Digger posted:
titmfatied posted:

Rollins is the bright spot so far and that's not reassuring. 

Now we're to the point where even when defensive players play well it's obviously a sign that something else is wrong? I remember the days when people got excited when a player was singled out for performing well as if it was a sign we had good players. 

Welcome to 8 years of The Wizard.

Is this horse not beaten to death. You guys are just saying the same thing over and over again. Players look good in camp...Dom Capers sucks. Excited about he season...The Wizard sucks. Green Bay Pa...yeah but Capers sucks. That sh*t gets old, every thread gets derailed with the same boring talk. 

Agreed. This **** is getting old. You ran Clark beating camp DBs right out the side of you're ass. When he beat starters then he's nothing like a WR GB is going to see during the season because he's really ****ing tall. Excuses or results. You get one. You can't get both. 

Dom is going to Dom and **** up another year right up to the moment he doesn't. 

Being a fan of ALL of the Packers is fun, you should try it instead of constantly b*tching about the fukking DC...that's the stupidest thing to obsess about. You're not being objective, you're being a fukking whiner like all the people that have b*tched about Ted Thompson for years and all the people who b*tched about Aaron Rodgers after Favre left. I think we've established how people here feel about Dom Capers. It's the lamest sh*t.

Last edited by Grave Digger
RochNyFan posted:

I know his best years are behind him, but has anyone picked up Darrelle Revis yet?  Even with his decline, he may well be better than what we have at corner right now.  Packers are more than $22M under cap and I would think he might be receptive to a reasonable one-year contract for the chance to play for a SB contender.  

Revis is not Packer People.   TT will use  some of that $22 million to extend guys for next season. 

Grave Digger posted:

Being a fan of ALL of the Packers is fun, you should try it instead of constantly b*tching about the fukking DC...that's the stupidest thing to obsess about. You're not being objective, you're being a fukking whiner like all the people that have b*tched about Ted Thompson for years and all the people who b*tched about Aaron Rodgers after Favre left. I think we've established how people here feel about Dom Capers. It's the lamest sh*t.

I've never bitched about Ted or Rodgers. So don't lump me into you're misguided bull**** thinking. You put you're stake in the ground in support of Dom. You stand by that. Knock it off please. 

Last edited by Rusty

I have no idea what the real story was, but Jefferson wound up on Gregg's bad side and was put in the doghouse permanently. JJ bitched about it towards the end of his time here, and Gregg said "tough sh*t", paraphrased, of course.
FWIW, Gregg's hiring may have a bigger mistake than the decision to fire Starr. Part of the reason he was brought in was his reputation of being tough and hard-nosed, and supposedly that's just what the Packers needed. He was that indeed, but it translated poorly to the players, and we pretty much sucked the next few years until the Majik era.

Grave Digger posted:
titmfatied posted:

Rollins is the bright spot so far and that's not reassuring. 

Now we're to the point where even when defensive players play well it's obviously a sign that something else is wrong? I remember the days when people got excited when a player was singled out for performing well as if it was a sign we had good players.

For me the key is players. I'm not unhappy that Rollins is playing well, but we need more than just him. Ideally we want CBs taking starting positions and pushing each other for who's the alpha. It would be one thing if all the guys were playing well and Rollins was playing better than any of them. I don't get the feeling that's the case.

Losing Shields broke a lineage of having at least one alpha outside corner heading into the season (Shields, Tramon, Woodson, Harris). The last time the position was this shaky Antuan Edwards was on the team. It's extraordinarily difficult to win a championship without an alpha.

CB is the weakest position group on the team in my estimation. Particular attention is going to gravitate there and so far in camp the results haven't been too reassuring. I go into every training camp with great optimism that last year's weak spots can become strengths with off season talent infusion, development, and competition. So far it would seem wise to temper my hopes for the CBs this season.

When Rodgers talks about getting home field advantage it means starting the season strong and elevating from there.  Evaluating where we're at right now I have to be honest and say there's pressure to perform and the CBs as a group aren't close to showing up for the challenge. It's one thing if Jordy works over a young guy. It's another thing when I hear the young WRs are getting loose.

I'd also defer to your opinion if you think I'm wrong and they're playing better than my intuition tells me. I'm going off what I read and what I hear from the beat reporters. You've been at practice and have a better idea of how the competition has played out.

Henry posted:

What was Clark's 40 time?  4.5?  If he can run routes like Jennings (or close to) and keeps making grabs I don't see how he isn't on the squad for pitch and catch sessions in the EZ with Rodgers and Martellus.

Jennings and Jordy are the two best route runners I've seen in watching over 50 years of Packer football. If Clark approaches their level... 

Will be fun to watch this kid develop. 

titmfatied posted:
Grave Digger posted:
titmfatied posted:

Rollins is the bright spot so far and that's not reassuring. 

Now we're to the point where even when defensive players play well it's obviously a sign that something else is wrong? I remember the days when people got excited when a player was singled out for performing well as if it was a sign we had good players.

For me the key is players. I'm not unhappy that Rollins is playing well, but we need more than just him. Ideally we want CBs taking starting positions and pushing each other for who's the alpha. It would be one thing if all the guys were playing well and Rollins was playing better than any of them. I don't get the feeling that's the case.

Losing Shields broke a lineage of having at least one alpha outside corner heading into the season (Shields, Tramon, Woodson, Harris). The last time the position was this shaky Antuan Edwards was on the team. It's extraordinarily difficult to win a championship without an alpha.

CB is the weakest position group on the team in my estimation. Particular attention is going to gravitate there and so far in camp the results haven't been too reassuring. I go into every training camp with great optimism that last year's weak spots can become strengths with off season talent infusion, development, and competition. So far it would seem wise to temper my hopes for the CBs this season.

When Rodgers talks about getting home field advantage it means starting the season strong and elevating from there.  Evaluating where we're at right now I have to be honest and say there's pressure to perform and the CBs as a group aren't close to showing up for the challenge. It's one thing if Jordy works over a young guy. It's another thing when I hear the young WRs are getting loose.

I'd also defer to your opinion if you think I'm wrong and they're playing better than my intuition tells me. I'm going off what I read and what I hear from the beat reporters. You've been at practice and have a better idea of how the competition has played out.

The only comfort that I can offer is that you can't trust the camp reports.   Every year there are guys who play lights out or play horrible according to camp reports but when the season starts they are who we thought they were.  

I lied, one more area of comfort.   If I learned anything last year, it's that just because I can't see the injury doesn't mean it isn't severely impacting performance   See Adams.  It's possible, maybe even probable, that one of our two youngsters plays up to potential when healthy.   

 

ChilliJon posted:

I've never bitched about Ted or Rodgers. So don't lump me into you're misguided bull**** thinking. You put you're stake in the ground in support of Dom. You stand by that. And **** you!

Didn't say you complained about them, but this whining about Dom Capers is at the same level as those who b*tch(ed) about Ted and Rodgers. I'm not even saying you're wrong, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it's that this lame a$$ whining has gone on for 8 F*CKING YEARS. Any time someone here wants to talk about this team the thread gets littered with b*tching with pessmistic Dom Capers bullsh*t. You guys have a lot of football knowledge and insight, stop wasting it on the same lame a$$ Dom Capers talk. 

titmfatied posted:

I'd also defer to your opinion if you think I'm wrong and they're playing better than my intuition tells me. I'm going off what I read and what I hear from the beat reporters. You've been at practice and have a better idea of how the competition has played out.

I'm not more knowledgeable than anyone else, but I saw competition in camp that did not warrant pessimism. House and Rollins and even King had tight, step-for-step coverage on our starting receivers, which are arguably the best group in the NFL. I'm not crowning this defense as the best in the NFL, but I think we now have the talent to be among the top in the NFL barring multiple  injuries at key positions like last year. 

Grave Digger posted:
ChilliJon posted:

I've never bitched about Ted or Rodgers. So don't lump me into you're misguided bull**** thinking. You put you're stake in the ground in support of Dom. You stand by that. And **** you!

it's that this lame a$$ whining has gone on for 8 F*CKING YEARS. 

Wrwrwrong.  It's only started in earnest after it became pretty much fact that the defense would collapse in the playoffs.  

BTW, the devil has the best lines.  

Me 10 years ago:

Me after being Wizarded:

Grave Digger posted
Grave Digger posted:
titmfatied posted:

I'd also defer to your opinion if you think I'm wrong and they're playing better than my intuition tells me. I'm going off what I read and what I hear from the beat reporters. You've been at practice and have a better idea of how the competition has played out.

I'm not more knowledgeable than anyone else, but I saw competition in camp that did not warrant pessimism. House and Rollins and even King had tight, step-for-step coverage on our starting receivers, which are arguably the best group in the NFL. I'm not crowning this defense as the best in the NFL, but I think we now have the talent to be among the top in the NFL barring multiple  injuries at key positions like last year. 

 

Should've stopped right there - and even then you'd be a bit generous in your self-assessment.

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