I'm thinking he'll have a shot to replace many fired coaches after the year is over, but will he be a contender or has his time passed?
Discuss.
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Yes. If the Browns fire Kitchens and MM doesn't at least get an interview there it will say even more.
The Packers success is neither a positive nor a negative for MM IMO.
He came into GB and was fresh, new, and successful. Same thing MLF is doing. The thing that could submarine McCarthy's hiring is if he blows the interview by resting on what he's done versus talking about how he has learned and will change, improve on his scheme(s). I also think his hiring will hang heavily on coaches he would want on his staff. He's a Super Bowl winning coach. He'll be a top candidate when Black Monday hits the NFL on December 30th.
It's the "circle of life" in the NFL. The only thing that's been validated is that MM became stale and moved on. He was a success and you can't take that away. MLF will eventually move on too. Only thing we don't know yet is if he'll have a Lombardi in his back pocket when he goes.
^^^^ Agree.
There were major personnel changes that took place this off season including a huge influx of talent on defense. That has nothing to do with judging MM's success or failure.
Schematically, that might be a different story. Aaron Jones is clearly being utilized FAR better then MM would have thought of. Same holds true for guys like Marcedes Lewis, to some degree Graham, and the FB and RB positions in general.
The best thing MM can do is absorb all the changes going on in today's NFL and realize that's what he's going to have to do as a future coach. He was still operating in a 2011 style defense with those dated schemes and rules that have since changed. He actually may be better off taking an OC role. He may find far less stress doing that and can focus on the area of football he used to be pretty good at.
No real evidence I've seen of any serious interest in MM after his dismissal. The damage was really done prior to this year's success.
I can't imagine MM'cho ever taking an OC job again.
Going to be interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Kitchens is obviously in over his head.
Does MM even want to coach again? Was Kitchens forced on Dorsey? Or was he on board with it?
If you're not willing to change with the times, you're destined to fail.
I say no. MM's behavior around high school refs took care of that.
Hungry5 posted:I also think his hiring will hang heavily on coaches he would want on his staff. He's a Super Bowl winning coach. He'll be a top candidate when Black Monday hits the NFL on December 30th.
MM's last offensive coordinator Joe Philbin is not currently employed by an NFL team.
His long, long-time defensive coordinator Dom Capers, after being out of the NFL in 2018, is a lowly consultant in Jacksonville.
MM's Associate Head Coach for much of his time in GB Winston Moss is not working in the NFL.
His last 2 special teams coordinators, Zook and Slocum, are not coaching in the NFL.
MM's final QB coach, Frank Cignetti, is also without an NFL job.
MM could seemingly get his old GB coaching staff back together without much effort.
Boris posted:Does MM even want to coach again?
Didn't he make overtures to the Jets that just died out?
Boris posted:Going to be interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Kitchens is obviously in over his head.
Does MM even want to coach again? Was Kitchens forced on Dorsey? Or was he on board with it?
If you're not willing to change with the times, you're destined to fail.
Would he want to coach up Baker? Can anyone?
I like the kids skills but not sure he listens to anyone.
Some of these organizations like the Dolphins, Bengals, Jets, and yes STILL the Browns until proven otherwise are just dumpster 🔥🔥.
If you are a HC worth a shit, why in the Hell would you ever go there to watch your career implode ? I mean I guess for millions you do it. But unless MM invested his money like an idiot, I highly doubt he’ll coach just to coach.
Mike might get another shot. Maybe. But the better Rodgers looks the less likely it becomes he's going to get that shot.
Any GM that hasn't already decided he wants Mike is going to ask him "Why does 2019 Rodgers look like 2011 Rodgers without Driver, Jordy, Jennings, Finley but he didn't remotely resemble that QB 2015 to 2018?"
That's a very tough question to answer if you're MM. Actually it's almost impossible to answer unless he responds that Rodgers went rogue and submarined everything on his own. Which he can't admit because he was the coach. About all he can say is he wen't square peg round hole for 4 years and he learned it was the absolute wrong choice.
But those 4 years, 2015 to 2018, are going to be tough to work around in an interview if the GM is actually looking for the best HC with a QB that is not Aaron Rodgers.
I have always been confused about what happened with MM. He often talked about the need to change to keep up with the changing NFL. He seemed to see the value of not getting stale or out of date, but then either became rigid about what type of change he would get on board with or he lost his creativity and ingenuity to be able to make the changes that were needed. But hot damn I love the changes that have been made now that he's gone.
I would think MM will get another shot if he wants it. He had a long tenure in the NFL as a HC and won a SB. Now... has he learned anything in his one year off? That's the biggest question.
He's done IMHO. Owners and fans want young innovative coaches. MM is neither.
Yeah, the interesting thing is everyone was looking for the next Sean McVey, who's fallen on hard times at the Rams, but with MLF seeming to be the blueprint for the next hot, young prospect, if Packer success continues they'll be trying to replicate him....
He had 8 million reasons not to coach
tl;dr - the league is in "WE NEED THE NEXT SEAN MCVEY" mode and that more than anything is preventing MM getting a job.
MM never really evolved all that much while here, is woefully behind the times, and whether he can change or not is the most important point to him getting a new job.
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Has it diminished his stock?
The easy answer is this is the NFL and the NFL is a copycat league. For a long time every owner wanted "established" guys and you saw a millions shitty retreads continually get hired over and over and over.
So, I don't think it's his stock that's diminished right now, I just think we're in a current trend of younger, fresher thinking that isn't beholden to the ways "Coach A" did things 12 years ago. The unicorn right now is finding the next Sean McVey. And it will continue for a bit. And MLF having success probably adds to it.
My personal feelings for MM aside, I think that is the bigger issue he's facing vs the last 3 years of lack of performance or some perceived battle of wits with Rodgers. This trend will slow, and we'll move to the next one be it "We need the young college guy!" or "We need an older CEO type that's gonna bring a steady hand" or some such shit. If the league were still in 2012 thinking - McCarthy would have found a job, had he wanted one, during the off season.
Dr._Bob posted:I have always been confused about what happened with MM. He often talked about the need to change to keep up with the changing NFL. He seemed to see the value of not getting stale or out of date, but then either became rigid about what type of change he would get on board with or he lost his creativity and ingenuity to be able to make the changes that were needed. But hot damn I love the changes that have been made now that he's gone.
Couple things.
First of all, I don't really think that MM evolved all that much while in GB. I'm honestly I'm not saying this as a wholesale criticism. He brought a very innovative and effective scheme to GB! He got Favre to play within it a year in which that team should have made a SB - and to be clear it was no fault whatsoever of MM that they didn't in 2007 that was 100% Favre. But he matched up perfectly with AR in every way. And from 2009-2014 it was as ruthlessly effective as any offense the NFL has seen. And for a long time, one would argue why would he change/evolve, right? It worked! Don't change what isn't broke.
And, as such, I didn't really see it evolve all that much. He talked a lot about evolving. He talked a lot about running the ball more. He talked about better taking advantage of players and getting them in advantageous matchups. He talked a lot. But I don't really think he evolved all that much. He stuck with his assistants longer than he should have. And, he didn't evolve very much the last 3-4 years he was here. That doesn't negate what he did overall. I just think he fell in love with the fact that his offense was one of the best in the game and couldn't be stopped. We all joke about it, but he REALLY believed that if "we do what we do", as long as the players execute, no one can stop them because his scheme was that good.
Secondly, I really think the Seattle game really did a number on him. I really believe that MM took all the criticism he was getting nationally about the Seattle playoff game and doubled down on his belief that what he was doing was right and he wasn't gonna listen to anyone that told him otherwise. Of course his offense was great! Of course his decisions were the right one! Of course his assistants were the right ones. I think he got that stubborn PA thing going and he was gonna prove to everyone that his way was the right way. Or he was gonna die trying. But, I mean realistically, 2009-2014 vs 2015-2018 are just day/night in terms of what the output of this team was. I would argue if there was any evolving from MM it completely died in 2015.
And look - growing up and having the 1st 22 year of my fandom seem as pointless as rooting for the Cleveland Browns did the last 30 years, I absolutely do not take for granted the run MM had. There's like 1-2 franchises I'd trade that run for. But I think the league passed him by. The league has passed lots of guys by. Some never catch up as they cling to their beliefs. Some look inwards and see what they need to do to not only catch up, but blow by their peers. I think Andy Reid was close to that for some time towards the end in Philly. And he changed what he did, and he's back to being one of, if not, the best playcaller in the game.
As others have alluded to, can MM be introspective and really change his long held beliefs? I don't know if he can. I imagine at some point someone will give him a shot to see if that's the case. Personally, I think he's a guy. In baseball parlance, he's a 0.0 WAR guy. I don't think he's horrible. I don't think he's great. I am glad we won a SB in 2010. I am pleased (relatively) that I can bitch about not winning SBs they should have in 2011, 2014, and 2016.
And I'll be the broken record that the failures of the past 3-4 years aren't solely on MM.
If we had an owner that wasn't playing Real Estate Developer Guy maybe he would have made it a point to see that his GM has something very wrong going on, hasn't done a damn thing out side of scouting for years, and has a head coach that is "doing what we do".
If we had a GM that wasn't checked out or going through some serious medical issues, maybe he realizes that depending on nothing but 4th round picks panning out isn't a great strategy when the Cap goes up year after year and striking out on a FA isn't at all the crippling issue it once was. Maybe he holds his coach accountable for not doing a damn thing about the defense for damn near 10 years...
Meanwhile the Bucs hired Geriatric Bruce Arians who keeps yipping away about how experience is the key to everything. His experience with Jamis has really been helping Winston become one of hte best Qbs in the league.
He just burned out and stopped grinding, I think the only beef Rodgers had with him is that. He won’t get a shot until teams believe he’s ready to grind again. He might be enjoying his life away from football, maybe his brother dying and his kids growing up made him take stock of what’s important and grinding like coaches do wasnt it. If that’s the case I wish he would have figured things out sooner and walked away before he had to be fired. Definitely a sad end to a quality legacy in GB.
WRT his staff, we still have a few of those guys who are on staff and several others scattered around the league.
WRT his staff, we still have a few of those guys who are on staff and several others scattered around the league.
Not many.
To answer the question, I don't think his stock has diminished, but demand is currently very limited .
Anywhere MM may wind up (as a HC), I don't think he would enjoy the same situation he had in Green Bay. TT was a 'hands-off' GM; the next one may not be.
Same with an owner; some are more meddlesome than others.
He would also have to develop some kind of accountability for the coordinators and position coaches, because I don't think any GM in his right mind would let him get by with what he did here. And I'm not sure he would want to coach under those conditions.
Same for coming back as a coordinator or QB coach. He could certainly do it, and I would think a young coach would value having him on staff as well as the perpetually QB-needy teams, but would he?
it’s possible the Seattle loss in 2014 fucked Mike up beyond repair.
For 57 minutes he coached the game of his life. Then he had to answer questions about his staff. Then fire some of them.
YATittle posted:"WRT his staff, we still have a few of those guys who are on staff and several others scattered around the league."
Not many.
For a guy who coached in the NFL for 13 years, MM's coaching tree is shockingly barren.
Remember how he would never let his assistants apply for other jobs?
He ended up with a staff of complacent yes men.
And never forget MM's assertion that "Dom Capers is an outstanding football coach."
Ever.
It is what it is. Mike got Favre to play along until Favre went full Favre. Then he got Charles Woodson to buy in which was no small effort. Mike won a Lombardi Trophy and that can’t ever be glossed over. I don’t like him. But I will forever respect his efforts.
I'm not sure he ever wants to coach again. Wasn't there some talk in 2016-2017 about moving up to GM? I think that is what MM really wants to do, evaluate talent, run a draft, get free agents and make trades. He has done all he can on the coaching side.
MM got Favre to do film study like he never had before and the result was one of Favre's better seasons (2007).
Early in his career MM used lots of different packages. To me, over time he got enamored with Rdogers unbelievable deep accuracy and wanted the highlight plays. He and Rodgers needed the change.
Again, has MM learned from his past? That's what I'd want to dig into if I were a GM interviewing him.
He will coach again in the NFL, either as a HC or OC.
ChilliJon posted:it’s possible the Seattle loss in 2014 fucked Mike up beyond repair.
For 57 minutes he coached the game of his life. Then he had to answer questions about his staff. Then fire some of them.
AND not enough of them. Moss, Capers, etc.
Dr._Bob posted:MM would make a helluva special teams coach.
I think he would even make a better janitor for some team
Most damning indictment of MM to me has always been the performance of the team in the absence of AR. Compare and contrast that to Sean Payton and the Saints with Teddy Bridgewater this year.....
The game has changed. There is less and less tolerance for Pittsburgh Macho by players and fans.
People will point to Belicheat as someone from the old school who has been successful using old school macho. I call bullshit. Don't confuse toughness and old school mentality for macho. Macho is a refusal to change and evolve.
"We do what we do."
Belicheat has shown throughout his career that he is willing to change, evolve and grow and he possesses the rare combination of being able to hire really well, and evaluate talent really well. McVince brought us coaching All-Stars like Winston Moss, Shawn Slocum, Ron Zook and Frank "The Stank" Cignetti.