Seems like game Giannis gets called for an offensive foul that’s worthy of a reversal.
LaMelo Ball gets the Giannis often does it (and when Giannis does he can't hit the FTs anway)
Bryan Forbes passes up Giannis on the roll in the paint to take a baseline 15 footer (miss), then doesn’t even attempt to help the other way and they get a layup in transition.
GET HIM THE FUCK OFF THE FLOOR!
Divincenzo’s inability to shoot is making Connaughton the choice down the stretch here.
Weak ass shit down the stretch... they’re able to summon the energy to finish plays, the Bucks cannot.
The Bucks choke this away and Bud waves the white flag with 90 seconds left.
Giannis with another good stat line that doesn't reflect just some terrible plays. Can't hit FTs. Turnovers in the halfcourt.
Bucks give up 21 3 pointers tonight.
Giannis goes 10 for 18 from the line.
I think the Bucks will make the playoffs, but they are much more likely to miss the playoffs than win a title this year.
Absolutely bullshit... you get run out of the gym on back to back nights. That means you’re weak. This team is mentally weak.
Bucs are going to regret not trading Giannis. Limited player.
@Music City posted:Divincenzo’s inability to shoot is making Connaughton the choice down the stretch here.
DDV with an 0 for 6 night. He's venturing into unplayable territory.
THe Bucks are in big trouble. 2-4 in their last 6 and not improving at all.
When does Bud's seat get hot?
3 point defense in their last 5 losses.
Hornets 21 for 43
Pelicans 21 for 48
Lakers 19 for 37
Nets 15 for 31
Jazz 25 for 53
Another piss poor defensive effort. 21 3s allowed. It’s almost becoming normal for this team to give up 50% or so shooting from beyond the arc.
And 16 turnovers. Since the season started back up last year this team has a problem turning it over.
Pat C with 29 minutes?
I think the Coach Bud experiment may be close to an end. His system has been exposed and does not adjust at all.
The Bucks are 11-8.
They've beaten the Pistons, the worst team in the league, 3 times.
They beat the Hawks on a night they sat Trae Young and some others out.
The season is more than a quarter over. This is past the time when they need to have gelled. You expect some losses to teams like the Lakers. You can't be a title contender and lose to teams like the Pelicans and Hornets.
I overall like Middleton but he really isn't much of a defender at this point. Butler used him in the Miami series and he looked two steps slow tonight. Hayward outplayed him on both ends of the floor. I love Lopez as a person and he took us to another level but I am afraid he may be a dinosaur on D at this point. It's a run and gun 3 point league and we are not going to beat any team playing small ball with decent 3 point shooting (see Miami last year). Let's hope this current disaster leads us to some major experimentation and Bud truly trying everything under the kitchen sink.
@Tschmack posted:Another piss poor defensive effort. 21 3s allowed. It’s almost becoming normal for this team to give up 50% or so shooting from beyond the arc.
And 16 turnovers. Since the season started back up last year this team has a problem turning it over.
Pat C with 29 minutes?
I think the Coach Bud experiment may be close to an end. His system has been exposed and does not adjust at all.
Connaughton was great tonight. Portis was also great.
You know who wasn't.
Look at these +/- ratings
Augustin was -21 in 4 minutes (HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE? It's the equivalent of losing a 48-minute game by 252 points)
Forbes was -31 in 11 minutes. That's the equivalent of losing a game by 135 points.
Torrey Craig was -12 in 7 minutes. That's an 82 point deficit over a whole game.
DDV was -12 in 27 minutes and that doesn't capture how poorly he played.
@Goalline posted:Bucs are going to regret not trading Giannis. Limited player.
To paraphrase Bill Walsh's famous quote about Steve DeBerg
Right now Giannis is playing just well enough to get you beat. The FTs just kill momentum. And that is probably never getting better at this point. It's been almost a three-season problem.
@The Crusher posted:I overall like Middleton but he really isn't much of a defender at this point. Butler used him in the Miami series and he looked two steps slow tonight. Hayward outplayed him on both ends of the floor. I love Lopez as a person and he took us to another level but I am afraid he may be a dinosaur on D at this point. It's a run and gun 3 point league and we are not going to beat any team playing small ball with decent 3 point shooting (see Miami last year). Let's hope this current disaster leads us to some major experimentation and Bud truly trying everything under the kitchen sink.
Middleton wasn't the problem on defense. Hayward wasn't scoring on him. They were just running high screen actions and DDV, Forbes, Augustin, and Craig were playing defense like they were in a YMCA rec league.
As soon as Craig has to dribble he looks like he barely belongs on a G league team.
Augustin is washed up. They are on the hook for him at 7 million this year and next.
Forbes is a Tony Snell clone without the defense.
The impending disaster is if Jrue Holiday opts out and goes elsewhere next year and the Bucks get nothing in return.
Paschke and Marcus Johnson were talking about a comment that Giannis made- that “if teams have to set franchise records from three to beat us, he’ll take it.” That is an unthinkable statement to make.
Giannis needs better coaching. This is what we’re seeing now- Budenholzer needs to be on a short fucking leash at this point. Giannis is a loyal dude- but he doesn’t know the NBA game. He’s being lead down the wrong path by a guy that the league has figured out. Like his loyalty to Kidd... it’s misplaced. A guy like LeBron wouldn’t put up with this bullshit. For better or worse, NBA stars are not going to put up with it.
It’s really hard to watch this shit and not think that the decision maker is clueless. Maybe foolishly stubborn... maybe just stupid. Doesn’t matter- he needs to coach this team like his career depended on it... or he’ll never get another head coaching gig again.
But I really don’t think he will. He’s likely pointing to the top rating over the last 2 years. That’s it’s something about the pieces and so on. But it’s not- they just caught up. And maybe it has something to do with the crowdless and quiet arenas- that the shooting %s will drop back down once arenas are full and buzzing again. I am just not sure how this can end any other way... he needs to be let go.
@Goalline posted:Bucs are going to regret not trading Giannis. Limited player.
Come on, man... you don’t really think this, do you? He’s a physically dominant player on both ends. But he’s not LeBron. That’s who everyone wants him to play like, but that’s not him.
He needs a team. And realistically the starting 5 is on par with everyone else. The rest? Well... last night was not the first night the bench was a certified shit show...
I guess I'm not disappointed YouTube TV isn't carrying Fox Sports Wisconsin. Following the game threads sounds like it's saving me a lot of aggravation. Unfortunately, I think the Brew Crew is in for a similar season...
@Music City posted:Come on, man... you don’t really think this, do you? He’s a physically dominant player on both ends. But he’s not LeBron. That’s who everyone wants him to play like, but that’s not him.
He needs a team. And realistically the starting 5 is on par with everyone else. The rest? Well... last night was not the first night the bench was a certified shit show...
Well, someone better take a big pay cut to form a team with him. There are less than a handful of players that can drive a team to an NBA championship and he ain't one of those guys.
@Goalline posted:Well, someone better take a big pay cut to form a team with him. There are less than a handful of players that can drive a team to an NBA championship and he ain't one of those guys.
I don’t think this is true either. But LeBron, Kawhi, AD, and whoever else is in your “handful of guys” didn’t do it without players.
We shouldn’t be questioning Giannis’ “greatness”, we should be questioning whether the rest are good enough- including the coach.
Giannis is a good soldier. He’s a different breed of player... and that is both good and bad. He’s loyal, but that also means that he’ll blindly follow a coach into mediocrity. The Bucks play basketball without any identity. They’re figuring that out- but I don’t think Budenholzer will be around when that day comes.
@Music City posted:Come on, man... you don’t really think this, do you? He’s a physically dominant player on both ends. But he’s not LeBron. That’s who everyone wants him to play like, but that’s not him.
He needs a team. And realistically the starting 5 is on par with everyone else. The rest? Well... last night was not the first night the bench was a certified shit show...
The Bucks top 3 players are all top 25-30 players in the league. Lopez is a fine in his role. Bobby Portis has been as good as any 3/4 you can find off the bench in the league. Pat Connaughton is also fine in his role - which is supposed to be the 9th or 10th guy off the bench that can give you 10-12 minutes of energy.
So what are the underlying problems? It's combination of about 3 major issues and a few minor ones.
Major Issues
1. 3 point defense Part A. Individually, Giannis and Holiday are two of the best defensive players in the league. Middleton is better than average and Lopez is an elite rim protection. But the Bucks constantly get lit up by teams because of Bud's scheme and the weakness of the 5th starter and the guards off the bench. The plays that free shooters for open 3s aren't complicated. Many times last night it was simple ball screens at the top of the key. Marques Johnson diagrammed one of the them where DDV dropped back about 5 feet on a shooter at the top of the key with both Giannis and Lopez behind him. There was no reason at all not to be aggressively contesting, but even the guards seem to be taught to drop on that screen and then try to recover. If that's the scheme, it's idiotic to do that in today's NBA. Middleton would average 40 if he played against that the Bucks own scheme. Then, if a guy does drive and is being played one-on-one by anyone - even by Giannis or Lopez, the guy on the strong side always goes to help or at least dig and leaves the corner 3 open. Why? Take your chances with Giannis and Lopez one on one. Why give up a wide-open corner 3 to guys that make them at about a 40% clip (60% true shooting percentage) to help out on a guy trying to get a shot off against a 7 footer (or even Middleton who has a 7 foot wing span) when it's at best a 45% chance of making that shot?
2. Three point defense Part B. Augustin and Forbes are terrible fits for this defensive scheme. George Hill was the guy often closing out on these shots and he has a 6'9" wingspan. Augustin is 5'10 if he's lucky and Forbes is a soft 6'3". Kyle Korver put up more resistance than these two. Augustin in particular was a terrible free-agent decision (at least Forbes doesn't cost much). Augustin is getting 7 million a year to get abused on defense.
3. DDV. I think it's getting very close to being the time to pull the plug on him. He's been unplayable this month. He still brings defensive energy, but he's terrible finishing near the rim and if misses 3s he gives you nothing on offense. He's this year's Wes Matthews (who by advanced stats was one of the worst players in the league last year).
Other problems. Giannis FTs. Torrey Craig offensive liabilities make Eric Bledsoe look like an All-Star. Giannis deer in headlights body language when he's in the halfcourt in the 4th quarter.
How do you fix it? I think you have to move on from Bud. Teams are just following what the Raptors and Heat did to the Bucks in the playoffs because it works. When a team is less than the sum of its parts (and that is clearly the case right now), that's coaching.
The other thing is whether you can package some combination of DDV (4 million), Augustin (7 million), and Wilson (5 million) for a player that you can count on. Music suggested Covington, but maybe PJ Tucker is availble?
The knock on Craig has always been his offense- that’s why he played 18 min/game last year on a title contender, and was allowed to walk for almost nothing. When everyone was clambering for him to play over Thanasis, Bud may have been holding off for a reason.
But what can they do with the roster? There are no trades to make. They have no 1st rounders for the next 5 years, and none of the players they would be willing to part with have value. The Bucks get their limitations thrown in their face every friggin game, so unless Bud has an ace up his sleeve, this ship may be listing to the side a couple years while they re-tool.
As soon as the Bucks start switching Brook Lopez becomes a total liability, and offensively he misses too many open 3s and slows them down in transition. So do you dangle him out there for some length/athleticism that isn’t a total liability on the offensive end? I don’t think you’ll find anyone dumb enough. The best you can do at this stage is trade bad $$$ for bad $$$ and hope you catch a guy that just happens to fit right.
@Music City posted:The knock on Craig has always been his offense- that’s why he played 18 min/game last year on a title contender, and was allowed to walk for almost nothing. When everyone was clambering for him to play over Thanasis, Bud may have been holding off for a reason.
But what can they do with the roster? There are no trades to make. They have no 1st rounders for the next 5 years, and none of the players they would be willing to part with have value. The Bucks get their limitations thrown in their face every friggin game, so unless Bud has an ace up his sleeve, this ship may be listing to the side a couple years while they re-tool.
As soon as the Bucks start switching Brook Lopez becomes a total liability, and offensively he misses too many open 3s and slows them down in transition. So do you dangle him out there for some length/athleticism that isn’t a total liability on the offensive end? I don’t think you’ll find anyone dumb enough. The best you can do at this stage is trade bad $$$ for bad $$$ and hope you catch a guy that just happens to fit right.
Lopez is necessary for any matchup with Embiid.
Other than that, he's a liability against small-ball lineups.
Maybe- but that would be Giannis’ assignment- and that’s also something gaining momentum from a whisper to a scream- Giannis must be the guy to take on the opponent’s toughest assignment. AD, Embiid, Jokic... whoever it is.
But the truth may lie in the possibility that the coaches feel they are protecting him. I sure as fuck hope not... you get a $250M contract, it’s time to be that guy.
According to the NBA ESPN trade machine, a DDV and DJW for PJ Tucker deal would work.
On the surface, it seems like a lot to give up for Tucker, but here’s what he would do for you.
1) he’s a good 3pt shooter
2) he’s very underrated defensively and can guard multiple positions
3) he’s fiery and competitive- basically he’s the anti Bucks
I would hate to give up on DDV but right now he’s killing this team offensively. He’s on offense what Forbes and Augustin are defensively.
The other good thing about Tucker is his contract is up after the season.
@Tschmack posted:According to the NBA ESPN trade machine, a DDV and DJW for PJ Tucker deal would work.
On the surface, it seems like a lot to give up for Tucker, but here’s what he would do for you.
1) he’s a good 3pt shooter
2) he’s very underrated defensively and can guard multiple positions
3) he’s fiery and competitive- basically he’s the anti Bucks
I would hate to give up on DDV but right now he’s killing this team offensively. He’s on offense what Forbes and Augustin are defensively.
The other good thing about Tucker is his contract is up after the season.
I expected DDV to become something like Tyler Herro became. Maybe not quite that good, but a high energy guy who could give you some quick offense off the bench. It just hasn't happened. The other thing about him is that he's not some young player anymore. He just turned 24 and has had 6 years of elite-level coaching (3 years in the NBA and 3 years at Villanova). It's not like he came in as some 19-year-old 1-and-done with 5 months of exposure to college coaching. Those 19-year-old guys tend to have a much higher likelihood of improving (and becoming stronger physically). It was the same thing for DJ Wilson. He was at Michigan for 3 years and has been in the NBA for 4 seasons now. He's not likely ever going to get better, either.
Since the Bucks became a contender, they've prioritized drafting guys that have a chance to contribute something right away, but where the Bucks draft outside the lottery that means those guys have limitiations and are older.
DDV is 24 and he's the second-youngest guy on the roster (Nwora is 22). The other guys they took fliers on this year are all older than DDV.
@Tschmack posted:I would hate to give up on DDV but right now he’s killing this team offensively. He’s on offense what Forbes and Augustin are defensively.
I'd add that while DDV is very good defensively pressuring the ball and getting in passing lanes, he's been one of the chief culprits on dropping and giving up open 3s. Maybe he's just playing the scheme, but he's been a problem there too.
It’s been shocking just how up and down DDV has been last year and this year. Before C19 hit, he was a key contributor and playing well. Once the bubble took hold, he was awful.
Fast forward to this year, and he came out of the gate on fire. Through the first 6 game he was shooting like 60% from 3pt range. Since New Years, he’s 16/60 (25%) and in the last 4 games he’s 3/17 (18%). That’s atrocious.
That being said, he does have trade value because he’s good defensively, has a team friendly contract, and is a decent athlete with good size and length.
@Tschmack posted:It’s been shocking just how up and down DDV has been last year and this year. Before C19 hit, he was a key contributor and playing well. Once the bubble took hold, he was awful.
Fast forward to this year, and he came out of the gate on fire. Through the first 6 game he was shooting like 60% from 3pt range. Since New Years, he’s 16/60 (25%) and in the last 4 games he’s 3/17 (18%). That’s atrocious.
That being said, he does have trade value because he’s good defensively, has a team friendly contract, and is a decent athlete with good size and length.
His shooting is even more atrocious when you consider that almost every 3 he takes is uncontested.
His other offensive problem is that he has trouble finishing near the rim. It seems every game he makes a great move to get to the rim 1-2 times a game and then can't hit the layup after getting bumped or getting into traffic. It's like he's the anti-Jrue Holiday in that regard.
Lots of talk of patience while the team gets through this adjustment period together. You hope this is true... but since the way they’re losing has an all too familiar ring, we should be awfully skeptical that this is some “transition”.
But it is worth noting- the Lakers had a few rough patches last year, including the point last year in DEC when they came to Fiserv and lost to Milwaukee (they lost 4 in a row). Then in January they had a stretch where they went 5-5. That was 9 losses over the better part of a month.
I guess like everyone I need to step back off the ledge a bit. It’s still frustrating, though...
It’s a weird season.
Look at Dallas and Miami. The Mavs are 8-12. The Heat are 7-12. Both teams were picked to be contenders this year. Perhaps they still may be at the end of the year, but had you told me almost 1/4 into the season that the Rockets and Kings would be better than Dallas or that the Knicks, Cavs and Bulls would be better than Miami I would have asked you to pass me some of that shit to partake.
Heck, even look at a team like the Nets. They completely choke against a bad Wizards team. They lose twice to the Cavs in the last 10 days. It happens.
On March 1st last year, the Bucks were 52-8 and on pace to win 71 games. They had opened up the Bud era by going 122-35.
Even before the shutdown last March they were starting to struggle. They were 1-4 heading into the shutdown and 3-5 in the regular season bubble coming out of the shutdown. They then went 5-5 in the playoffs and have started out 11-8 this year.
That means in the last 42 regular-season and playoff games they are 20-22. For the most part, both Giannis and Middleton have been healthy. In fact, they've had almost no significant injuries.
While there have been obviously been some changes, the core of Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, DDV, and either Holiday or Bledsoe has played in most of those games. 42 games is a long stretch to be under .500 with that level of talent.
@MichiganPacker2 posted:That means in the last 42 regular-season and playoff games they are 20-22. For the most part, both Giannis and Middleton have been healthy. In fact, they've had almost no significant injuries.
While there have been obviously been some changes, the core of Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, DDV, and either Holiday or Bledsoe has played in most of those games. 42 games is a long stretch to be under .500 with that level of talent.
Eye-pppping numbers 😲