Apologizing for Dom

I don't think McCarthy scapegoats anyone, he fired Slocum with cause. He replaced Clements with cause. He fired two assistant coaches because their position groups badly underachieved. I don't want to argue about the pros/cons of Dom Capers for the 10,000th time, but this defense should realistically be a top 10 unit barring injury...I'm not sure the answer is there at ILB yet which is such a crucial position, but I like the skill set Martinez brings and the fact that he's a true ILB, not a convert. If anyone is going to be the answer at ILB it will be him. If ILB improves at all then there's no reason this defense shouldn't be in the top 10 or top 5. If they finish the season outside the top 10, if the defense blows it in the playoffs, then yeah I think McCarthy will have cause to fire him. 

I honestly do not think that McCarthy will scapegoat Dom I really don't.  I of course do not know the inner workings of the team but I get the feeling that Mike likes having continuity and likes having a DC he can trust.  And if he wanted to make Dom a scapegoat he would have already done that.

I agree that if this defense can stay healthy I really do believe they have the potential  to be top 10 easily. 

There's only so much Dom can do with what he has in the front seven, which is Matthews, an undersized Daniels, an old Peppers and a bunch of guys. Maybe Clark will break that trend and maybe Martinez will be able to cover one of us, that would be huge, but imagine that defense without Capers and Joe Whitt.

I just found it amusing this author had to go back to essentially his 1st 1-2 seasons to find examples of what he's done well (and minimal examples at that) and didn't cite anything sooner or current except maybe Matthews moving to ILB. IMO, I think Capers is good when:

1.) Nearly all if not every starter he has is healthy and playing.

2.) He's coordinating with a lead (it's where his creativity/blitzing excels).

3.) Like Lebow, he has a fair amount of veterans rather than a fairly young defense. He has that with Peppers, CMIII, Shields, Daniels, Jones, etc more so than he has in previous years. This is a fairly decent mix of vets and youngsters.

I am not ignoring that TT for example simply doesn't value ILB. That's not on Capers, that's on TT.  And when you look at marquee defenses like Carolina, Denver, Seattle, Bengals, and Chiefs ....what they have in common is a stellar/pro bowl level ILBs with good speed.

But I do wonder if criteria's 1-3 that I listed above are all met with other DC's in the league, how many would do  at least  as good as Capers if not better.

Agree, this D should be top 10. With the talent level they have (very good but not great), and considering the Offense should put pressure on the opposing team to score, that will present opportunities on Defense when the opponents become more 1 dimensional.

One comment from the article Cory "Gravedigger" JennerJohn wrote... it is the 'Fire ****q.ing Capers" fan club.  We prefer to have our name recognized accurately in print.  

packerboi posted:

I just found it amusing this author had to go back to essentially his 1st 1-2 seasons to find examples of what he's done well (and minimal examples at that) and didn't cite anything sooner or current except maybe Matthews moving to ILB. IMO, I think Capers is good when:

1.) Nearly all if not every starter he has is healthy and playing.

2.) He's coordinating with a lead (it's where his creativity/blitzing excels).

3.) Like Lebow, he has a fair amount of veterans rather than a fairly young defense. He has that with Peppers, CMIII, Shields, Daniels, Jones, etc more so than he has in previous years. This is a fairly decent mix of vets and youngsters.

I am not ignoring that TT for example simply doesn't value ILB. That's not on Capers, that's on TT.  And when you look at marquee defenses like Carolina, Denver, Seattle, Bengals, and Chiefs ....what they have in common is a stellar/pro bowl level ILBs with good speed.

But I do wonder if criteria's 1-3 that I listed above are all met with other DC's in the league, how many would do  at least  as good as Capers if not better.

History tells us otherwise;

1) In our last Super Bowl season we had 11 defensive players on Injured Reserve & still finished with a top 5 defense.

3) Throughout Capers career his defenses have typically peaked within his first three years, regardless of how many veterans, or experience with the defense the players have. 

FLPACKER posted:

1) In our last Super Bowl season we had 11 defensive players on Injured Reserve & still finished with a top 5 defense.

. 

I've wondered if this is an issue for the Wizard.

In that season he had no choice but to let younger or unproven players just play. Capers schemes a lot, and when staffed appropriately the scheme succeeds. But when he loses a seasoned player here or there it seems he continues to force feed the scheme and does not adjust/work to the replacements strengths. This could be a bit of oldschool my way or the hi-way thinking.

The 2010 defense also had Charles Woodson, Clay, Jenkins, Nick Collins, A healthy Bishop, Shields and Tramon. Lots of good players. 

The 2010 offense also put a lot of pressure on opposing teams to play pinball football. p-boi's point #2.

History tells us otherwise;

3) Throughout Capers career his defenses have typically peaked within his first three years, regardless of how many veterans, or experience with the defense the players have. 

I'm not disputing the above. But your points don't counter what I posted either. I agree, Capers D typically peaks within the 1st 2 years. Then opposing offenses tend to figure him out.

With the exception of losing Barrington for the year last season, he had a pretty healthy defense. They finished 12th in points allowed (20.2) which to me is the main stat that matters. They were lousy against the run and fairly good against the pass.

But give another coordinator like Dan Quinn, John Fox, Mike Zimmer, Lovie, Rex Ryan a healthy defense like GB had 2015 with a solid mix of vets/youth I do wonder if they would produce better results. Capers D made noodle arm Manning look all-world last season..about the only coordinator who did so. Carson Palmer, who has a history of schitting the bed in the playoffs, got Capers D to absolutely brain fart in overtime. Palmer was utterly embarrassing the following week at Carolina.  Then there is Colin Kaeperdick who should get on his knees and kiss Capers feet.

It would have been tough for any coordinator to get a lot out of the Packers 2015 d-line. It all went to **** when Raji hurt his groin and the rushing yards against started piling up. I didn't realize Raji's currently working a 35 game streak without a sack. Outside of Daniels the d-line has been pretty much horrible. Clark has to change that. No pressure rook. 

Hungry5 posted:

FLPACKER posted:

1) In our last Super Bowl season we had 11 defensive players on Injured Reserve & still finished with a top 5 defense.

. 

I've wondered if this is an issue for the Wizard.

In that season he had no choice but to let younger or unproven players just play. Capers schemes a lot, and when staffed appropriately the scheme succeeds. But when he loses a seasoned player here or there it seems he continues to force feed the scheme and does not adjust/work to the replacements strengths. This could be a bit of oldschool my way or the hi-way thinking.

Good point, I've often wondered if the scheme & adjustments are at times too much for the players to conceptually handle, thus blown coverages, etc. We did seem to see less of that last season. When implementing any scheme, the coach has to consider: 1) Are the players able to physically do what you are asking them to? 2) Are the players mentally able to do what you are asking them to?  

Cory "Gravedigger" JennerJohn

Didn't GraveDigger refute the meme about the Capers' D's peaking in the 1st few seasons? 

Capers is good against mediocre or worse qb's, simple as that. 

Cam Newton, Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Matt Ryan, Carson Palmer, Russell Wilson, Kurt Warner, Alex Smith, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Joe Flacco, Donnavan McNabb, Tom Brady.

They've all lost to Dom. Sometimes the offense bailed Dom out. Sometimes Dom shut those guys down on his own. 

C'mon man.

Hungry5 posted:

FLPACKER posted:

1) In our last Super Bowl season we had 11 defensive players on Injured Reserve & still finished with a top 5 defense.

. 

I've wondered if this is an issue for the Wizard.

In that season he had no choice but to let younger or unproven players just play. Capers schemes a lot, and when staffed appropriately the scheme succeeds. But when he loses a seasoned player here or there it seems he continues to force feed the scheme and does not adjust/work to the replacements strengths. This could be a bit of oldschool my way or the hi-way thinking.

Are you are insinuating that I taught Dom how to play defense when he was a little kid?

packerboi posted:

But give another coordinator like Dan Quinn, John Fox, Mike Zimmer, Lovie, Rex Ryan a healthy defense like GB had 2015 with a solid mix of vets/youth I do wonder if they would produce better results. Capers D made noodle arm Manning look all-world last season..about the only coordinator who did so. Carson Palmer, who has a history of schitting the bed in the playoffs, got Capers D to absolutely brain fart in overtime. Palmer was utterly embarrassing the following week at Carolina.  Then there is Colin Kaeperdick who should get on his knees and kiss Capers feet.

That's not really fair. The Cardinals didn't "out scheme" the defense, it was a blown coverage and an insane amount of poorly tackling. It is possible that a blown coverage is just a blown coverage, it doesn't have to be a deeper philosophical issue with scheme or coaching or whatever. One play can decide a game, is the Cardinals DC a dolt because his All-Pro DB allowed a hail-mary completion to a guy who started the year as the Packers 6th WR in year 2 from Saginaw Valley St.? That's a pretty pitiful completion to give up. No he's a good coach, it was just a blown coverage. It happens. If Capers D is the reason this team doesn't win a SB then I'm sure he will be let go and will be justified.  That wasn't the case in 2015 and he wasn't fired. 

One play can decide a game, is the Cardinals DC a dolt because his All-Pro DB allowed a hail-mary completion to a guy who started the year as the Packers 6th WR in year 2 from Saginaw Valley St.? That's a pretty pitiful completion to give up. No he's a good coach, it was just a blown coverage.

Not really a blown coverage. DB was there, just got out-athleted. Maybe Janis wanted it more, or prayed more.

He wasn't in position to make the play is the point. That doesn't fall on the coordinator.

packerboi posted:

His premise is if the Packers fail to make a deep playoff run/SB, Dom's getting the ax.

 

Man, don't tease me like that.  

Grave Digger posted:

He wasn't in position to make the play is the point. That doesn't fall on the coordinator.

What does fall on the coordinator?

Asking for a friend

Al, if the coordinator is a coed.

What responsibility falls on the shoulders of these world class athlete millionaires? I think I've answered the question about what I think falls on the coordinator multiple times through the years, but you have consistently dodged that question. It seems you believe the coach is responsible for everything from on-field hand holding to making sure their belly fire is full as if to say these world class athletes just need to show up and go where the coach points to on the field. They're multimillionaires ranging in age from 21 to 35, if they can't execute the scheme they are being paid to execute then they are the problem. At a minimum in general I think coaches are responsible for studying and preparing a gameplan, they prepare the the players for where to be and how to react in meetings, they push players to improve fundamental techniques on the practice field, and they decide who is on the field and when based on the situation.

Not sure how you would know how good of a study or gameplanner he is or how well they are are preparing players, but those arguments are fair game. If you don't think he's playing the right players at the right time then that's a legit complaint IMO. I think he's playing his best available players at generally the right time. Saying he's responsible when Casey Hayward is slow trailing Larry Fitzgerald and it leads to a big play is wrong in my opinion. Hayward (or whoever it was) knew what to do and just failed. I don't think it's more complicated than that.  

Good points.  I've always asserted that players are toddlers and must be hand held til retirement.  

Now that this is cleared up, I'm off to count the dues to the "Fire ****.qing Capers" club (I'm not a fast counter in the first place, but enrollment is through the roof)

Dom has been here for seven seasons and the defense has been consistently mediocre or worse. Maybe it is the players more than him, but that's usually the case and yet coaches get fired all the time. The NFL is a bottom-line business and the bottom line is the Packers haven't been good enough on defense since the Super Bowl.

What old retread should they have hired?

I really don't know wether to answer "Belichick" or "Jorts" here?

They've finished lower than 13th in points only twice in 7 years, with an average ranking of 12th. You could maybe make a case for mediocre with that ranking, but not consistently worse. It shouldn't be surprising that the D jumped from 24th in points in 2013 to 13th in 2014 after replacing Mike Neal, MD Jennings, and 30 year old Johnny Jolly with Julius Peppers, Haha Clinton-Dix, and Letroy Guion. Dom didn't need to dumb down the scheme and motivate them like he did the guys they replaced I guess.

Tackling has been more of an issue than the scheme in the past.  A lot of the culprits are no longer on the team.  I expect this D to be a championship caliber defense if healthy. There is some young talent ready to roll.  I'm excited. 

The Packers haven't had a good defense since 2010. Make all the excuses for Dom you want, but that's a long time ago.

Grave Digger posted:

 replacing Mike Neal, MD Jennings, and 30 year old Johnny Jolly with Julius Peppers, Haha Clinton-Dix, and Letroy Guion. 

Everyone knew a 34 year old Peppers, Rookie HaHa (Dom needs vets, not rookies) and viking castoff Guion would turn the defense around.  

I think 2014 was the year he started talking to players.  

El-Ka-Bong posted:

I really don't know wether to answer "Belichick" or "Jorts" here?

El-Ka-Bong posted:

Grave Digger posted:

 replacing Mike Neal, MD Jennings, and 30 year old Johnny Jolly with Julius Peppers, Haha Clinton-Dix, and Letroy Guion. 

Everyone knew a 34 year old Peppers, Rookie HaHa (Dom needs vets, not rookies) and viking castoff Guion would turn the defense around.  

I think 2014 was the year he started talking to players.  

I knew they would be better because it seemed impossible they could be worse...

GBFanForLife posted:

What old retread should they have hired?

Better to just stick with the old retread we have now! 

Good thinking!

Can "championship caliber" D have lapses in crunch time?  The 2014/15 D was playing better than the offense at the end of the year and into the playoffs.  They had their foot on SEA's throat for 50m.  Hell, if you subtract 2 giant ST's gaffes they still did enough to win that game.  They should have beat NE two weeks later.

That F game will live longer and harder than 4th and 26.

The path from scheme to execution looks something like this.