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GD, are you aware that your wholesale assertion of MM being one of the greatest HCs in NFL history immediately leads to you to have to defend The Wizard?  I'm not going to put Tomlin, Holmgren or any other current coach besides Belichek in  the same ranks as Lombardi, Halas, Walsh, Landry and Lambeau.  Those guys were the entirety of their coaching staffs.  Their teams didn't break down because one **** assistant would drag them down while remaining in place for years.

"Oh, look at the genius of MM and his record with Rodgers".  Nevermind the complete ****ing face plant without Rodgers.  

The point is that their records are very similar. If you consider Tomlin a good coach, which I think you do and that's why you won't answer, then McCarthy is also a good HC. Personnel sh*t happens, it's not good, but every HC has staff mistakes I'm sure they wish they could rectify. Only 25% of active coaches in the NFL have ever won a SB, only John Harbaugh, Doug Pederson and Jon Gruden did it without franchise QBs. McCarthy deserves criticism, but in the big picture he's a fantastic HC and would get hired immediately if we don't retain him...I guarantee Cleveland is hoping Gute is stupid enough not to renew his contract because they will fire Hugh and bring in Mike the next day.  

Brak posted:

So he fired Capers and hired Pettine.  But no matter what happens, it's the ifs that matter, not the whats.

OK.  That's just not how I roll.

Speaking for me, the when matters as well.  Heck, I'd throw MM a pass if he held on 2, maybe 3 years too long.  

Ya kinda overlooked the when.  Maybe that's how we roll differently.

Grave Digger posted:

The point is that their records are very similar. If you consider Tomlin a good coach, which I think you do and that's why you won't answer, then McCarthy is also a good HC. Personnel sh*t happens, it's not good, but every HC has staff mistakes I'm sure they wish they could rectify. Only 25% of active coaches in the NFL have ever won a SB, only John Harbaugh, Doug Pederson and Jon Gruden did it without franchise QBs. McCarthy deserves criticism, but in the big picture he's a fantastic HC and would get hired immediately if we don't retain him...I guarantee Cleveland is hoping Gute is stupid enough not to renew his contract because they will fire Hugh and bring in Mike the next day.  

"One of the best HCs in NFL history".  I'm glad MM's employment opportunities are so bright.  He can go down the Holmgren path and revive every organization he touches.  Oh yeah, that didn't happen.  

Not answering your question about Tomlin is because it has no bearing on MM's failure at management with the Green Bay Packers.  The whole point of this discussion is what has MM done with Rodgers, not stats for Tomlin or Holmgren. Those shiny numbers are sure super great and everything but you can't cobble them together into another Lombardi trophy.  

It's also pretty hard to swallow the one of the greatest HCs in NFL history line when he just had his great system forcefully rearranged.  

Last edited by Henry
phaedrus posted:
Brak posted:

So he fired Capers and hired Pettine.  But no matter what happens, it's the ifs that matter, not the whats.

OK.  That's just not how I roll.

Speaking for me, the when matters as well.  Heck, I'd throw MM a pass if he held on 2, maybe 3 years too long.  

Ya kinda overlooked the when.  Maybe that's how we roll differently.

I didn't overlook it.  You are dealing with ifs.  I'm dealing with whats.  Whens are implied.

Henry posted:
Brak posted:

So he fired Capers and hired Pettine.  But no matter what happens, it's the ifs that matter, not the whats.

OK.  That's just not how I roll.

But did he?  It's really hard to say MM was in the driver seat when Murphy made some serious organizational changes and bringing in a new GM.  Murphy didn't just clean house, he remodeled it.  I'm pretty sure MM, being the equivalent of the harvest gold dryer in the corner, had no choice in the matter.  Let's refer to the "starting from page 1" comments about the offense.  Well, why the hell would you do that MM?  Is it because your old playbook and coaching methods proved to be pretty horse**** without Rodgers?  Not just bad, but avocado green bad.

I really don't even mind that MM survived by clinging to Rodgers skirts.  They work well together.  Philbin seems to help MM as well.  Like I said, two OCs and Rodgers with a new GM and competent DC will get you a Super Bowl.

That still doesn't excuse years of failure after being so thoroughly exposed last year.

I am here as well.  Now we have a fine DC, I believe.  And the Hundley fiasco is largely nullified with a healthy Rodgers.  Given these circumstances, I am open to the idea MM is pretty much as good as is out there.

And I don't forget his mental handling of the SB team.  He rode one hell of a wave there.  Phenomenal job.

I don't believe I am dismissing all of MM's positives.

Grave Digger posted:

I also didn't compare him to BB, Lombardi or Halas, being one of the greatest HC in the NFL does not mean he's THE greatest. I said he was top 25, which is reasonable. Maybe he will pick you to induct him in the HOF and you can let him have it about Dom Capers. 

Are you kidding?  It would be me and The Wizard wearing sweet gold chains in a hot tub doing the induction.  70's style.

"I am proud to be here today to induct the Sears earth tone appliance line into the HOF.  Crank that Rupert Holmes up Wizard!"

Of course he would be hired the next day.....by Cleveland, Buffalo, Jax or anyone of the bottom feeders that are consistently hiring coaches.  Would any teams that are in the hunt get rid of their coach to hire MM?

By the way I like MM, he is a fine HC not the greatest or best and certainly not the worst.  I do think that the leash is shorter now and better results are coming because of that....at least I hope so.

Brak posted:

What about what Rodgers has done with McCarthy? 

MM has been a great QB coach just like he was with Brooks and Gannon.  That makes him a great QB coach and OC, not necessarily a great HC.  Just like Zimmer or Lovie who were/are fantastic with defensive talent, it doesn't mean they are excellent HCs.  If last year didn't happen in spectacular fashion along with the continuing Wizard saga we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Last edited by Henry
Henry posted:

It's also pretty hard to swallow the one of the greatest HCs in NFL history line when he just had his great system forcefully rearranged.  

I think he did the rearranging. I think he got more direct input on personnel acquisition and he won't be hamstrung by a GM that is always on the hunt for the next great UDFA. 

Last edited by Grave Digger
Grave Digger posted:

Yeah I think he got the GM he wanted, a young GM that he doesn't report to.

So in your estimation MM went to Murphy and told him the whole front office situation was horrible and to change it.  He also told Murphy that there was no way he could fire the Wizard with TT giving him full autonomy over the coaching staff.  It's clear the "silos" in the Packers organization caused Hundley to suck balls well. 

Man, AG McCarthy is a visionary.  

Last edited by Henry

You're of the opinion that getting rid of The Wizard was AG's.  GD is of the opinion that AG reshaped the Packers organization to his liking.  

I'm of the opinion that the Original AG was given a "choice" to find a new DC and apparently decided to start rethinking the offensive scheme from scratch because Brett Hundley was so successful.  Alex Van Pelt agrees. 

It started with Murphy making FO changes culminating with hiring Ginnygurp and the completely obvious changes that needed to be made.  That's my take.

Last edited by Henry

My Wolf and Highsmith comment comes from GD saying he got the GM he wanted and doesn't have to report to.  Is that the case?  Does MM get to complete ignore Garkencar?  Seems pretty ****ing strange.  If MM did the picking what was it that enamored him with Goopysoup?  Maybe because he was a complete weak puppet?

Last edited by Henry
Brak posted:
phaedrus posted:
Brak posted:

So he fired Capers and hired Pettine.  But no matter what happens, it's the ifs that matter, not the whats.

OK.  That's just not how I roll.

Speaking for me, the when matters as well.  Heck, I'd throw MM a pass if he held on 2, maybe 3 years too long.  

Ya kinda overlooked the when.  Maybe that's how we roll differently.

I didn't overlook it.  You are dealing with ifs.  I'm dealing with whats.  Whens are implied.

I'll do you one better.  Why is MM?

In the end, the question isn't whether McCarthy is one of the greatest or the chief architect of everyone's misery. It's who's better and available. This is the prediction that will cement the bulletin board GM's reputation.

I don't remember anyone, anywhere saying, the first time the Packers sucked w/o Rodgers, "Man, we should dump MM and get Doug Pedersen."

It would be pretty stupid if the coaching staff and front office didn't have a strong dialogue.  I'm sure MM will have plenty of input, just like he did with TT.  The wholesale absolution MM is getting is ridiculous.  He is as much of the issue as TT and The Wizard ever were.  Maybe this kind of tectonic shift is enough of a warning shot to pull his head out.  I hope so.  He's not going anywhere but that doesn't mean he's infallible.  In fact, I'd say he's pretty damn lucky.

Last edited by Henry
grignon posted:

In the end, the question isn't whether McCarthy is one of the greatest or the chief architect of everyone's misery. It's who's better and available. This is the prediction that will cement the bulletin board GM's reputation.

I don't remember anyone, anywhere saying, the first time the Packers sucked w/o Rodgers, "Man, we should dump MM and get Doug Pedersen."

So there was no competent replacement for The Wizard ever?  Got it Bulletin Board Peanut Gallery.

Henry posted:
Grave Digger posted:

Yeah I think he got the GM he wanted, a young GM that he doesn't report to.

So in your estimation MM went to Murphy and told him the whole front office situation was horrible and to change it.  He also told Murphy that there was no way he could fire the Wizard with TT giving him full autonomy over the coaching staff.  It's clear the "silos" in the Packers organization caused Hundley to suck balls well. 

Man, AG McCarthy is a visionary.  

I think Murphy did an assessment and McCarthy probably told him he didn't feel like the communication between FO and HC was good enough, likely in regard to player acquisition. Did MM make a power play to nix Russ Ball being hired? Maybe. Certainly the word was out that Ball would be the GM and rumors started swirling about Rodgers being unhappy with that and MM not wanting to work under him, and then Gute gets hired. I don't think MM explicitly said "hire Gute or I quit!", but I don't think that rumor was a fantasy. I think Rodgers and MM got their preferred candidate, the other guys left the organization on their own because they didn't get the GM job. There were rumors MM wanted Kizer in 2016, suddenly Kizer is on the team. MM was publicly unhappy with Randall during the season, boom Randall is gone. I don't think those moves are just a coincidence, I think MM has more input in player acquisition then he has ever had. I don't think MM runs the show, but it's more a collaborative set up than in the past. 

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