GAMEDAY--Pete Carrion's hawks vs Packers

NedFlanders posted:

What could a fresh, creative offensive mind do with AR, AJ and a few fresh young receivers? I'd love to find out. Remember how exciting it was when Holmgren brought the WCO to Farvre?

If a new coach can get Rodgers to throw that fukking dumpoff to win the game then bring him on. Shitting on Rodgers doesn’t absolve MM, they can both be causing the problem. Getting rid of Rodgers is idiotic, he’s a HOF QB who probably knows more about playing QB than any QB in NFL history, but fukk, the guy has to get his shit together. 

This game, and others this year, featured an undermanned and young defense in a new scheme, it’s not ridiculous to ask Aaron Rodgers to win a shootout, it’s what he’s here for. 

lambeausouth posted:

Look. Rodgers didn't have a great night. Should have taken some underneath stuff to keep drives going instead of going for the long ball.

But those of you complaining he "doesn't throw the ball away". What have you guys been watching all year? Rodgers spent the first half of the season throwing the ball away to avoid sacks. He never forces the ball. Ever. He's thrown one interception in ten games. 

One. 

I agree with everything you said, but I'll argue a bit with Rodgers having a poor night. He was 21 of 30 for 332 yards, 2 TDS, and 0 interceptions despite being sacked 5 times. None of the sacks were terrible decisions, but he was put in bad situations by the play calling and scheme on most of them. He threw several balls to Adams that maybe 5 QBs can complete in the league. The throw across his body 60 yards downfield is one maybe 5 QBs in history can make. His last pass was tipped at the line against an all out blitz when Carroll knew they were very unlikely to run on a 3rd and 2. 

We are criticizing a QB who had 9 incompletions, no interceptions, no fumbles.

Incompletions - so where did he mess up? 

1. His first incompletion was a throwaway to avoid a sack and stay in FG range (which Crosby missed).

2. His second incompletion was before the 54 yard TD to Tonyan. It was a throwaway.

3 and 4. He had two incompletions on the Jamaal Williams 3 and out drive when no one was open. One was a throwaway, 

5. Next incompletion was a third and long bomb to Adams.

6. The next incompletion was the long pass to Adams that should have been PI on Wagner(that Rodgers had to escape pressure and throw on the run 40 yards downfield).

7. Then an incompletion to ESB before the 57 yard bomb to Adams. 

8. A deep pass to MVS on the first play of the last drive (not a Jones or Adams call). The underneath route to Jones was there for about 3 yards (Jones would have had to beat 3 guys to get more than 5 yards). Yes. It would have been nice, but not a game changer. 

9. Last pass which I think was tipped. 

Every sack was a play on which he was under pressure and trying to get out of the pocket. 

My point is that almost every incompletion happened because he was going with how the play was designed. 

For christ's sakes, he had a QB rating of 128.3 and completed 70% of his passes. No other QB in the league does that with what Rodgers was working with in terms of scheme tonight.

 

michiganjoe posted:

Packers 3-11 on third down. Game is a good example of how misleading QB stats can be. They say AR played pretty well but he really didn't.

I hate watching the All-22 after losses but this deserves a look.  If I don't post gifs of the 3rd downs within a couple days remind me.   

During the game it appeared to me that it was play calling.   5 or 7 step drops on 3rd n 3 leading to sacks.   Will see, tape doesn't lie. 

If Rodgers has become Favre then Mike has become Sherman. And Favre listened to Mike when Mike took over for Sherman. 

So kick Mikes ass out of GB and hire Lincoln Riley and get this offense out of Mikes bogged down clouded assed view of his self fabricated genius. 

Grave Digger posted:
NedFlanders posted:

What could a fresh, creative offensive mind do with AR, AJ and a few fresh young receivers? I'd love to find out. Remember how exciting it was when Holmgren brought the WCO to Farvre?

If a new coach can get Rodgers to throw that fukking dumpoff to win the game then bring him on. Shitting on Rodgers doesn’t absolve MM, they can both be causing the problem. Getting rid of Rodgers is idiotic, he’s a HOF QB who probably knows more about playing QB than any QB in NFL history, but fukk, the guy has to get his shit together. 

This game, and others this year, featured an undermanned and young defense in a new scheme, it’s not ridiculous to ask Aaron Rodgers to win a shootout, it’s what he’s here for. 

Bullshit. He’s a ****ing mess because his coach is a mess and can’t provide an actual game plan. 

Mike has skated by living off Rodgers. And now Rodgers isn’t playing within Mikes system? Are you actually trying to sell that pile of nonsense? 

ChilliJon posted:
Grave Digger posted:
NedFlanders posted:

What could a fresh, creative offensive mind do with AR, AJ and a few fresh young receivers? I'd love to find out. Remember how exciting it was when Holmgren brought the WCO to Farvre?

If a new coach can get Rodgers to throw that fukking dumpoff to win the game then bring him on. Shitting on Rodgers doesn’t absolve MM, they can both be causing the problem. Getting rid of Rodgers is idiotic, he’s a HOF QB who probably knows more about playing QB than any QB in NFL history, but fukk, the guy has to get his shit together. 

This game, and others this year, featured an undermanned and young defense in a new scheme, it’s not ridiculous to ask Aaron Rodgers to win a shootout, it’s what he’s here for. 

Bullshit. He’s a ****ing mess because his coach is a mess and can’t provide an actual game plan. 

Mike has skated by living off Rodgers. And now Rodgers isn’t playing within Mikes system? Are you actually trying to sell that pile of nonsense? 

MM's system is to design isolation routes and a lot of one receiver routes. When Jordy Nelson was scoring TDs on double post moves everyone thought it was great. But, there is no real second option on a lot of them other than sandlot scrambling if the isolation route is covered. 

What we saw tonight is the system. 

GBFanForLife posted:

So you are saying he is coached to take a sack when Aaron Jones is wide ****ing open over the middle with no one within 5 yards of him?

Rodgers never looked at Jones Like Seattle knew he’d never look at Jones. It’s funny. 

MM probably knows he's done. He's got a bunch of kids that have only lived in Green Bay that are now going to have to move. I'd be sick if I was him as well (besides knowing you've probably blown 2-3 games this year based on mismanagement). 

He was the anti-Holmgren in many ways. MM could have won 5 Super Bowls and he'd have never wanted to leave GB. Holmgren wanted out as soon as possible. Holmgren was creative, MM valued continuity above all else. 

I wish him well in Cleveland. We all know it's happening. 

michiganjoe posted:

Lots of questions if that ball was tipped; apparently not.

Ok. So we lost the game because Rodgers thew one bad ball on a 3rd and 2. That's not much margin for error and that's the problem. 

ChilliJon posted:
GBFanForLife posted:

So you are saying he is coached to take a sack when Aaron Jones is wide ****ing open over the middle with no one within 5 yards of him?

Rodgers never looked at Jones Like Seattle knew he’d never look at Jones. It’s funny. 

Really stupid take. He was wide open right in front of Rodgers. Seattle blew coverage and got away with it cause Rodgers missed a easy completion. 

ChilliJon posted:
Grave Digger posted:
NedFlanders posted:

What could a fresh, creative offensive mind do with AR, AJ and a few fresh young receivers? I'd love to find out. Remember how exciting it was when Holmgren brought the WCO to Farvre?

If a new coach can get Rodgers to throw that fukking dumpoff to win the game then bring him on. Shitting on Rodgers doesn’t absolve MM, they can both be causing the problem. Getting rid of Rodgers is idiotic, he’s a HOF QB who probably knows more about playing QB than any QB in NFL history, but fukk, the guy has to get his shit together. 

This game, and others this year, featured an undermanned and young defense in a new scheme, it’s not ridiculous to ask Aaron Rodgers to win a shootout, it’s what he’s here for. 

Bullshit. He’s a ****ing mess because his coach is a mess and can’t provide an actual game plan. 

Mike has skated by living off Rodgers. And now Rodgers isn’t playing within Mikes system? Are you actually trying to sell that pile of nonsense? 

Right because you know what the gameplan is and know it’s not “an actual gameplan”. Of course. How stupid of me. MM made bad calls, Rodgers made bad decisions. How on earth can you sell a pile of nonsense that is NOT Rodgers fault for missing a wide open receiver? Or not handing the ball off two weeks ago to Aaron Jones and instead keeping it and running it himself inexplicably? Or the 30 open routes he’s passed on this season to try and push the ball deep? Don’t try and throw out some horseshit that it’s the systems fault or the gameplan, that’s the laziest opinion I’ve ever heard, RODGERS JUST FUKKED UP. Admitting Rodgers fukked to doesn’t diminish your idea MM is a phony, both things can be true.

ChilliJon posted:

Aaron Jones touched the ball 6 times in the second half. With a lead the majority of the second half. 

Mike McCarthy needs to be fired. Possibly within the next hour. 

Tomorrow is the time to do it with the mini-bye, but there is no obvious successor on the staff to run the offensive side of things that would change anything. Firing MM requires redoing the entire offensive scheme (and the only system Rodgers has ever played in). That has to happen, but you need months to implement it. 

lovepack posted:

Oy! It's another wasted year. I wasted $120 on nfl all access, and I won't even use it.

Or......run the table!

I'm conflicted.

 

 

3 of the last 6 games are against teams that are tanking or playing out the string (Lions, Cardinals, and Jets). Probably looking at something like 8-7-1 unless they totally implode after a potential loss to the Vikings next week. 

Grave Digger posted:
ChilliJon posted:
Grave Digger posted:
NedFlanders posted:

What could a fresh, creative offensive mind do with AR, AJ and a few fresh young receivers? I'd love to find out. Remember how exciting it was when Holmgren brought the WCO to Farvre?

If a new coach can get Rodgers to throw that fukking dumpoff to win the game then bring him on. Shitting on Rodgers doesn’t absolve MM, they can both be causing the problem. Getting rid of Rodgers is idiotic, he’s a HOF QB who probably knows more about playing QB than any QB in NFL history, but fukk, the guy has to get his shit together. 

This game, and others this year, featured an undermanned and young defense in a new scheme, it’s not ridiculous to ask Aaron Rodgers to win a shootout, it’s what he’s here for. 

Bullshit. He’s a ****ing mess because his coach is a mess and can’t provide an actual game plan. 

Mike has skated by living off Rodgers. And now Rodgers isn’t playing within Mikes system? Are you actually trying to sell that pile of nonsense? 

Right because you know what the gameplan is and know it’s not “an actual gameplan”. Of course. How stupid of me. MM made bad calls, Rodgers made bad decisions. How on earth can you sell a pile of nonsense that is NOT Rodgers fault for missing a wide open receiver? Or not handing the ball off two weeks ago to Aaron Jones and instead keeping it and running it himself inexplicably? Or the 30 open routes he’s passed on this season to try and push the ball deep? Don’t try and throw out some horseshit that it’s the systems fault or the gameplan, that’s the laziest opinion I’ve ever heard, RODGERS JUST FUKKED UP. Admitting Rodgers fukked to doesn’t diminish your idea MM is a phony, both things can be true.

I get the sense you coach or have coached. 

One thing I know beyond all reasonable argument. Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Mike McCarthy is a HC. That point isn’t up for discussion. 

Mike is wasting Aaron Rodgers time at this point. Aaron isn’t missing open receivers because everything is a fire drill and Aaron is ****ing sick of it. This offense is not a plan. It’s Rodgers and Mikes belief he actually matters. 

Packdog posted:
BrainDed posted:
Packdog posted:
Blair Kiel posted:

I fukking hate Mike McCarthy.

You fat dumb slob.

Stay classy. 

Somebody call the PC police.   

Far be it for you to understand human decency. 

He is obese.  His condition has been worsening every year.  I'm going out on a limb and guessing it's not a thyroid problem.   Human decency does not require me to be sympathetic to self inflicted conditions.  

YATittle posted:

Game was lost when we didn’t score six after the long completion to Adams late in the game and Rodgers forgetting the simple value of moving the chains with short passes, at least those that don’t stick to his hand.

Common thread running through the 2018 season.

I’m sure someone knows this quickly but what is the Packers record since The Fail Mary game?  Are they above .500 over that stretch?  

Hard to believe this has been an average to below average team over that period with 12 but it should be a lesson to Murphy and Gute that you can’t sit back and accept mediocre results like they have.  At a minimum Capers should have been canned after the Seattle playoff game and you could have made a strong case to clean house including MM.   

Its not just this year that has been a wasted season but several seasons with a fading TT and crap coaching staff. 

Now we sit here with a lame duck MM and a good DC in Pettine and likely have to start over in 2019.  Always possible they could retain Pettine but a new HC may want his own guy.  I’m confident Gute can find the right talent but not impressed with Murphy and have no faith he can find the right guy.  He had better turn that responsibility over to Gute or he should be relieved of his duties as well. 

You can analyze each breakdown and say that players didn't make plays. Those can be found in pretty much every game. Rodgers continues to show, at times, he has skills beyond belief. But I think there's a certain chemistry that happens when coach and player are on the same page and thinking alike. It brings out the best and makes good players great. That spark is not there between AR and MM. Rodgers keeps trying to ad lib and make the big play on his own and MM has very little to offer beyond that. The throw in the dirt was pretty symbolic of their relationship. Not really sure why they punted it away after that. No faith in Rodgers to pick it up on 4th down or are we expecting another miracle later somehow. Can't have it both ways.

ChilliJon posted:

I get the sense you coach or have coached. 

One thing I know beyond all reasonable argument. Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Mike McCarthy is a HC. That point isn’t up for discussion. 

Mike is wasting Aaron Rodgers time at this point. Aaron isn’t missing open receivers because everything is a fire drill and Aaron is ****ing sick of it. This offense is not a plan. It’s Rodgers and Mikes belief he actually matters. 

Rodgers is a better QB than Mike is a HC for sure. There's no doubt about that. I think that's true of 31 HCs and the ~500 assistant coaches in the NFL though. 

I would argue it's a fire drill because he initiates the fire drill. Yes it's built into the offense, but I don't think the plan is ever for that to happen every play. Rodgers has had options every week, but he hears footsteps and starts scrambling hence the fire drill.

This play:

Is this play:

Image result for brett favre giants NFC championship INT

Except Rodgers took a drive killing sack instead of chancing an INT. 

Yes Mike's scheme has always put too much pressure on players to win 1on1 battles to the point where 1 missed assignment or lost battle can doom many of the plays. Players have to study film and have a strong grasp of tendencies and what adjustments they need to be thinking about. That's a really fine line the offense toes and while it's incredibly frustrating, it's also the reason there are huge opportunities. When you have an offense teeming with veteran savvy, like in 2011, who can all win their battles and dominate defenses then it's a brilliant scheme that hums. When you have 2 rookies, a 2nd year RB, a shaky OL, and backup TEs playing key roles then it can be haphazard at best. That's not a defense of MM, it's the reality. Dom Capers defense was the same way, it relied heavily on players winning 1on1's, but when MD Jennings and Jarius Wynn are your starters then there's massive holes because they won't EVER win 1on1's. 

Josh McDaniels, Sean McVay, and Kyle Shannahan's schemes don't rely so heavily on 1) those 1on1's to be the core opportunities for the offense and 2) so many adjustments from the WRs and QB mid-play. I look at it as in MM's scheme you're seeing Rodgers/Receivers vs. 2nd/3rd level players whereas in those other schemes you're seeing the offensive play caller vs. the DC. Both schemes have merit, MM's scheme puts the pressure on DBs and LBs to play smart and disciplined football while the other schemes put pressure on the whole defense to read and react quickly. 

Herschel posted:
michiganjoe posted:

Horrible play by Greene.

I partially disagree. He timed it badly trying to make up for a horrible play by Alexander. The rookie corners are getting worked tonight.

Greene never looked back for the ball. He just ran into the Seattle receiver. Jaire still almost made the INT. It would have been negated due to the PI call, though.

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