Bucks vs Suns: The NBA Finals

@Tschmack posted:

It’s really interesting about the only star player that is giving props to Giannis is KD.  Maybe Steph Curry.  That being said, Durant can be immature and passive aggressive but game recognizes game and it’s nice to see him talk up Giannis.  On the other hand, I’m really surprised we heard nothing from CP3 and Booker and the other usual suspects like LeBron and Harden.  Where’s CJ McCollum at?  

The next couple of years are really going to be fascinating.   I think the Suns will be hard pressed to return to this level and Paul isn’t getting any younger.  Does a team like Portland try to replicate what the Bucks are doing?   Utah and Denver should be improved.  What does Kahwi do?   Do the Warriors make a big push?  And that’s just the West.  In the East, you have to believe Miami and Philly won’t stand pat.  Do the Knicks or Hawks try to make a splash?   It’s also a fantastic draft class coming up.

Durant has been praising Giannis for years.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/...mpo-best-player-ever

The classic Chris Paul thing will be to end up on the Lakers. There will be a LeBron/AD/Paul super-team in LA, a Durant/Harden/Irving super-team in Brooklyn, and the Steph/Clay/Draymond/someone else team in the Bay Area. The problem with a lot of these teams are that most of these guys aren't young anymore. AD is still in his prime, but these guys have a lot of miles and leg injuries that have built up over the years. If those teams all stay healthy, they are probably going to win a title, but do they have the discipline to do the hard work to stay healthy? You think Harden might have been healthier and less likely to have a hamstring problem against the Bucks had he been working out last fall/winter instead of hitting the clubs?

I will preface this by saying I honestly don't care if the Bucks win another title. I'd just like them to be in the mix for the next 5 years and maybe get one more because things break right for them. I think they will be and if they can get a few guys to sign every year to become the next Portis (give up some short-term money to win and get a bigger deal down the road), they can really increase their chances (Oladipo?)

I think the things that will decide who wins titles over the next 5 years are which of the other young guys (Giannis and younger) take the leaps over that time. All it takes is one injury to the "super-teams" core and they are toast since they usually don't have any depth. The trios that include LeBron, Paul, Harden, Durant, Klay, etc. are highly unlikely to stay healthy long enough to have a deep playoff run. So it comes down to what happens with Tatum, Doncic, Zion, Jokic, and whatever other guys get into their 3-4 years and are ready to take the leap.

I think the most likely guy from this group is Tatum. Doncic would be a close second, but I'm not sure if he or Jokic will ever be a good enough defender.

The underrated thing about the Bucks is that while they may never be considered be an all-time "elite" title team like the Durant Warriors or 80s Celtics/Lakers, they were absolutely one of the top title teams ever in terms of defense. Besides Giannis, Holiday's defense was a master class this postseason. Tucker is elite on that end too. Middleton is underrated on that end as well. Even Bobby Portis went from a complete liability to someone that could hold up in the 4th quarter of a title game over the course of a season.

Will Tatum and Jaylen Brown get a defensive mindset and will the Celtics add guys to get stops in a playoff series? Marcus Smart is that type, but they need more of those guys. Will Doncic or Jokic play enough defense? Can the Mavs or Nuggets add guys like Tucker and Holiday to drive a deep playoff run?

Of course, if one of these teams with the duos or the trios of older superstars can get a Doncic/Tatum/Zion to join them that team would emerge as one of the favorites. The issue will be is whether guys like LeBron, Paul, Durant, Harden, Kawhi, etc. give up some money at the end of their careers to let those younger guys get paid.

Portis came up so big on off nights for Holliday Middleton and Pat. Hope he returns

The most NBA thing ever would be for CP3 to opt out his final year and join the Lakers.  

@Dave in GA posted:

So..just wondering...any throwing shade/giving shit to timberwolves fans? Or, is there not the same connection as Packers/queens?

I will always throw shit at Minnesota sports teams.  I say that the only reason the Bucks were on TV, in my area, was because they were NBA contenders, played on nationally televised games and made the play-offs. The Timberwolves suck. Aren't they picking first in the NBA Draft, again?  At least they don't pretend to be in the same class as the Bucks, like the vikings do with the Packers. Another lost cause, The Twins, are somewhere around 15 games out of first place but two networks/cable channels carry their games, in my area, while zero carry the first place Brewers. Again, unless the Brewers are nationally televised, we don't get their games aired in western Wisconsin. Sounds like I am whining, a little, doesn't it? Tough shit!

@YATittle posted:

Portis came up so big on off nights for Holliday Middleton and Pat. Hope he returns

Bobby Portis, Jr. rose to become our best off the bench player in these play-offs. Gotta love it that he was a fan favorite, too! He pumped up the crowd and his teammates, like no other! He could make a fortune selling Portis headbands!

@mrtundra posted:

Bobby Portis, Jr. rose to become our best off the bench player in these play-offs. Gotta love it that he was a fan favorite, too! He pumped up the crowd and his teammates, like no other! He could make a fortune selling Portis headbands!

The issue for the Bucks is that if he opts out of his 3.8 million player option next year (which his agent will tell him is a no-brainer), the most the Bucks can give him is the MLE (6 million a year).

If Christian Wood is worth 3 years and 41 million, Portis is looking at something like 4 years and 60 million.

I'd love for him to come back, but I wouldn't blame him a bit if he took the money elsewhere. We aren't talking giving up a million or two and still making 6 million. He would essentially be leaving 2.5 times the annual salary on the table to stay put.

The Bucks have their core group together the next two years and Giannis, Middleton and Holiday together for the next three years.  In theory, they should be in the mix but with player movement across the league nothing is certain.

Look no further than Phoenix.  They were up 2-0 then the bottom fell out and now CP3 is rumored to opt out his last year and be on the move again.  If that happens, the Suns likely drop down to 5-8 within the WC which all but eliminates their chance for a title.

For Milwaukee, they are still a relatively young team - unlike teams or players that have LeBron and Paul and even Harden and KD.  

If the Bucks don’t win another title I’d be disappointed but as we’ve seen from Portis and Tucker all of a sudden the Bucks are appealing to players looking to chase a title.  Other than Brooklyn and maybe the Lakers and Heat I can’t think of a better situation for someone looking to get a ring.  Depending on the guy, the Bucks may be the best option.  Milwaukee won’t have a ton of cap flexibility, but as we saw this year Horst can add another vet or two assuming Portis Jr. opts out.  If he stays at 3.8MM that a bargain for Milwaukee and they could still add another role 3D player or shooter.

@Tschmack posted:

The most NBA thing ever would be for CP3 to opt out his final year and join the Lakers.  

And then get hurt next year so that the talking heads can say that whatever team wins the title next year wouldn't have won it had LeBron/AD/Paul stayed healthy.

Chris Paul will be 37 before next year's playoffs start. So will LeBron.

The Nets are in a similar position. Durant will be 33 with a repaired Achilles. Harden will be 32 and is not exactly a workout warrior.

Chris Paul has made over 300 million dollars in his career and has a net worth of at least 130 million. If his priority was to win a title, he'd opt out of his 44 million dollar contract next year and sign with someone for the MLE (6 million). He won't and no one can blame him. That's still a lot of money.

The league is basically set up now where you have 2-3 core guys per team who make the big money and then everyone else moves around for MLEs and minimum contracts to chase rings. A lot of guys get big money to play for non-contenders (either because they get overpaid by the non-competitive teams or they get traded there once they decline) and then spend the final years of their careers jumping from one place to another. Dwight Howard, Blake Griffin, Serge Ibaka, etc.

The Bucks title chances next year (assuming their Big 3 stay healthy) will be determined by which ring-chasers join them to replace Forbes, Portis, and Teague.

A Philly columnist rips the process and the Holiday trade as the event that set it off.

https://www.inquirer.com/sixer...oliday-20210723.html

There has not been a day on the Earth’s green surface that Jrue Holiday wasn’t better than Ben Simmons.

(Giannis) shot 206 free throws in 21 playoff games. That’s more than Simmons shot in either of the last two seasons.

Antetokounmpo also is a poor free-throw shooter, but he is a courageous free-throw shooter, because he knows that drawing fouls depletes the availability of his opponent’s better defenders. Giannis gladly withstands the disappointment of missing and the humiliation of mockery -- opposing fans count the seconds during his elaborate pre-shot routine -- but still, he goes to the line.

Sixers fans shouldn’t lament too much about the Bucks.  They won a title in the 80s while dispatching the Bucks several times including a dagger in 2001.

Teams get it wrong all the time with personnel decisions.  You think trading Ray   Allen for a washed up Gary Payton was a good move?

It also helps to have some luck and good fortune along the way.  Like who gets the #1 pick and when.  Or who gets hurt and who stays healthy.

People forget just how many disappointments the Bucks have had in the playoffs since 1971.  Obviously the Kareem trade didn’t help matters either, but if he didn’t want to stay that wasn’t going to change things.

Beyond his physical ability you cannot measure someone’s heart and desire.  In all of my years following professional sports I’d be hard pressed to come up which another player that competes harder than Giannis.  Perhaps MJ, but that’s about it.  

A lot of things have to fall into place to win a championship.  I’m just glad it happened to the Bucks and Giannis given everything they’ve endured since he’s been in Milwaukee.

@Tschmack posted:

If the Bucks don’t win another title I’d be disappointed but as we’ve seen from Portis and Tucker all of a sudden the Bucks are appealing to players looking to chase a title.  Other than Brooklyn and maybe the Lakers and Heat I can’t think of a better situation for someone looking to get a ring.  Depending on the guy, the Bucks may be the best option.  Milwaukee won’t have a ton of cap flexibility, but as we saw this year Horst can add another vet or two assuming Portis Jr. opts out.  If he stays at 3.8MM that a bargain for Milwaukee and they could still add another role 3D player or shooter.

The Heat being a competitor is dependent on Tyler Herro. He played at the level of Devin Booker during the playoff run last year and morphed into a moderately better version of Bryn Forbes this year.

With their current roster, what do you sell to free agents as a title team? Obviously, the weather and the nightlife are great, but otherwise, their superstar (Jimmy Butler) is a ball-dominant guy who has shot less than 25% from three the last two years and generally wears out his welcome within 2-3 years wherever he goes. Their second best player, Adebayo, is a Kawhi-level defender, but he can't shoot outside of 5 feet. When your two best guys can't space the floor, you are in trouble. It worked in 2020 because Duncan Robinson, Herro, Crowder, and Goric went crazy from three.

They took a shot at Oladipo, but that didn't work out. In fact, there has been some chatter that Oladipo may want to sign with the Bucks on a prove-it deal. It's still unlikely, but his social media posts gush about Giannis and he supposedly has a great relationship with him. The Bucks Nigerian connections (Giannis, Thanasis, and Nwora) don't hurt.

https://bleacherreport.com/art...led-to-bucks-pursuit

https://heavy.com/sports/miami...ipo-bucks-instagram/

@mrtundra posted:

. Again, unless the Brewers are nationally televised, we don't get their games aired in western Wisconsin. Sounds like I am whining, a little, doesn't it? Tough shit!

uzzu.tv - it'll change your life!

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

The Heat being a competitor is dependent on Tyler Herro. He played at the level of Devin Booker during the playoff run last year and morphed into a moderately better version of Bryn Forbes this year.

The Heat have an open max slot. They’re a player in trade and FA scenarios… Chris Paul there would fit awfully well…

Like Giannis gives a shit about being mocked for FT shooting. He's the best player on the planet, and will likely get better.

They will try and prove Giannis could not have possibly made all those free throws.  It was rigged.

All I can add is that I have been a good weather Bucks fan for 10ish years and the past few years were exciting but ultimately disappointing. This year was awesome!

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

They took a shot at Oladipo, but that didn't work out. In fact, there has been some chatter that Oladipo may want to sign with the Bucks on a prove-it deal. It's still unlikely, but his social media posts gush about Giannis and he supposedly has a great relationship with him. The Bucks Nigerian connections (Giannis, Thanasis, and Nwora) don't hurt.

https://bleacherreport.com/art...led-to-bucks-pursuit

He might be a great candidate. Im not sure how he fits, but Holiday’s offensive woes need to be addressed. Nwora is an intriguing prospect as well- all complimenting Giannis perfectly. Oladipo is a very good defender when he’s right, and he does need to get back to basics with his career. No better place to do that than on a team poised to be a perennial Title contender. He’s 29, so entering his prime.

The key with Oladipo is his health.  Prior to the injury, he was a fantastic defender and finisher.  He also rebounded well for a guy that’s maybe 6’4”?

You could play him a lot like DDV.  He’s not really built like Tucker (nor does he defend like that) but he would be a nice addition.

I have seen more than one mock draft with  the Bucks getting the PG from VCU. Sounds like he has great range, would likely be an improvement over Teague.

What would a PG do? They seem to have Giannis bring the ball up the majority of the time. I am really happy that Bucks won the championship. Just can't get into what NBA basketball has become. Grew up listening to the Bucks on my transistor radio wit an ear phone because we were forced to go to bed at 8. The game now just  seems to be jacking up 3's and trying to force a foul call. College basketball is far more enjoyable.

@Tschmack posted:

The key with Oladipo is his health.  Prior to the injury, he was a fantastic defender and finisher.  He also rebounded well for a guy that’s maybe 6’4”?

You could play him a lot like DDV.  He’s not really built like Tucker (nor does he defend like that) but he would be a nice addition.

Can you imagine Oladipo coming off the bench as the 6th man?? Lou Williams eat your heart out.

Maybe wishful thinking but it sure sounds fun on paper!

Me: How does it feel to be champions?
13-year-old: it feels good because if there are any Suns fans at my school I can laugh at them 🤣 pic.twitter.com/iXkB36x3NM

— Kristen Barbaresi (@KristenBarbar) July 22, 2021

@Tschmack posted:

The key with Oladipo is his health.  Prior to the injury, he was a fantastic defender and finisher.  He also rebounded well for a guy that’s maybe 6’4”?

You could play him a lot like DDV.  He’s not really built like Tucker (nor does he defend like that) but he would be a nice addition.

You put Oladipo into the starting lineup and DD off the bench, you have a lineup that can take down the Nets and then some.

If he’s right, you kick the tires on that 100%. Come here and reestablish your career- 2 year deal, 1 @ $10M with a team option for $25M. Match him up with Harden or Irving and you have 3Gs who really defend.

Let the decade of dominance begin…

Tuesday, the Milwaukee Bucks won an NBA Title. I’m still just reveling in this.

I just marvel at Giannis’ 5 year run - which is easily the greatest ascension of a basketball player in history. Going into the 2016-17 season, Giannis had never been in an All Star game, and was coming off a breakout season (his 3rd) where he averaged 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, and 4.3 apg.

Starting with that season, he wins MIP player and is an All Star starter (in fact, every year since). He’s been on the All Defensive team all but 2017-18 season (not sure why that is). He has won the MVP twice, and is now he has an NBA Title. No player in league history has accomplished as much as fast. And you know he wants more… he wants a lot more.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/fe...he-proved-it-anyway/

Holliday

https://fivethirtyeight.com/fe...-bucks-title-dreams/

@YATittle posted:

Holliday

https://fivethirtyeight.com/fe...-bucks-title-dreams/

Yes. Jrue Holiday's defense is Hall of Fame level. He might be the best on-ball defensive guard I've ever seen play. He's right up there with Gary Payton, Tony Allen, Dennis Johnson, and Sidney Moncrief. He guarded everyone from Durant, Chris Paul, Devin Booker, and Trae Young and did it well.

Speaking of Holiday and the Pelicans, as I've posted earlier in other threads, the Pelicans have won the lottery twice in the last decade when there was a generational prospect available at #1. In fact, they had both AD and Zion under their control at the same time along with Jrue Holiday and Julius Randle. They were all 28 years old or younger at the time.

They somehow managed to turn in some of the best luck in NBA lottery history to a team that couldn't even finish in the top 10 in the Western Conference and are to the point where they appear to be panic trading guys to clear salary cap to sign a free agent to try to keep Zion from wanting out (which his family has already hinted at). They just traded Bledsoe and Adams for a decent big guy (Valanciunas) who will just clog up the lane for Zion and to move from the 10th to the 17th pick in the draft to clear the Bledsoe/Adams cap space. The top free agents this year are an ancient Kyle Lowry and an injured Kawhi.

They have a decent young trio (Zion, Ingram, and Lonzo Ball) but what they really need is a steadying veteran presence and a guy who can be a defensive stopper. You know, like Jrue Holiday. They've already shipped Bledsoe and George Hill out from that trade and all they have to show for it are some Bucks' future picks from 2024-2027 (picks or draft swaps). Only the 2027 pick is for a year that Giannis won't be under contract for the Bucks.

To the surprise of basically no one, Bryn Forbes opts out and will test Free Agency.  He was fun to have on the team when he was having an "on" night, but when he was off he really could be a detriment.

I'll always remember some of those games vs. the Heat in the playoffs where he just absolutely destroyed them and helped break their will.  All I know he was a legit contributor to a championship team and he'll be missed at least a little bit, though he's certainly replaceable if they find the right guy. 

@fightphoe93 posted:

To the surprise of basically no one, Bryn Forbes opts out and will test Free Agency.  He was fun to have on the team when he was having an "on" night, but when he was off he really could be a detriment.

I'll always remember some of those games vs. the Heat in the playoffs where he just absolutely destroyed them and helped break their will.  All I know he was a legit contributor to a championship team and he'll be missed at least a little bit, though he's certainly replaceable if they find the right guy.

He's a good regular season player but when the rotation shrinks in the playoffs his lack of defense makes him unplayable.

His big moment was against the Heat, but he was a guy that seemed to shoot lights out in games you were comfortably ahead but was more an average guy in close games. 

Forbes just seemed like he never fit in with the team personality wise. He was a black hole whenever he was on the floor- I’m guessing that wasn’t too well received by the longer term vets.

The Bucks have a guy they can send out there for instant offense- Nwora- who isn’t 6’ and a complete liability on the other end. Not that Nwora is any kind of defender, just that’s how unplayable Forbes was.

The Bucks need a backup G that can give quality minutes. Not sure I think Bryant is that guy.

If you research Nwora and look at the pre draft evaluations they say he’s a capable and willing defender in space.  He’s got good size and can obviously shoot the ball.  

Even if he’s a mediocre defender that’s a big upgrade over Forbes who couldn’t defend at all.  In the postseason he was pretty much unplayable.

Oladipo is still a very intriguing prospect given his ability to play in the backcourt and balance out some of the offense but clearly Nwora would be a boost off the bench.  

@Music City posted:

Forbes just seemed like he never fit in with the team personality wise. He was a black hole whenever he was on the floor- I’m guessing that wasn’t too well received by the longer term vets.

The Bucks have a guy they can send out there for instant offense- Nwora- who isn’t 6’ and a complete liability on the other end. Not that Nwora is any kind of defender, just that’s how unplayable Forbes was.

The Bucks need a backup G that can give quality minutes. Not sure I think Bryant is that guy.

There are a lot of guys coming out of college who can shoot the ball but are borderline unplayable in the NBA because they would be abused trying to play defense. That's why a guy like Forbes was undrafted to begin with. Forbes will get a raise from someone to play this upcoming year because he hit wide-open shots playing with Giannis. There are a half-dozen guys like that talking to their agents right now telling them to get them to Milwaukee for a year so they can take wide-open 3s and have Giannis (and Holiday) playing with them to minimize the effect of their defensive liabilities. They'll also get to pad their stats in more garbage time blowouts than in most places.

That’s how the rich get richer…

Sometimes I have to remind myself that this was not a dream…

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

There are a lot of guys coming out of college who can shoot the ball but are borderline unplayable in the NBA because they would be abused trying to play defense. That's why a guy like Forbes was undrafted to begin with. Forbes will get a raise from someone to play this upcoming year because he hit wide-open shots playing with Giannis. There are a half-dozen guys like that talking to their agents right now telling them to get them to Milwaukee for a year so they can take wide-open 3s and have Giannis (and Holiday) playing with them to minimize the effect of their defensive liabilities. They'll also get to pad their stats in more garbage time blowouts than in most places.

Rodney Hood was as good a shooter as Forbes at one time. Minimum contract.

Semi Ojeleye can establish himself as a poor man's version of Tucker. Minimum contract.

Grayson Allen is likely to look very good playing in Milwaukee in a contract year. I could see him shooting 45% from 3 in the regular season. He's a good defender to begin with, but he's going to look really good next to 3 guys that have made NBA All-Defensive teams the last 2 years (plus Middleton, DDV, and George Hill).

What I also like about Allen is it’s possible he could push DDV for playing time.  If his injury lingers or he doesn’t continue to improve Allen could take on a bigger role.