2021 Special Teams Ranked...Packers finish....

@H5 posted:

It's easy to slam coaching, but it is more often players, assignment, or scheme. We heard from MiLF after the DET game about how players (on D)  got outside the scheme/assignment on the big gainers.

Watching the Packers STs, the fuck ups are often from bad angles and over pursuit - at least that's what it looks like. If their scheme sucks, that's on Drayton and LaFleur.

Do your job.

So maybe hiring a better ST coach would help alleviate those problems?  ST is working with the bottom of the roster in the first place with guys swapping in and out as the season progresses.  I would think it's mostly scheme and coaching to make sure you have effective return and coverage units, which would begs the question of why wouldn't you pay for a good ST coach?

You're right, Mayo needs to be involved as well.  Too bad he couldn't hire the guy he wanted.

That used to be a thing right?  Coaches hire their staff?

@michiganjoe posted:

I've read that contract length, the money itself and other factors completely (primarily proximity to Miami) were the reason Rizzi didn't end up in Green Bay. Larger point is really the statue of limitations on attempting to blame Mark Murphy for the poor special teams expired long ago.

Link?

Packers are ranked 32nd in the league in ST and you think the revolving door of suck after not hiring Rizzi absolves the initial fuck up?  Over a decade of ST failure, they have a coveted ST coach they can hire and they let him walk. 

No, if anything it amplifies Murphy's fucking failure.

@PackLandVA posted:

...The HC needs to fix this constant problem this off season.

If MurphyBallz can get out of his way.  When it comes to personnel, those guys need to stay the fuck out of it.  Murphy in particular.  Ballz, just pay MLF's and Gute's choice.  FFS, what might it cost, another 2-4 million?  That's chump change, and it's not capped.  I mean, what is their philosophy - let's hire the 30th best candidate for the job?  It's lunacy.

@Henry posted:

So maybe hiring a better ST coach would help alleviate those problems?  ST is working with the bottom of the roster in the first place with guys swapping in and out as the season progresses.  I would think it's mostly scheme and coaching to make sure you have effective return and coverage units, which would begs the question of why wouldn't you pay for a good ST coach?

You're right, Mayo needs to be involved as well.  Too bad he couldn't hire the guy he wanted.

That used to be a thing right?  Coaches hire their staff?

Exactly.  Either the special teams is made up of the dumbest players I've ever seen, or they're not being coached.  I'm too lazy to provide the link, but there is a quote from from Drayton on Packers.com when the coaches do their weekly press conference, clearly showing Drayton has no clue on how to fix the issues with ST.  He can barely articulate a thought.  I pasted that quote somewhere in this forum in another thread.  He's in way over his head and probably shouldn't be coaching at all.  But then look who hired him as a ST assistant to begin with.

Problem is, when MurphyBallz stuck their asses in where they shouldn't have and let Rizzi go, they didn't give MLF a whole lot of time to find another coach, so right or wrong he chose the devil that he and the ST players knew.  As we all know, that backfired, and it put MLF in a tough situation.  Fire Drayton in the middle of the season?  And get who to replace him?  My guess is Drayton's gone after the season.  He better be.

@packerboi posted:

Please tell me it's David Moore on Saturday and not Rodgers back there...

PLEASE.

The fact that this is in doubt is a troubling sign of the nature of our special teams leadership.

@packerboi posted:

The irony is, should the Packers win the SB with the worst ST's in the league, it will confirm to Murphy that the Packers didn't need to spend the money on a high priced ST coach to win it all.

Tampa ST's sucks, and I am guessing it sucked last year as well. Another example the Packers FO will use to say you don't need to give this unit a high priced coach or pay big money to players to win a ring.

Do I agree with that? No. But that's probably a reality they will point to.   

Well, if we win the Super Bowl, they are right. This, however, is just one of a few reasons I expect this team to fail in the postseason.

Where is you faith brother? 

@ammo posted:

Where is you faith brother?

I don't do faith. Something either is or isn't. My desire to wish it into existence means nothing.

To be, or not to be, that is the question.

@ammo posted:

And what did the 6th place get them,  the only home team to lose in the wild card round.

Pack currently have 52 on the active roster.   If you bring up Cobb, Mercilus and Z that means two  more have to be reassigned or cut.  Maybe MVS if he can't even practice and Yiadom.   If you want to add depth for DL in Anderson and/or McIntosh that means 1 or 2  more have to go. Galeai and Garvin?  Add Moore to the equation and another has to go.

Yes, two more guys are getting cut.

No, one of those guys is not MVS.

Also, they don't have to cut players for the PS elevation. Those are allowed on game day and don't count towards the 53 man roster.

I didn't mean cut as in released or waived. I did say reassigned as in protected practice squad or maybe even injured reserve if he is not able to play the rest of the season.  Get it?

let’s not forget the immortal Steve Ortmayer.

@Henry posted:

So maybe hiring a better ST coach would help alleviate those problems?  ST is working with the bottom of the roster in the first place with guys swapping in and out as the season progresses.  I would think it's mostly scheme and coaching to make sure you have effective return and coverage units, which would begs the question of why wouldn't you pay for a good ST coach?

You're right, Mayo needs to be involved as well.  Too bad he couldn't hire the guy he wanted.

That used to be a thing right?  Coaches hire their staff?

Exactly.   To summarize, you can either blame Gute for having dog shit players at the bottom of the roster or you can blame the Special Teams coach. 

Our scenario is a little unique in that the HC wasn't allowed to hire his preferred candidate 3 years ago.   Not his fault, but then added a huge steamer to the pile of shit by hiring the assistant to the guy he fired.

@Goalline posted:

I don't do faith. Something either is or isn't. My desire to wish it into existence means nothing.

You’re  our Ayn Rand!

Drayton's escalation is a mystery to me.  I have no clue if Mayo thought he was keeping some kind of scheme consistency while thinking Drayton could do better but he was wrong. 

@ammo posted:

I didn't mean cut as in released or waived. I did say reassigned as in protected practice squad or maybe even injured reserve if he is not able to play the rest of the season.  Get it?

You have to cut a player to put them on the PS. They are not cutting MVS. IR would essentially be the same since this is the last year of his contract.

There's another 4 weekends left to this season.

What is the point of having a guy on the 53  that can't play for the playoffs? We need every able body available for these games.   

@packerboi posted:

Softball GB Media won't bring up those rankings to MLF or Mo Drayton but it'd be interesting to hear yet another coach speak n' spin as to why once again they are dead last and full of suck..

   

BK is jealous of that hair.

@ammo posted:

What is the point of having a guy on the 53  that can't play for the playoffs? We need every able body available for these games.   

Where are you reading that he won't be able to play in the playoffs? Lets start with that.

He's doubtful this weekend. That's all I'm aware of for now.

Right there. Doubtful for this weekend. That is not playing in the playoffs.

@BrainDed posted:

Exactly.   To summarize, you can either blame Gute for having dog shit players at the bottom of the roster or you can blame the Special Teams coach.

When you are last in the NFL by a country mile (the gap between #32 GB and #31 was not close), I gotta figure it is neither just the scheme nor just the players but rather both.

And because it has been allowed to be this way for over a decade, while MLF owns the Drayton hiring, it is strong evidence of an organizational failure.

@ammo posted:

Right there. Doubtful for this weekend. That is not playing in the playoffs.

That's missing a game. He's not getting cut or put on IR.

While it would be nice to have a dominant special teams unit (like Desmond Howard) that can win games for you, the real key is to have good enough special teams that they don't end up losing games for you.

In 2014, the Packers didn't need to have outstanding special teams to win in Seattle. They just needed competence in all areas. Micah Hyde's returns and Mason Crosby going 5 for 5 were great. It was the losing plays on the fake FG, the onside kick, and Masthay's 30 yard shank when they were up 19-7 that helped do them in.

It's the same in this year's playoffs. They can't be have Amari Rodgers back there AT ALL when he looks like a 50/50 shot to do the right thing. They can't have the FG unit leave points on the field, and they can't give up huge returns. Whatever you do, you have to do everything you can to make sure special teams doesn't lose you a game you should otherwise win.

One way to address these problems (other than the FG unit) is to play your starters (or at least guys you know won't screw up) on special teams. Instead of Amari Rodgers on kickoff returns, you put Aaron Jones back there. Instead of Amari on punt returns, it should be Cobb. If your outside guys on punt return blocks are constantly getting smoked, you can put Stokes and Douglas out there. They cover outside WRs all the time, and Stokes is the fastest guy oh the field. Why can't he be gunner?

I know everyone is scared of getting their best players hurt on special teams, but that didn't stop teams from putting Deion Sanders in the prime of his career back to return punts. Are guys really that much more likely to get hurt on special teams plays than they are on regular plays? Every play is an opportunity to make a play that swings a game for both teams. Especially once you get to the playoffs, why are the 12-15 special teams plays worth less than the other plays?

Aaron Jones returning kicks is as good an idea as the Giants having Jason Sehorn do it way back when.

Punt gunners often get mauled.  I wouldn't put a #2 CB there.  Stokes is a good idea for the unit because he won't be out run.  Maybe not gunner but for special situation.

@YATittle posted:

Sad but true, but Rodgers makes a lot possible, as do mid-season pickups who play like Rasul Douglas.

If the Packers can happen to pull a championship out of their asses this year, how many little “Rausuls” will be running around town and sledding in GB in 5 years?

@Chongo posted:

Having a HOF MVP QB is great deodorant

I've wondered more than a few times since Murphy has taken the wheel if Rodgers was the main factor of the Packers not becoming the Cubs.

@Herschel posted:

I've wondered more than a few times since Murphy has taken the wheel if Rodgers was the main factor of the Packers not becoming the Cubs.

Look at what McCarthy has done since he left GB, and look what MLF has done his first 3 years in GB...common thread is #12.

A HOF quality signal-caller is the reason teams consistently do well.,, that is true across all successful teams.

During the game vs the Loins, the Packers had an actual punt return that looked competent and confident.
I think it was after the Loins 1st possession after the half, and their punter got off a 67 yard kick. Rodgers squared up to the ball, fielded it, and got a 23 yard return.
I don't believe all the ST problems are suddenly cured, but it was by far the best punt return I've seen this year.

As an aside, whatever happened to Tyler Ervin? I see where he has been FA this year. Did he have an injury that did him in?

Punt return team peaking at just the right time

@Henry posted:

You're right, Mayo needs to be involved as well.  Too bad he couldn't hire the guy he wanted.

Maybe the guy he wanted to hire didn't think much of Pepe'? It was LaFleur first gig is the guy.

I've just found it odd we've heard almost nothing from Rizzi's camp, and the Packers writers provide no "quotes". Always seemed like a lot of speculative journalism based on reading between the lines of what someone inside 1265 said, but was never corroborated.

@Blair Kiel posted:

You’re  our Ayn Rand!

Only hotter.

@SteveLuke posted:

When you are last in the NFL by a country mile (the gap between #32 GB and #31 was not close), I gotta figure it is neither just the scheme nor just the players but rather both.

And because it has been allowed to be this way for over a decade, while MLF owns the Drayton hiring, it is strong evidence of an organizational failure.

Exactly! No one is turning Amari Rodgers into a competent returner.

I look forward to those hard-charging Packer reporters getting to the bottom of the Darren Rizzi story after this debacle ... if they can find the time to get their tongue's out of the FRONT OFFICE'S collective arses that is.

Murph must have given Demovsky the green light to bring out at least a small knife for Gutey and the boys who run personnel:

"Maybe Maurice Drayton was the problem. And Shawn Mennenga the problem before that. And Ron Zook before that. And Shawn Slocum. And Mike Stock. And John Bonamego. And on and on.

The previous seven special teams coordinators in Green Bay have seen their end come in one of two ways: fired or forced into retirement.

“Ted never prioritized special teams and neither does Gutey,” said a longtime NFL agent who has had several players -- including many who have played on special teams -- with the Packers.

https://www.espn.com/blog/gree...cle-this-time-around

When the post-mortem is written on how the Packers managed to get to just 1 SB over the first 21 seasons of the 21st century with Aaron Rodgers and Brett Favre at QB, there will be at least 1 chapter devoted to STs and fans of the Packer FRONT OFFICE will not be please by what it says.

As far as the Wirtel story goes you have to look at Bojo in this whole equation.  He was previously cut specifically because of his holding.  Now the Packers change long snappers with a complete feather weight turd to help accommodate Bojo because he snapped the ball faster?  That's just compounding an issue instead just cutting Bojo and getting a punter that may not be spectacular but is competent with the guy that actually scores you points.

I truly don't believe Crosby was the problem.

@Harry Manback posted:

To be, or not to be, that is the question.

@SteveLuke posted:

“Ted never prioritized special teams and neither does Gutey,” said a longtime NFL agent who has had several players -- including many who have played on special teams -- with the Packers.

This! Moore has a big decent return game one week and they go back to Amari Rodgers who has never had one. This is a problem. Have either guy ever drafted a kick returner?

Here is an article from NINERSNATION detailing how craptastic the San Francisco 49ers were all season generally, and in their playoff win over Dallas specifically.

Yes, that's right how bad the 49ers were supposed to be heading into the game on Saturday night.

"It boggles my mind how poorly this team can be on special teams when you consider how dominant they are on defense and explosive they can be on offense.

49ers head coach Kyle Shanahan spoke about the third phase of the game and where the Niners special teams stand in his mind

“For one, I always feel that way on special teams. My number one goal is to not lose on special teams. It means I’m not just going into games trying to dictate the flow games through fakes. I usually want depend on offense, but special teams, the starting point is to not lose it, to not turn the ball over, to make sure we get the ball back. So, that’s not just because of now.

But yesterday with the special teams, those two plays were huge. Our defense rebounded huge on it, but it did cost us three points on one, on the fake punt. The way we started out that second half, having them backed up. [WR] River [Cracraft] and [LB Mark] Nzeocha, Nzeocha got here two weeks ago, River got off the practice squad about a month ago, and they both have been helping us out a ton on special teams.

They’re two of the guys that have made us improve here over the last month, but they got a little too overzealous trying to block that punt and made a huge mistake. And fortunately, our D went three-and-out after it, but you give a team opportunities like that, it makes it tough to protect that lead like we had. And that would be something that would be very hard to get away with going into Lambeau.”

The 49ers finished the season 29th in weighted DVOA when it comes to special teams. What we saw Sunday wasn’t a one-off example. It was a recurring theme."

I've read in several places that coaching doesn't mean much for special teams.  There aren't many schemes or strategies.  Part of it is motivating.  Part of it is how many back end players you have comprising your special teams vs. starters.  But I look at that listing above and see the likes of the abysmal Giants, Jets, etc. near the top of the list (who don't have talented rosters) and can't be convinced that a good special teams coach doesn't matter much.