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It's a weird thing to gauge. How did SEA, LAR, ATL and even at times ARZ play SF tougher or match up better than GB did?  SF playing to the level of their competition?  The other teams have D better suited to stop SF?  SF was missing more key players when they played those teams?  

All we know, no matter if GB is the 2nd or 16th best team in the NFC, is that they do not match up well with SF whether it be mentally, physically, or otherwise.  I think it's good they'll face off again next year to give us another comparison after another off season.  Hopefully it's not another WK01 "rematch of the NFCCG" as those games usually tell us very little.

Boris posted:

Did the Pack overachieve? Perhaps. But I believe they would beat every team in the NFC cept SF. Yes that includes the Saints. 

Just to clarify, I don't mean "overachieved" as a slight to the Packers.  Quite the opposite.  I think they made the most of the talent they have, which speaks to the character of this team.

DH13 posted:

It's a weird thing to gauge. How did SEA, LAR, ATL and even at times ARZ play SF tougher or match up better than GB did?  SF playing to the level of their competition?  The other teams have D better suited to stop SF?  SF was missing more key players when they played those teams?  

All we know, no matter if GB is the 2nd or 16th best team in the NFC, is that they do not match up well with SF whether it be mentally, physically, or otherwise.  I think it's good they'll face off again next year to give us another comparison after another off season.  Hopefully it's not another WK01 "rematch of the NFCCG" as those games usually tell us very little.

How did they play them tougher? Simple, they have faster defenses and DLs that can disrupt. 

Besides Kenny Clark nobody on this defense up front can really disrupt and the style they play isn't designed to disrupt. The front is there to eat up blockers.  The other teams play more of a single gap and attack to try and disrupt plays.

 

 

Considering what the Pack put on the field the prior 2 seasons,  MLF did a fantastic job.  A first time head coach reaching the superb bowl would be a hell of a story, but in reality, making the NFCC is beyond honest expectations. 

Need a second reliable receiver,  better center, and  AR needs to get the ball out much faster. Opportunities are there for the taking. 

Improving the run stop, and fundamental tackling over trying to strip the ball first will make a good defense better.

Tweaking the 2020 season,  not over reacting, with possible exception of a new special teams coach, seems reasonable.  Much of this team needed to see championship football up close, and experience it.  If the team improves next year, the team is on the right track. 

excalibur posted:
PackOly posted:
 
... and  AR needs to get the ball out much faster. Opportunities are there for the taking. 

 

Do you believe that at this late stage of his career he is capable of changing? I don't.

Absolutely he is. He’s different this year than he was last year and has seemingly changed year to year his entire career. His play style changes based on his supporting cast as well. If he had the 2011 crew in 2019 I guarantee he plays different. 

After a day to "step back" my opinion on this team moving forward, must be viewed in relation to what you thought this past season was:  over-achieving but got lucky to get to the NFCC game or a team on the rise that obviously has some holes to fill to compete with the best of the best.  

If you feel that this season was a fluke then you must also accept the idea that this team is now entering year 2 of what is likely a 3 year rebuild.  With that in mind, it's acceptable to draft BPA REGARDLESS of position. That would include QB/DB/RB.  If a QB is available and the FO feels he's the "one" then you take him.  

However, if you lean more towards viewpoint #2, then a QB is not the most pressing need.  WR/ILB/DL is where the draft needs to focus.  

I'm choosing viewpoint #2.  My hope is that with an infusion of better skill position talent and another year to adjust to MLF's system, this offense will start to run smoothly.  Regardless, ILB is the major weakness on D and must be addressed. The rest of the draft and free agency must focus on shoring up the holes and finding a few players to be the backbone of this team after AR is gone.

 

 

Grave Digger posted:
excalibur posted:
PackOly posted:
 
... and  AR needs to get the ball out much faster. Opportunities are there for the taking. 

 

Do you believe that at this late stage of his career he is capable of changing? I don't.

Absolutely he is. He’s different this year than he was last year and has seemingly changed year to year his entire career. His play style changes based on his supporting cast as well. If he had the 2011 crew in 2019 I guarantee he plays different. 

 

 

People have been complaining about him not getting the ball out fast for more than the 2019 season.

A great team season but not a great QB season. When was the last time you saw AR12  really step into a throw and drive it downfield?  Not yesterday, not many times vs. Seattle and not at all vs. Detoilet.  On most of his passes this season he is either back peddling or throwing flat footed.  He needs to get back to doing what great QBs do,  step up and drive the ball.  He looks like he never wants to move up in the pocket because he might get hurt. Keep playing like that and he will suffer a career ending injury.   Watch Mahomes in 2 weeks, that is what Rodgers used to be. 

It was damn hard to watch the PACKERS collapse on D in this game & lose. This was a great season considering the players that were on the roster. Great strides in improving quality of players by Gute & damn good coaching by HC !!! I know if it was in the cards that the PACKERS would lose,it was better now than in a SB. The loss to the Broncos still is gagging me !!!!

PackOly posted:

Considering what the Pack put on the field the prior 2 seasons,  MLF did a fantastic job.  A first time head coach reaching the superb bowl would be a hell of a story, but in reality, making the NFCC is beyond honest expectations. 

Need a second reliable receiver,  better center, and  AR needs to get the ball out much faster. Opportunities are there for the taking. 

Improving the run stop, and fundamental tackling over trying to strip the ball first will make a good defense better.

Tweaking the 2020 season,  not over reacting, with possible exception of a new special teams coach, seems reasonable.  Much of this team needed to see championship football up close, and experience it.  If the team improves next year, the team is on the right track. 

This season was a fun ride for me.  I thought they would be better maybe winning 9 or so games but never would have thought they would have gotten this far.

To me getting as far as this team did was amazing especially after how the last two seasons played out.  It really was a fun ride and it almost feels like the mid 90's Packers before they won it all.  The front office is in good shape with an aggressive GM who will do whatever he can to make them better. And we have a young and very good HC who will like the players has gained some valuable experience and I bet the burning hunger to get over that last hump.

I think if they can find a #2 and a #3 receiver you will  see AR back to the AR we are used to seeing and the offense will be lethal again.

Defensively, I don't think it is scheme so much as a weakness in personnel.  They really need a DE to team up with Clark and an ILB who is physical and will partner up with Martinez if he is back.

 

ammo posted:

A great team season but not a great QB season. When was the last time you saw AR12  really step into a throw and drive it downfield?  Not yesterday, not many times vs. Seattle and not at all vs. Detoilet.  On most of his passes this season he is either back peddling or throwing flat footed.  He needs to get back to doing what great QBs do,  step up and drive the ball.  He looks like he never wants to move up in the pocket because he might get hurt. Keep playing like that and he will suffer a career ending injury.   Watch Mahomes in 2 weeks, that is what Rodgers used to be. 

Too much is made of this.  Often.  He's been throwing off platform, off his back foot and flat footed since at least 2010 to some extent.  He can still make all the throws that way too, and some he really shouldn't be able to.  The throw to Davante on 3rd down late vs. SEA two weeks ago was a perfect example.  He just flicks his wrist. He's earned the right to throw however he wants to.   The off target throws this year was a combo of not having the offense in sync, little talent at WR/TE and probably some ageing.  Very little had to do with "how" he threw.

It’s really tough to gauge this year because this is the first season in a while they’ve been healthy and they won a lot of close games.   They also had a few blowout losses along the way. 

In reality, they were probably more of a 10-6 team than a 13-3 team but even so it was a decent year because they won the division and hosted and won a home playoff game.  

I wish they would have had a better showing against SF but the Niners are simply a better team at this point for a number of reasons.  I also think the loss exposed a few weaknesses that need to be addressed namely the WR and LB and DL positions.  You could also argue DB but with more experience I think they will continue to improve. 

What’s encouraging is the arrow is pointing up and this team is trending in the right direction so assuming Gute doesn’t pull a ThanksTed and make horrible decisions the next couple of years I think they can be expected to compete for an NFC title the next 2-3 years.  They also aren’t totally cash strapped or have a ton of players to deal with in the offseason. 

The watch outs are people will be expecting a lot more now and several players had career type years - namely Z and Aaron Jones.  And as we all know injuries can make or break a season (see Philadelphia).  They also need a little bit of good luck in terms of how some personnel moves work out.  

But it’s all out in front of them so that’s a good place to be. 

Last edited by Tschmack
Timpranillo posted:
TouchdownWhitewaterJesus posted:

+ Our pass defense really stepped up.

——————————————————

- They took our manhood.

I have no issues with opposing fans coming on and trash talking from time to time.  Be consistent, be here when you win and be here when you lose and as long as you're following the rules, welcome and enjoy your time here. 

But, FFS man, if you're gonna play the parody account thing here, do better. This isn't even half assed. It's like 1/128th assed. At best. 

While others get pissed off at your BS, (and maybe that's all you want) I'm not pissed. I'm just embarrassed for you, and your fanbase, if this is the best you got.  A better man (I guess someone with their manhood in tact?) could have sailed under the radar and created an account with some actual nuance, been mildly entertaining, and actually funny to some.  This though?  Sad. Pathetic. A child could produce something 100x more entertaining. 

Step up your game son.  

I am also embarrassed for their fair-weather fan base, but i'll get over it. What will they do next season when they lose all those veteran players due to their mismanaged salary cap situation or all the ill will that players like Rhodes have for their team? Looks like that "great" defense, we have heard about, but rarely got to see, in our sweep of the vikings, will get decimated in the off season. Players like Diggs and what's his name, Theilen?, on offense do not seem to be happy with the way the $84 million man throws the ball to them. Will they be asking for a trade, or are they going to be free agents, soon? Sounds like rebuilding mode, once again, in viking land. All that capital spent on their O Line and it still is as porous as ever. Kark had better hope the vikings don't trade Barr to an NFC North opponent, especially with that O Line. 

Fandame posted:
lambeausouth posted:

Nights like this one really make me wish we’d taken TJ Watt instead of King. King may yet end up being good. He took a step forward this year, though still inconsistent at times. Watt’s All Pro. He would have been a huge boon to the front seven. 

Thanks, Ted!

Please, please stop with the TJ Watt whining. It's over, it's done. Yes, it was a mistake to not take Watt but at least King isn't a total bust. The Watt, Watt, Watt is just getting old, old, old... 

Yes it is and it is time to move on from it.  Now we have a GM I am more confident in that he won't make mistakes like that.  Is he perfect?  no GM is but I have more confidence in him than I did when ROTTT was calling the shots.

I honestly am very confident that the Packers organization from top to bottom will use this arse whooping as a motivational tool all offseason.  I truly am excited to see what Gute does this offseason because I honestly think he was one year ahead of schedule in his rebuild.

DH13 posted:

I'll echo that.  If any of our FO people were on the fence about certain players or positions before this loss, they shouldn't be anymore.  It wasn't "just one game", it was two games against the team you will probably have to beat for the foreseeable future if you want to get back to the bowl.  

And every other team that watches film in the off-season will try to replicate at least some aspects of that game plan. 

It was a weird but enjoyable season. Lots of ugly wins but at the same time SO MUCH WINNING. No one would have expected 14 wins and a sweep of the division. It's kinda hard to judge where we are really at I think as we have the 14 wins in one hand and the embarrassing playoff loss and ugly winning  in the other. I don't know that I've ever seen a defense more dominated in the run game that what we witnessed on Sunday. That said, I still think we are in the top 3-4 teams in the NFC. I think the Saints are much better and we are pretty even with Seattle. We beat them  at home by a few points in a close game and I would guess they would have beat us there by a few points in a close game. It is odd that Seattle and NO can hang with SF though and we clearly cannot and have a long ways to go to catch them. That said, I am very encouraged by some of the talent on this team and the direction we are headed with MLF and Gute.

MichiganPacker2 posted:
DH13 posted:

I'll echo that.  If any of our FO people were on the fence about certain players or positions before this loss, they shouldn't be anymore.  It wasn't "just one game", it was two games against the team you will probably have to beat for the foreseeable future if you want to get back to the bowl.  

And every other team that watches film in the off-season will try to replicate at least some aspects of that game plan. 

They allowed 100+ rushing yards in 12 of 18 games and 150+ yards in 6 of those 12. Pretty sure SF followed a blueprint that was already in place. Most teams tried to pass to keep up with Aaron Rodgers though and in this instance SF didn't need to. Most teams won't be able to run like this because their D won't hold up. 

I keep going back to Pettine's whole "the #1 priority on D will be stopping the pass because that is more important" statement.  I think he knows this likely sacrifices run D performance and is willing to give that up in order to prevent death by the pass.  Is he capable of scheming a D that can do both?  Is it possible without many more high draft picks? 

I didn't see the games SF lost or almost lost so I don't know what those teams did on D that was more successful.  Were they games Kittle missed?  The basic strategy is to do whatever you can to stop their run and make JG beat you.  Then you have to have a good enough pass D to carry that out.  I realize it also depends on how their offenses were performing but that's another topic (any O vs. SF D).

Last edited by DH13

To be fair, you're not supposed to be able to win a track meet with Aaron Rodgers by running the ball. It's a passing league and it's not a dumb idea to making shutting down the pass a priority. The 49ers scheme and execution collaborated with the Packers lack of execution and skill to create something truly unusual in NFL playoff history. 

Last edited by Grave Digger

Absolutely.  And it took SF's suffocating D to allow that to happen.  But the $60k question is what do you have to do to beat it?  SF is a wholly unique entity in the NFL right now.  They will no doubt face new challenges next year as OC's will have a fully season of tape and offseason of time to counter.  They'll be around for the foreseeable future with a young team and a healthy cap.  

Last edited by DH13

DH13,  There are a couple of tried and true things in the NFL and that some coordinator will figure out the blue print to beat an offense or a defense.  The others are injuries and that sooner or later all of those defensive players will want to be paid.  

The question for me is will the Packers make all of the successful moves that will get their talent up to the next level to beat them?  Time will tell I guess.

How do you beat it? Scheme wise they’re not doing anything terribly new or exotic. SF is talented across the board, especially on the OL, and they execute really well. The backbone of the run scheme is the same zone scheme Denver used back in the 2000’s under Mike Shanny, we’re just seeing a wide variety of run concepts used out of it with multiple options on every play and truly some great situational play calling my Kyle Shanny. So we’re always going to see them run well, it’s a hard scheme to defend unless you’re a pretty stacked defense with very disciplined players. That doesn’t mean 9 ypc on 40 runs, but SF will always be a strong run team IMO. Beyond that they use a pretty wide variety of routes and generally use a lot of pre- and post-snap movement to freeze defenders and create holes. Again though a lot of is exceptional playcalling by Shanny and a deep understanding of what his opponent is going to do coverage wise. I think the best way to beat them is 1) have talented players on the backend who can hold up 1on1 and force their receivers to win those 1on1 battles 2) pressure the fuck out of Jimmy G to disrupt timing 3) extreme eye discipline from ILBs and Safeties against the run with a DL that is active and pressures run lanes 4) attack Kittle before the game and break his leg because that guy is savvy as fuck and will attack the holes in your coverage all day.

Last edited by Grave Digger
DH13 posted:

Absolutely.  And it took SF's suffocating D to allow that to happen.  But the $60k question is what do you have to do to beat it?  SF is a wholly unique entity in the NFL right now.  They will no doubt face new challenges next year as OC's will have a fully season of tape and offseason of time to counter.  They'll be around for the foreseeable future with a young team and a healthy cap.  

Build/scheme a monster oline.  Seriously.  Mayo is dedicated to the run game. 

Honestly, this reminds me of McVince's experiments into ZBS.  Who cares if you have athletic olinemen if the Dline is as or more athletic, negating cut blocks and stunts. 

I can't believe I'm saying this but having a guy like Campen (or input), who failed miserably with a pure ZBS scheme and eventually adapted to a more hybrid scheme when TT drafted Lang and Sittion, may go a long ways.  I think Campen learned the hard way.  That ZBS scheme was a joke.  They had to adapt when TT said fuck it to the whole convert a TE crap and drafted straight up olinemen.  I can't speak for what Campen did in Cleveland but he at least grew as a coach in Green Bay and put together a respectable concept that's worth co-opting.  I think the oline was pretty solid this year but they need a bit of a hogger mentality against Dlines like SF.  One thing to be said for Campen was the "legal holding" technique he taught.

I'd also say the idea of drafting a pure blocking TE or adding to Vitale's (I'm not really sure Vitale is in the cards) role may be a necessity too if they're really going to grind teams down.  Shit, maybe they'll strike gold with the whole Looney experiment.  Then we can hear other teams talk about the whole "make Rodgers beat you" hilarity. 

Last edited by Henry

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