The Heckler posted:So a question for those who want him gone is who do you want as a replacement?
Oh boy. Here come the thatsnotthepointers. One of my faves.
Here's what I want. I want his famous "self-scouting" sessions to turn into more than a circle jerk, such as "How can I REALLY make the QB room effective?" or "Why am I blindly loyal to undeserving, toupee-wearing men?"
The SB win brought MM a lot of goodwill with the fans but it's not an endless supply. Agree with others that he's likely on a short leash, and rightfully so.
Fandame posted:When your star QB goes down, your defense has to step up big-time and pull off a couple of wins by shutting down the other team. If you played on last year's team, BD, would you rally around the defense that Capers installed and called the past couple of years? It would have been hard to be motivated as an offensive player to know your D will cave; it would have been hard to believe in your DC if you were a D player. The team was cooked with Capers, just like a chicken.
With Rodgers you always stand a chance to win; with Hundley (in essence, an untested-one-step-above-a-rookie QB that MM had too much faith in), it rested on the D to grab a win or two and Capers couldn't get it done.
This year, with Pettine and Philbin, if MM doesn't get it done in convincing fashion, then he's not up to the job and needs to go. Some other team will hire him within 24 hours, and they will get an excellent coach as I think MM learns from mistakes in retrospect, even if his loyalty button sticks too often.
Isn't that the whole debate? MM kept that timebomb in place and it blew up on him. That's not good coaching. I strongly question the idea that MM learns from his mistakes. If anything this whole situation is the very opposite of him learning from his mistakes. I do not believe for a second that MM just decided to make wholesale changes this year because he finally saw a problem. The whole organization was shook up part in parcel because of his stagnant coaching approach along with TT missing the mark.
They will be successful this year and MM will get undeserved praise after being forced to address a ****ty situation he should've addressed on his own.
Consider this. The changes Murphy made were no small thing. He completely changed the system Harlan put in place because the whole of coaching and the FO went stale. You can't look at The Wizard situation and say that wasn't a huge part of the "silos" issue.
Brak posted:The Heckler posted:So a question for those who want him gone is who do you want as a replacement?Oh boy. Here come the thatsnotthepointers. One of my faves.
Pettine if he shows what he always did on previous defensive units. I would immediately find a defensive minded coach because you've got an offense on auto pilot with Rodgers. Hell, hold onto Philbin as OC. That should make Rodgers happy. And don't give me the Cleveland crap. Nobody is successful in Cleveland. Of course he says he never wants to be a HC again but I'd have to think anyone would be interested to work with Rodgers.
Maybe coaches have their peaks, just like players. MM gets well deserved credit for SB45 and not just for winning it all. What he did to hold that team together amid the hoards of injured and rally them to Feb should be legendary. He also took a recently gutted roster in it's infancy of a rebuild with a bluehair diva at QB and nearly squeezed an MVP and SB out of it in 07. They should have won it all in 14 and for all MM's mistakes in that game, he had them go into SEA where nobody wins, and dominate a team for 55:00. Even SB winning coaches make mistakes but he didn't tell Burnett to take a dive and he didn't tell Bostick to play hero. But he did decidedly beat the HC/GOAT that went on to win it all that year.
I can't say what has happened since then, how much is on his shoulders, how much is on TT. But things haven't really looked right the last several years and last year set it all on fire. I agree the stage has been set for MM and we'll see if he has another gear left.
Henry posted:.It was his show last year. The only difference, no Rodgers. So if you're talking about Rodgers as one of the greats, we already know that. If you think MM is "addressing" the DC position like is was some sage move, you're as delusional as GD.
McCarthy was given a damn gift as far as the upcoming season is concerned. Great OC, try not to **** up everything else.
I donât subscrbe to absolutes here. Yes, McCarthy is responsible for what happened last year- heâs the head coach, not a victim. I donât argue against that at all. But like any person who faces adversity, he has his shot at redemption. If he lost the team, if they continue to spiral, heâs gone. Legacy complete. But if he succeeds, heâll have proven his worth.
Who are the best coaches in the NFL right now?
Coughlin won two SBs for the Giants but his expiration date put him on the street. I've often wondered if MM is in the same boat.
DH13 posted:They should have won it all in 14 and for all MM's mistakes in that game, he had them go into SEA where nobody wins, and dominate a team for 55:00. Even SB winning coaches make mistakes but he didn't tell Burnett to take a dive and he didn't tell Bostick to play hero.
Think a more aggressive mindset and a greater emphasis on special teams may have produced a different result. Regardless, the fake FG was just as catastrophic as Bostick's blunder and that was all coaching.
Grave Digger posted:Who are the best coaches in the NFL right now?
I put the NFL coaches in echelons:
The top is all by himself and that is the most obvious is of course Bill Belichick I dont think it is even close with the other coaches in the NFL.
2nd: MM, Pederson, Tomlin, Payten, Carroll maybe Gruden and Zimmer
The rest?
The rest are a bunch of new guys or guys like Marvin Lewis who must know where the bodies are buried to have a job.
And yes I include MM in the echolon of coaches after Belichick.
MM is 121-70-1 (2nd only to Lambeau in team history)
Super Bowl winner
6 division titles
Playoffs 8 years in a row
4 NFCC game appearances
So I ask again who does everyone want that is better than MM? It is easy to say he has to go but be careful what you ask for.
Grave Digger posted:Who are the best coaches in the NFL right now?
Who are the best pitchers in MLB right now?
The Heckler posted:So I ask again who does everyone want that is better than MM? It is easy to say he has to go but be careful what you ask for.
And I'll answer again. Pettine if he shows what he's always shown on defense or another defensive minded coach. Let's also look at the big looming factor behind MM's pretty stats namely one Aaron Rodgers. Shelf life. It's a thing.
I want MM, a new and improved MM. To say he is not one of the better coaches in the NFL would be wrong IMO. But as the old saying goes, what have you done for me lately. The Packers, if Rodgers is healthy need to at least get to the SB in the next couple of years.
I'd take a new and improved MM but I don't see that happening. Combined with last year's face plant, his previous attempt at "being more involved with the defense" ended up seeing the offense starting to wander off path with the genius that is Tom Clements. So he either sucks at evaluating coaching talent or he cannot control both sides of the ball. I'm going with both. I just don't see how MM all of sudden improves. The self scouting crap is a big nothing burger. Is MM another 10 year development project? Is he the Carl Bradford of coaching? Let's start kicking that concept down the road.
You could be right BUT, he ain't going anywhere soon. So, he either gets it back on track with the help of the new front office and coaches and wins, or after a couple of nothingburger years he is encouraged to leave. Unfortunately if the later happens the AR window will be closing and it may be to late.
Therefore, for me in MM I trust. I have to.
Agreed. He isn't going anywhere. I just think the amount of praise he'll receive because of others rings pretty hollow. A competent DC, two OCs, a modified approach to talent acquisition and Aaron Rodgers. Lombardi trophy. Great.
A one year contract extension doesn't exactly scream job security.
DH13:
They should have won it all in 14 and for all MM's mistakes in that game, he had them go into SEA where nobody wins, and dominate a team for 55:00. Even SB winning coaches make mistakes but he didn't tell Burnett to take a dive and he didn't tell Bostick to play hero. But he did decidedly beat the HC/GOAT that went on to win it all that year.
Perhaps the most significant metric in football is turnovers. Seattle had 5 TO's and the Packers offense managed 306 yards and 22 points. I suppose if credit is given to coaching for the TO's, it is given to Capers.
Twice Green Bay had 3rd and something like a foot close to the endzone. No TD's.
When factoring in the turnovers, I think an argument can be made that aside from winning that battle, the Packers played a pretty miserable game.
Given those TO's, MM should have guided the Packers to an absolute blowout that was decided at halftime.
Against the #1D in the NFL that year, in their stadium, and a mobile QB with a bad calf? OK.
The other guys get paid too. The offense had it's own shortcomings but short of a number of individuals making the worst plays of their lives, they did enough to win.
michiganjoe posted:A one year contract extension doesn't exactly scream job security.
My take on that is perhaps that is when MM has decided that it will be time for him to hang it up and maybe moves to the front office somewhere.
I think if MM came up with a new catchphrase and started wearing a suit and tie on the sideline, his legacy as one of the best of all time would be solidified. It's all about branding.
phaedrus posted:Seattle had 5 TO's and the Packers offense managed 306 yards and 22 points.
Six points off those five turnovers has always been the defining stat of the game for me.
michiganjoe posted:phaedrus posted:Seattle had 5 TO's and the Packers offense managed 306 yards and 22 points.
Six points off those five turnovers has always been the defining stat of the game for me.
Should have been 13 with that last Pick Six....
The Heckler posted:michiganjoe posted:A one year contract extension doesn't exactly scream job security.
My take on that is perhaps that is when MM has decided that it will be time for him to hang it up and maybe moves to the front office somewhere.
I'm going to strongly disagree. TT gave him that extension.
Henry posted:Grave Digger posted:Who are the best coaches in the NFL right now?
Who are the best pitchers in MLB right now?
Iâm not using this as an argument against you. Iâm just curious what everyone thinks. For me it goes:
1. Belichick
2. McCarthy
3. Tomlin
4. Reid
5. Payton
6. Harbaugh
7. Carroll
8. Pederson
9. Rivera
10. ZImmer
Pederson and Zimmer look to have extremely bright futures though and I think Pederson especially will be moving up this list. I want to see him manage a team when heâs hamstrung by a franchise QBâs salary though (which Iâm sure will be soon). I want to see Championship and a solid winning % over a longer period. Lots of guys are good in spurts early as a HC, heck even the legendary Wizard has an NFC championship appearance as a HC!
No idea why everyone sleeps on Dan Quinn. .605 winning percentage. 3-2 in the playoffs. Should have a Lombardi if not for his QB and OC going brain dead on him.
To Henryâs point. A defensive guy that knows his way around an entire team. Thatâs Pettine.
Zimmers name keeps popping up in front of Quinn. Thatâs simply not paying attention.
Don't forget about the receiver (Chris Chambers) that Sherman passed over to take Robert F-ing Ferguson! I still shake my head about that !!
Good point Chili.
The guy in LA has a shot to make the list
Yeah, that was a hell of a turnaround. McVay walked into a Zimmer situation with a lot of high draft picks but that was still really impressive. Zimmer is a wait and see for me. He was passed over quite a bit since most teams saw him as a great DC only. Not sure why that perception existed but judging from some of the early struggles along with not looking very good in the post season I can see the justification.
I want to see a HC that can control the whole team and that comes down to knowing your coaching staff. Zimmer, just like MM, has some issues.
Like Pederson, Zimmer, McVay, MM made his first push with a roster that had some critical high picks on it. TT knocked it out of the park his first 5 years and gave MM/DC a roster loaded in key spots. We still have AR but do we have an equivalent CM3, Raji, Collins, Bishop, Jordy, Jennings, Jones, Finley , Sitton, Lang?
I'll say again, it is possible MM peaked around 2010/11. The league changes quickly. While he may still be the same guy with the same talent, we're 8 years further down the road. And a lot has changed. He needed this offseason's shake up more than anybody and now we'll see if he can rise again. He really needs Glutenfree's picks to pan out too.
It kind of sucks when you look at things like the Owen Burks pick, which I think is excellent, and still go "hope it works". That's like 80's pessimism right there.
I was too naÃŊve to worry about draft picks in the 80's. I thought they were all great at the time. I seem to have the same optimism for the 3 WR's we took this year. Can't tell if that's good or bad.
Turgidity just rolled hyperbole.
If I had to guess you just like saying turgid.
Henry posted:The Heckler posted:So I ask again who does everyone want that is better than MM? It is easy to say he has to go but be careful what you ask for.
And I'll answer again. Pettine if he shows what he's always shown on defense or another defensive minded coach. Let's also look at the big looming factor behind MM's pretty stats namely one Aaron Rodgers. Shelf life. It's a thing.
Pettine has said that he doesn't want to be a head coach again.
Yeah, or another younger defensive coach. I think he'd change his mind after a year or two in GB and that Erin Rogers fella.
Yep. Changing the offense this late in Rodgers career will change everything.
When football began to "specialize" in the 70's, it totally changed the dynamics of being the HC. This is why football is not likely to ever see another Lombardi or Landry.
Most coaches since then have been former coordinators, so they're biased to their training and knowledge, offense or defense. I think the same is true for former players who have become coaches.
I also believe that the prominent successful coaches ( from Knox, Noll, to Walsh, Gibbs, to Bellicheat, among others) did so with the benefit of having strong OC/DC support rather than having superior knowledge of both sides of a team.
McCarthy is no different.
His success has been from offensive knowledge. I can remember a time when he was as bright and innovative as any of the better 'modern-era' coaches; scheming new formations and 5 WR packages, and developing a very potent offense.
His downfall has largely been his administrative responsibilities, followed by (lack of) in-game adjustments. How much none, some, or both of these were influenced by Thompson we'll never know, but a coach ultimately has to deal with what he's given to work with, or find someone who can. MM has been poor-to-mediocre at best.
His refusal to make any change when it's obvious to everyone else that the status quo ain't working is why he is in the position he's in today. And rightly so.
His future in Green Bay will be largely determined by how well he and Pettine can work together. We likely still won't have a "perfect" team this year so he damn sure better have a different plan than the one he's been using the last few years.
Strictly my opinions, others may vary.
