300 Game winners

Almost certainly not for the foreseeable future. The most likely candidate would be Kershaw - 140 wins, 29 years old.  But think about this, figure 10 more this year and he's at 150. If he wins 20 games for 7 straight years (something he's only done twice) he's still 10 short. 

I can't reasonably argue anyone else at this point really. If you're really stretching I guess you could throw Felix Hernandez - 158 wins, 31 years old, or Rick Porcello - 111 wins, 28 years old out there?   Maybe Verlander - 178 wins, 34 years old. 

I'd bet against it though.  

Makes Warren Spahn's stats even more remarkable.  He didn't even play from 1943-45 due to WWII service.

From Wiki:

He won 20 games or more in 13 seasons, including a 23–7 record when he was age 42. Spahn was the 1957 Cy Young Award winner (at age 36), and was the runner-up three times, all during the period when one award was given, covering both leagues.

What I find amazing is he was close to getting the Cy Young Award at age 35 (3rd), 37 (2nd);  39  (2nd);   and 40 (2nd) !

Why is it pitchers were workhorses years ago?

Kershaw and Verlander might pitch different (effort) if they knew they were pitching every 3rd day, they would also likely train different.  Velocity was way down, more junk was thrown that was easier on the arm.  If it was 1940, you are not to worried about the second baseman going yard, so you could really go soft on him (and a good part of the line up) and only bear down when guys are in scoring position.  You also likely didn't have a LOOGY or a closer throwing 98 for the manager to use to his advantage.  Lastly, the owner didn't have millions invested in these guys, so they protected their investments different.  

And Nolan Ryan was an outlier, a pitcher who could throw gas all day long every day.  People shouldn't look at Nolan Ryan and say "Why can't guys do that today?".  

I still am surprised though, that with all the sport science we have today, all the training, and video, and nutrition, that guys still end up on the DL as much as they do.  Don't get me wrong, 162 is a grind and unless you've done it, you have no idea (how many times have you heard, "Oh, I could do it, it's just baseball").   

El-Keston-Hiura posted:

Lastly, the owner didn't have millions invested in these guys, so they protected their investments different.  

I wonder if someone in a smaller market has thought about how much real value there is in the same protection of pitchers, should you happen upon the next Kershaw. Not necessarily rushing them to the bigs, but after getting there, I can imagine that the innings limits, pitch counts, etc (that are of questionable value to begin with as there's little/no data backing it up) could be seen as even less value for an Oakland, Milwaukee, etc that honestly has NO shot whatsoever are resigning a guy like that.

If you have the potential to win, why not go full out Dusty Baker and ride that guy for as much as you can within reason. Example - there should be NO reason at all for Milwaukee to baby Strasburg and sit him IN THE FREAKING PLAYOFFS because of an arbitrary innings count you think will protect him (oh and he got hurt anyway...)  Pitch your best pitcher, as you may not get a shot at winning it all again once he's gone. If you're a big money team, the equation obviously changes, but if we're talking maximizing your value - Milwaukee shutting him down in the hopes that he will be healthy 8 years down the line is silly, as you most certainly will not have him for a 2nd contract.  

Tons of variables of course, shot at winning vs protecting trade value, big money vs smaller market, etc.  

Not advocating it per se, but it's an interesting thought exercise. At least to me. 

These are good points. It's basically what the Brewers did to Ben Sheets. When he was 23, 24, and 25 years old the Brewers ran him out there for 102 starts and 683 total innings and 7 complete games. It was a total waste of effort given how terrible those teams were. He only had one more year after that where he threw more than 160 innings (not coincidentally 2008 when he helped get the Brewers to the playoffs).

If the Brewers would have been guaranteed they'd have him for a 12 year career would they have run up that number of innings? Probably not. Look at the year he had in 2004 as a 25 year old.

237 innings

264 strikeouts, 34 walks

0.983 WHIP

He lead the league in SO/BB, was second in the league in WHIP, 4th in the league in SO/IP, 3rd in the league in IP, 2nd in the league in complete games (5), and 2nd in the league in WAR (7.2).

He did all of that to end up with a 12-14 record for a team that went 67-94. He broke down after that. If they handle him differently and he stays healthy, he probably would have made about 100 million more in his career.

The Crew road Sabathia hard, likely knowing there was no chance in re-signing him, so the small market theory isn't crazy.  

I think the whole business of the game is different now, not to protect the player per se, but to protect the investment.  When people get all misty eyed about how tough the old timey players were, they forget about the guys with blown out elbows who never amounted to much cause their arm was shot.  

I believe there are transcendent players, but if you put some of today's players in the game 40 years ago, you would notice a stark difference.  

El-Keston-Hiura posted:

The Crew road Sabathia hard, likely knowing there was no chance in re-signing him, so the small market theory isn't crazy.  

 

I will always have the utmost respect for CC accepting this and seemingly wanting the ball knowing the millions he had on the line…

I was 13 when Spahnie recorded his 300drth victory and was at the game against the Cubs...great memory.

MichiganPacker posted:

Look at the year he had in 2004 as a 25 year old.

237 innings

264 strikeouts, 34 walks

0.983 WHIP

He lead the league in SO/BB, was second in the league in WHIP, 4th in the league in SO/IP, 3rd in the league in IP, 2nd in the league in complete games (5), and 2nd in the league in WAR (7.2).

If he was coming off that season in 2017, and as a team you were coming off 4 years where you didn't win more than 68 games, you would absolutely move him for prospects. Clear 1-2 starter, 25 years old? Today, 25 year old Ben Sheets would bring back an absolute HAUL. A freaking HAUL.

But, keep in mind that in 2004, teams were living in a time where they still thought they could keep guys like Sheets for multiple contracts.  Add in that in 2004 there was still a lot of overvalue in Wins over things like WHIP/FIP/Etc etc, so would have probably had to deal with much more of the "DERP he's a <.500 pitcher, you can have my 12th best prospect and nothing more" mentality than you would today.  

SanDiegoPackFan posted:

 

Why is it pitchers were workhorses years ago?

I have been wondering this for a long time. I am a bit of a baseball nerd and I find it fascinating that really not hat long ago pitchers started more games, finished more games, and didn't have pitch counts like pitchers do today.  Anyhow with that being said I don't think we will see a 300 win pitcher again for a while and like El Keston Hiura said I think franchises are very inclined to protect their investments (especially front line starters) that I think 300 wins might be something we could possibly never see again.

On July 31st, 1990 Nolan Ryan got his 300th win which happened at County Stadium.

7 no-hitters. 12 one-hitters. pic.twitter.com/CCQi25Z6al

— Super 70s Sports (@Super70sSports) January 19, 2022

The fastball gets the glory, and rightfully so, but the pitch that made Nolan Ryan so tough was the curve. You're all locked in for a 102 mph fastball and ... ploop. Sit down.

pic.twitter.com/HZqDvRlIEB

— Super 70s Sports (@Super70sSports) January 16, 2022

Nolan Ryan, at age 44, caps his 7th career no-hitter with his 16th strikeout of the night. And I guarantee he gave no fucks about his pitch count. pic.twitter.com/vbThrFWvZu

— Super 70s Sports (@Super70sSports) January 14, 2022

@San Doggy posted:

On July 31st, 1990 Nolan Ryan got his 300th win which happened at County Stadium.

I KNEW that brought back a bad memory….no, I wasn’t there (I was for Yount’s 3000 though) but I collect Braves/Packers/Brewers stuff. Bought this on EBay and like an idiot, scissored off a portion of the certificate  when I opened the envelope.

Dope.

You can make a new, and frankly better, one in like MS Paint.

Or buy another for $12 on EBay.