Given the investment at OLB they'd better be. Next year the Smith bros are gonna cost $31M; $36M in 2021
To be fair, if they get into the top 10 this year it will be a bargain. Packers' salary spending for defense is dead last this year.
Henry posted:I'm still scratching my head on Breeland. Maybe they just didn't trust he would stay healthy. Either way, I still don't get it.
Has anyone heard anything about Jackson?
Especially since he only signed a 1 year/$2M deal with KC and publicly said he wanted to return to GB. Doesn't make much sense on the surface, but Pettine said he talked to Gute in the offseason and they laid out this plan for the defense which obviously didn't include Breeland. #InAngryBaldManWeTrust
Jackson has been on the NFI list with a foot injury throughout camp I believe. He passed his physical on Monday though so we may see some of him against the Ravens.
I am still hopeful that Josh Jackson turns the corner in year 2. He isn't the fastest cat out there but he displayed exceptional ball skills in college.
Just read an article in the GBPG today about the struggles Packers had with tackling against Houston. Not expecting a finished product in the early pre-season, but I am not sure what to make of some of Tramon Williams' remarks about tackling, and the varying desire to do so, in the regular season.
Pakrz posted:I am still hopeful that Josh Jackson turns the corner in year 2. He isn't the fastest cat out there but he displayed exceptional ball skills in college.
No doubt he's a ball hawk.
RochNyFan posted:Just read an article in the GBPG today about the struggles Packers had with tackling against Houston. Not expecting a finished product in the early pre-season, but I am not sure what to make of some of Tramon Williams' remarks about tackling, and the varying desire to do so, in the regular season.
Subscribers only, Rochny,
BTW, is your 1st name Knute? 
Grave Digger posted:I like TT, but I don't think he was listening at all with defensive coaches about who or what was needed over the last 7-8 years.
Maybe he was.
Dom.
13X posted:No doubt he's a ball hawk.
Yeah he was great in college when playing zone. He was lost when asked to play bump and run last year. Hopefully he improves his man technique...wondering if Pettine is flexible enough to vary the scheme to suit ???
Would be nice if Jackson steps up, especially if King is out for any time.
"Pettine leans heavily on CBs to win 1on1's,"
Because he expects the pass rush to get there?
Or to, you know, have players cover the rest of the field.
Grave Digger posted:
“Gutey and I met right at the end of the season, and we were very much on the same page with what needed to be done moving forward,” Pettine said.
I like TT, but I don't think he was listening at all with defensive coaches about who or what was needed over the last 7-8 years.
I don’t know what’s scarier: to think that TT might actually have been listening to Dom, or that TT was that bad a defensive talant judge toward the end...
I"m going with the perfect storm.
The tackling is so bad right now on every level, it’s really hard to believe the defense has any more than the makings of a unit that will have lots of guys in the right place and fail to deliver. Preseason didn’t seem to deteriorate Baltimore’s tackling efforts...
Fandame posted:I don’t know what’s scarier: to think that TT might actually have been listening to Dom, or that TT was that bad a defensive talant judge toward the end...
I think TT listened to them about wanting position versatility and probably some other buzzwords and then drafted players that fit that mold like Datone or Perry or Haha. I think his big mistake was being overconfident in guys like Moss, Trgo, Perry, etc. to coach up unique athletes instead of getting football players. Why would you pass on TJ Watt in favor of Kevin King unless you believe King’s ceiling is higher and your CB coach can unlock it. He was lying to himself that the staff could get it done.
Who knows what they were thinking. Maybe they had King and Watt at a tie and went with the position of greater value. We wouldn't be having the constant comparison if King was healthy - he's good.
Or maybe TT was overconfident in his scouts and they let him down yet again in round ONE....and then they all got promoted
Good news is Packer fans should not be worried cause OLB has been massively upgraded. Za'darius better that Watt !!??
Packdog posted:Who knows what they were thinking. Maybe they had King and Watt at a tie and went with the position of greater value. We wouldn't be having the constant comparison if King was healthy - he's good.
Or maybe TT was overconfident in his scouts and they let him down yet again in round ONE....and then they all got promoted
Good news is Packer fans should not be worried cause OLB has been massively upgraded. Za'darius better that Watt !!??
Reports I read said every scout in the room, including Gute, wanted Watt. Ted went his own way.
Letting Casey Hayward walk away for pocket change was far more costlier than Watt/King discussion. If Casey is in GB then Watt is probably a Packer. GB needed King because Hayward was in San Diego and Randall / Rollins were incredibly miscast as corners by the scouts and TT. Casey leaving set in motion a domino effect similar to drafting the wrong QB in round 1. It takes a long time to correct a mistake like that. You start reaching in future drafts and FA.
The amount of collateral damage from letting Hayward walk because $5 million per year was too steep is staggering.
Still leaves a bitter taste. Hayward being oft injured in GB and Randall and Rollins looking decent their rookie years started the path to poor decision making.
Hayward missed games his 2nd season. Otherwise he's been available every week over 7 years.
IMO. Biggest mistakes made during the MM/TT regime, ranked:
1. Belief that Aaron Rodgers was good enough to save everything.
2. QB room is fine (still ongoing...)
3. Retaining Capers 4 years longer than they should have.
4. Failure to have an adequate backup plan to replace Sitton and Lang.
5. Complete disregard of the importance of solid / reliable ILB play. Desmond Bishop was a long time ago. Putting Clay in the middle was a screaming admission of failure to plan ahead.
6. Letting Hayward walk.
7. Letting Jordy walk.
8. Drafting Khyri Thornton in the 3rd round. I'll never get over this.
9. Letting Clements collect a check while doing nothing for an entire year.
10. Waiting for an interim coach to fire Winston Moss because nobody had the stones to do it years earlier.
20. Watt or King decision.
Disagree on letting jordy walk but the rest are correct, particularly Dom staying past his expiration
The biggest failure in the TT/MM regime, by far, was keeping those dumdums around 3-4 years past their expiration date.
YATittle posted:Disagree on letting jordy walk but the rest are correct, particularly Dom staying past his expiration
MVS, EQ, Moore, Kumerow would all be better today if Jordy had remained a Packer. Adams is a pure Alpha receiver. But you can’t put a cost on Jordys ability to tell the kids they have zero chance with Rodgers unless they put real work in. Jordy was a valuable asset.
In terms of pure talent for talent, King/Watt may not have been the worst mistake of the TT era, but it was the most glaring. It made it clear it was time for TT to move on. Before that, you always gave him the benefit of the doubt. That one made it clear he was losing it. Gute said the whole room was on board with Watt, and TT just had to do his own thing. Okay, but no mas Ted. Thank you for the great things you did, but it's time.
Jordy didn't have much left in the tank and did nothing in Oakland. Not sure how that was a mistake. Packer Hall of Famer for sure but no one plays forever.
ILB was a mess...until they put Matthews there. He looked great in the middle and was a huge dominating presence at ILB. You could almost see opposing QB's intimidation. He reminded me of Urlacher seeing him there, and it revived his career. They should have left him there. There's a top 5 mistake right there in not doing so. His moves on the edge weren't working any more, but leave him in the middle, with Watt on the edge? Scary.
Agree on the domino disaster the secondary became: Randall/Rollins, Hayward, HHCD, heck the entire secondary. No argument there. It all led to King over Watt and the end of the Era. Doesn't get much bigger than that.
I don't think Jordy's 2018 contract number would've been worth keeping just for a year of "coaching up" the younger players.
Hayward missed 13 games in 2013, and then missed all of training camp and OTA's in 2015 after having a screw inserted in his fractured foot. That 4th and final year in GB (2015) was pretty iffy as his playmaking and interception totals plummeted.
Here's an article by McGinn questioning Hayward losing it. Granted, it's McGinn, but I see a lot of hindsight on Hayward cause he turned it on in SanDiego. Don't recall many being upset when he left . He got healthy and got away from Capers and lit it up ....and Randall, Rollins , Capers, Whitt, etc....crashed an burned.
By Bob McGinn of the Journal Sentinel
Green Bay — Casey Hayward's primary attribute appears to have deserted him in his fourth and what might be final season for the Green Bay Packers.
Referred to as a "ball magnet" by cornerbacks coach Joe Whitt since his strong rookie year, Hayward almost never makes a play on the ball anymore and is looking for his first interception since the middle of last season.
Hayward, a second-round draft choice in 2012, became the Packers' first all-rookie team cornerback after intercepting six passes and breaking up 25.
Since then, he has just three interceptions and 14 passes defensed.
"Have injuries robbed Hayward, who is slender and lacks blazing speed (4.52), of the physical edge and nerve required of a play-making cornerback?"
You have a McGinn article for Haywards career in San Diego?
Coaching matters....
I'm forever convinced Dom sold Mike a shitty bill of goods on Casey that he was nothing more than a slot corner that was easily replaceable and Mike went to Ted with that evaluation.
And then Casey led the NFL in Interceptions as an outside corner the next year in San Diego.
I'd love to hear Joe Whitt Jr comment on the exodus of Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde.
Yeah I think my post, and McGinn's article, gives a pretty good sense of what was happening at the time, - some hindsight gets used in regard to Hayward.
No doubt Hayward gets better coaching in SD. No doubt he got healthy after 2 of 4 bad seasons in GB, and proved that he's a great player. My point was that it was not an easy decision at the time as Hayward showed promise but also had some real down moments. Due to health and coaching? Definitely but not as easy of a decision as you make it seem.
You inferred that Hayward was healthy all but 2013 and that's not accurate. After missing 2015 preseason and OTA's he was struggling in his final season....ergo McGinn's article.
Haywards snap count was limited years 3 and 4 because he was viewed as a liability. That's on GB.
In response to the comments you deleted, I never said Abby was the next Antonio Brown. I said Trevor Davis could be. No idea where the Graham blocking comment came from. And Jared Cook isn't missed. The ability to use TE's effectively on a consistent basis was Mikes failure. Tonyan should beat Cooks numbers in this offense. Then again 30 receptions for 370 yards and a TD isn't a a high bar.
Of course, Cook is missed. Most of those 30 catches came in the second half of the season after he returned from an injury, and he was great in the playoffs. Hell, even MM found a way to get Cook the ball.
Thing I most remember about Hayward is he was going to take snaps away from the promising rookie, Quinten Rollins. He probably needed the change in scenery to get his career back on track and the move is only bad with the benefit of hindsight.
Chili, personally I want to move on from the MM/TT era (its time) but I think the 2 things that eventually hurt this team the most was keeping Ernest Dominic Capers around way too long and TT being cheap and not being the best at evaluating defensive talent.
Personally I am done beating the MM/TT era dead horse and its time to see what Gute and MLF can do.
You have to look at your team's history to see what went on there so you can learn from it. If you do not look at the history, you'll end up sounding like a viking fan. Never looking back and afraid of looking back, jealous of everyone else's past and trying to prove their relevancy without any past, whatsoever, to fall back on. It's why the Packers are relevant, today. 13 World Championships says a lot about where a team has been and where it needs to go and works towards. If you have no history, you are all hot air. MM/TT had their moments but a future with that mindset had little to offer as far as future team success went. Now we have Gute and MLF. The future looks good because change is a good thing. We can only hope they bring in the necessary, best people to move us forward. A good start would be to sweep our division, this season. From there, the sky is the limit. GO PACK, GO!
There are so many new faces on this defense like Gary, P. Smith, Z. Smith, Amos, Savage, whoever lines up at ILB next to Martinez and so many holdovers who are expected to play much greater roles like Adams, Tony Brown, and Raven Green that it is difficult to know what to expect this season.
I do expect improvement at outside linebacker and safety, both because of the talent that was added and because Perry, Clay, Josh Jones, Brice, and HHCD are all gone.
