Looking for positives, we lost both the turn over & the average yards gained per pass attempt stat, yet we only lost by 3. In all other games which that happened yesterday, the team that won those two stats won by 2 or more TDs. (SD, Arizona, Denver). IF our passing game gets better, we typically don't turn the ball over, next 4 games at home will tell a lot.
+ 17 points against a hot QB/WR combo on the road. Should be an easy win.
+ Defense played great including Randall. Need to use help in future on #14
- Play calling is screwed. Has been since week 6 last year.
- We talk about our WR's like they are great and every team will be looking at out 8th guy longingly. I would trade them all for #14 at this point.
- not going to get fixed no matter what MM says unless he gets his head out of his butt. Where was this prolific TE that would clear the middle for our offense? First play should have been 2 TE's with 89 down the middle.
Rodgers seems to be only looking for the difficult throws. Too much back shoulder throwing, which is really difficult. If you aren't accurate, don't attempt hard throws. Bradford ran a simple scheme with easy throws that allowed he WRs to make a play, Rodgers forced difficult throws in to tight windows that required exact timing...despite the fact that he, Jordy, And Cook barely played in preseason. They all looked rusty and like they were still acclimating to live action. McCarthy is cutting Rodgers too much slack, he needs to get it under control.
The addition of Cook and getting Jordy back have apparently made no difference. It's the same lethargic and ineffective offense we saw last year. MM appears clueless as how to fix it and if he can't TT needs to bring in someone that can.
Positives: I won my fantasy football matchup last night.
Negatives: I normally roll my eyes when I see the "PFF Positional Ranking" displayed for various players during SNF player intros.
That said, 2 of those rankings... I thought they were actually onto something. Davante Adams 2015 PFF rank of 111 for WRs, I'd say that one was spot on, and frankly, he's been just as bad in 2016. The biggest stunner of a ranking was Aaron Rodgers at #12 for QBs. He used to be #1 or at least close to it, a drop to #12 in performance is something this team has a ZERO percent chance of overcoming. He's too important to continue to play at a mediocre level like that.
-Minimal rhythm to the offense especially the passing game. I agree that the accuracy seems to be off and trying to make difficult throws seems to be the MO rather than doing the simple things well. It seems like he is one hopping many dump offs. Cook had a bunch of green in front of him if he puts the dump off in his arms and it is on his shoestrings.
-Monty before he was hurt last year, really started making an impact. I'd like to see them try to use him a little more.
Seemed like other than Diggs, the defense had the rest of the team in hand. I thought that the last PI was in line with what was a no call earlier in the game.
I'm not panicking YET. As crappy as the team looked they still could have won. If the offense plays this way the rest of the year than I will be in full panic mode and expect a new coach to be brought into Green Bay. This is McCarthy's make or break year. If a new coach comes in and Rodgers still sucks then it will be time for a new QB too. Sorry, but this is getting old now.
The biggest negative was Aaron Rodgers. I am so sick of him dancing around and then throwing it out of bounds. Please throw the damn ball. Maybe the receivers will make a play. Maybe not. The people on the sidelines sure as hell aren't going to make a play. It seems like he is so scared to throw an interception due to his ego.
I like Rodgers, but I have not been impressed for a while now.
+ If the offense was playing to their capability I think this defense is championship worthy. I don't care how many yards Bradford threw for. They have the ability to stop a team when it counts. When was the last time we could say that.
michiganjoe posted:The addition of Cook and getting Jordy back have apparently made no difference. It's the same lethargic and ineffective offense we saw last year. MM appears clueless as how to fix it and if he can't TT needs to bring in someone that can.
That ain't happening at least during the season. Probably not after either unless it is a complete collapse which IMO will not happen. Team will win enough to remain relevant and in the playoff picture. I wanted more, thought there would be more but my expectations have been somewhat lowered.
The talent that I have been assured by the experts is better than just about all other NFL teams is either not that good, drastically underperforming, not being put in positions to excel or not being coached properly. Or dare I say some of all of the above.
We shall see.
I keep going back to last year as to what has changed with the offense
Even with the loss of Jordy they were rolling. Then Montgomery gets hurt and Adams starts getting a lot more looks and we all know what happened there.
Fast forward to the AZ game. More Abby and Janis and less Adams and they could have won that one.
As good as Rodgers is his WRs need to make plays. More often than not that ain't Adams. He was historically bad last season and has not improved this year.
I am sure he's a good kid but enough is enough. If Monty and Abby and Janis are healthy get them in there. Rodgers is trying to damn hard to build up Adams and it's not working. Turn the page already.
Bradford is being praised for the best performance of his career, we gave up 8 plays over 20 yards---and the Vikings scored 17 points. Our QB was inaccurate, sloppy with the ball, receivers couldn't get separation, we rushe19 times even though we were getting some big runs--and we could have scored 17 points had we kicked the FG instead of going for it on 4th down.
There certainly are concerns about offense, the lack of rhythm, the big plays given up on defense. But its a long season, I didn't expect us to go undefeated, and we have our next four games at home, with our toughest opponent being the Giants after the bye. If we aren't at least 4-2 after that homestand, then it may be time to panic.
They pounded the living crap out of Bradford last night. The defense certainly played well enough to win.
A "quick strike" offense should have the ball coming out quick and the defense rushing to get re-set after every play. It's a not just a no-huddle with guys running all over the field where three guys have to come back from a different county every play so the defense can take their time and run deception. They run a fast break formation with a slow-as-hell execution. Rodgers needs to get the damned ball out faster.
Rodgers also needs to get back to the Favre Philosophy of throwing to everyone. He can't throw to guys on the bench, but he can throw to guys other than 80% Jordy, Cobb and DePlorable. He was so good at that before last year.
And what's with the happy feet?
McCarthy finally gets aggressive....at the dumbest possible time. 4th & 2 in a grind it out, 3-point game? Kick the damned field goal, tie it up and go from there.
And get some personnel groups that don't contain DiSastrous.
17 points is good, doesn't matter what kind of yards they gave up. That's fluff. 14 points from an offense capable of averaging 30 is not good enough. Rodgers was the dysfunction, not McCarthy.
++++
The sky is not falling. There is a lot to build on from this and the JAX game. MM's teams have had slow starts, last year being an exception. I've been really impressed with the DL and LBs. Generally, the OL has been pretty good. Cook is a great target and I'll bet he gets more involved as the season progresses.
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While there were some special teams positives, overall I think they were poor. Schum did NOT flip the the field - our average starting field position had to be inside the 20 the entire game. Also, EVERY punt is fair caught? We lost the "hidden yards" part of the game.
Turnovers - not just Rodgers, but also Adams. Enough has been said on that.
CB depth is not what we thought it was. Injuries are decimating the CB's. Gunter is a nice story, but he's just too slow. Here's to hoping our young CB's, including Hawkins, heal up quick and grow up fast. Cannot rely on Sam to come back soon (or ever).
General thoughts:
- defense front 7 and OL played great
- 7 WRs on roster but only 3 take snaps
- if Adams is on the field, you lose....period
- Bradford (with team 2 weeks) has better timing with WRs than AR
- do MM and AR know you can pass it to the middle of the field?
- Lacy does not need to be extended
- Randall needs Shields like Cobb needs Jordy
- Packers still have not recovered from the Seattle NFC championship game meltdown
- the 3 most important people (QB, HC, and GM) in the organization are stubborn and stuck in their ways
Please stop:
- having Rodgers hold the ball to throw. Timing patterns, move the sticks. If Devante Adams can't get open off the ball put in someone who can (Abbrederis).
- running stretch run plays. Win between the tackles where Lacy can use his power to move the sticks
- playing outside technique if your man to man with no help inside against their best (and only good) WR
- going for it in FG range. Take the points!!!!!
- neglecting the TE position
- neglecting the screen game
BrainDed posted:Forgot a positive. It's only a matter of time before Bradford gets injured and the Vikes don't have a QB or 1st round pick.
/salty
..or a star RB if AP messed up his leg like I think he did. Asiata and McKinnon are not the RBs you want to have replacing AP. Maybe Spielman will give away their 2nd round pick to get a RB...
Posted this in the game thread, but I think it belongs here:
AR and MM are trying too hard for explosive plays. Last night we saw Rodgers again dancing around looking for the big play when 10-15 yard plays were right in front of him, and then act pissy when he had to throw short. We saw MM give up on the run way toooo soon, even when Lacy was pounding it. Our biggest downfield plays were PIs.
Last night we were at our best when we took what the D gave us, moved the chains, and stayed patient. What's wrong with grinding out a win 4 to 10 yards at a time? Yes, take a shot now and then, but this looking for the home run every other play has got to end.
Disagree, BD. McKinnon is slipperier than AP and a whole lot better blocker and receiver. It wouldn't surprise me if the Vikes are actually better off without AP this year, especially as AP wants his carries. Him being gone means the offense opens up and diversifies.
Right now I would take a look at CJ Spiller, who is a FA...for us. He would be more valuable than two WRs that don't get any offensive snaps.
Pakrz posted:packmon posted:Packers have 2 dependable WR's in an offense that demands 3.
Just because you keep saying it doesn't mean it's true. Monty and Abby are very talented. Davis is too. I'll give you Adams... he isn't worth a **** and shouldn't be on the field. That's a continuously poor coaching decision.
Monty, Abby and Davis never get to play anything other than STs, either. There's the poor coaching, imo...
Not having AP is going to hurt Bradford but not because AP is still great. He's not.
Those loaded boxes to stop AP go away.
AP looked done before last nights injury.
I follow up MR2121's good post.
1. Sam Shields is a huge loss. Outside of Rodgers, CM3, and Mike Daniels he's probably their most important player and you could argue he's more important than CM3 and Daniels. No way Diggs runs wild last night if Shields plays. Unfortunately, Sam needs to retire. He's on his fifth concussion. He needs to have a chance to know who he is when he's 50. Unfortunately, he's probably a CTE case we'll about in 20 years.
2. It's nice to have Nelson back, but he's clearly not the same guy he was before the injury, you can't expect him to be - he's 13 months away from an ACL reconstruction. It's not clear whether he'll ever get back to where he was. As for now, he's basically a better version of what James Jones was last year - a really good possession receiver with good chemistry with Rodgers. Teams aren't afraid of him beating them deep - until he does they will play them differently. However, he's a 31 year old coming off of a major knee injury. It's more likely than not we'll never see peak Jordy Nelson again.
3. Rodgers missed some throws, but the problem with the receivers is still there from last year. You have Cobb, Adams, and Nelson as you main three. At this point for Jordy, it's still a cohort with no speed to beat you deep. It's compounded with Lacy as your RB. It's a bunch of guys with average to below average speed. For the last year plus, the margin for error that Rodgers has is small. If he doesn't play his "A" game, they don't move the ball.
4. Because of point #3, each drive is a slog. Even if a play is well blocked and Lacy breaks into the open, it's a 15-20 yard gain. If the same play would happen with a RB with speed, the play has the potential to go to the house. Since the Nelson injury, the big plays almost never happened for this offense. Every drive seems to require 10 plays to score. That's a lot more chances for something to go wrong.
5. All these point to one major thing - without Shields and without a fully recovered Nelson this team does not have enough speed playing on the field. There were 3-4 plays a year where Shields would run down one of the faster receivers in the league by gaining 5-10 yards on the guy on what would have been a 70 or 80 yard score. A healthy, younger Nelson would run away from a guy on a stutter and go and announcers would marvel at how a guy like him (avoiding saying he was a white guy) could run away from defenders. They have to get these guys with speed playing - Janis, Trevor Davis, the new DBs.
This is still a decent team and, if the Packers would have had Shields, probably a to 5 defense. The offensive guys other than Cook have played together a long time, they should have chemistry. I just think they've overestimated their talent at the skill positions on offense so that if Rodgers doesn't play at a HOF level they struggle to score.
Fandame posted:Disagree, BD. McKinnon is slipperier than AP and a whole lot better blocker and receiver. It wouldn't surprise me if the Vikes are actually better off without AP this year, especially as AP wants his carries. Him being gone means the offense opens up and diversifies.
AP is terrible at blitz pickup. You're right, this may be a positive for them.
The thing that I have noticed with AP is that he is much better running out of the i formation. If you noticed, the Vikes came out in that formation on their first second half drive & moved the ball on the ground, which set up play-action to Diggs long. As far as Lacy, many don't want to hear it but he has put back on all the weight that he lost. He can no longer cut back & leaves loads of yards on the field.
++
We were the first team to score at the Tool Shed in a regular season game.
Special teams played pretty well (blocked punt)
Beat up defense held them to 17 points. Got to Bradford several times. Kept AP in check
Bradford got rag-dolled a few times and he was stumbling around after those plays.
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Receivers got no separation in the first half
Arod hung onto the ball way too long
Uncreative offensive game plan
Stalled drives = lost field position battle
Bad call to go on 4th and 1 in a close, low scoring game
As usual, penalties at the worst possible times.
BAD ball security.
I was at the game and got to sit in a suite thanks to one of my vendors:
- It was REALLY hot in there. Close to unbearable. Maybe because those giant doors were open and it screwed up the AC? You think the engineers would have figured that out in a billon dollar stadium.
- It was loud, but not much more than the Dumpy Dome.
- During breaks, a local KFAN guy Greg Coleman was doing sideline interviews with ex Viking "greats" like Fran Tarkenton and Crybaby Chris. They said some pretty aggressive things about the Packers and it was on the big screens. You think that might have fired the Packers up, right?
- The Tool Shed has that "new car smell", but the coucourses were kind of narrow and dark. Strange for a new stadium. Probably because the footprint is too small and something had to give. The suites were nice, but no better than Target Field. All in all, I'd give the stadium a 6.5 out of 10.
- I work downtown but didn't realize they tore down a bunch of buildings and made a park that runs in front of the stadium. It was nice. They had games for kids set up and an area with a video board where they were showing other games.
- They're trying to create this "new tradition" with the SKOL clap thing. They had this very confusing video with the Icelandic Soccer team (WTF??) before the game to "teach" people how to do it. Meh. People were loving it last night, but it will just piss people off when the Vikings are getting pounded.
- That said, they were still blowing that stupid horn after every big play (eye roll).
- They were showing the new Vikings training complex in Egan, MN. Looks nice. The development will have meeting areas, hotels, restaurants and homes.
A lot FEWER Packer fans than a normal game in Minny. Vikes fans really held onto their tickets for this one.
Considering the attacks in St. Cloud on Saturday, I'm just glad that nothing bad happened during or after the game.
Nelson was open, Cobb was open, Adams was open, Cook was open. R.Rodgers was open. Abby and Davis were open on their 6 and 5 (respectively) plays.
Rodgers was off, again... or is it still?
I think Davante's Inferno needs to be demoted. Work on the Jugs machine for a few games.
Enough with the stretch plays. Have they ever been successful at them?
We don't need to go for the big play on every 3rd and short. Back to he basics. Rodgers is not looking good.
Lastly, I don't like Cobb in the backfield either.
I like Cobb in backfield if it is to get him isolated in pass route vs. LBer, but not running so much between the tackles.
Pakrz posted:One thing I find very puzzling is why Arod keeps throwing the ball to Adams. All the receivers talk about having to earn Arod's trust, etc. I wouldn't trust Adams to catch a nerf football in my backyard. Why Arod does is beyond me.
Probably because the opposing defensive coordinator's set up their defenses to make Adams beat them. The Packer offense is designed to go to the most favorable matchup and, when it was going well, used a lot of quick read plays. In 2010-2011, they lined up with a bunch of very good to outstanding receivers that were to some degree interchangeable: Jennings, Nelson, Jones, and Driver (Cobb 2011) and paired them with Finley. Now they run out a recovering Nelson with Cobb as the second option and pair them with Adams. Instead of Jones or Cobb on the nickel or dime CB, they get Adams and nobody they trust on the nickel and dime CB.
If the defense is designed to take away Cobb and Nelson, then the correct read is to go to Adams. When he runs a poor route, has poor chemistry with Rodgers, or is smothered by the DB, they either get a poor play or go into playground mode.
You can criticize the defense but they picked their poison and Bradford played well. They gave up 17 points so really not a bad game. Outside of Randall, not much to pick apart.
Offense? Where do I start:
-Rodgers: He looks awful. I won't be watching the all-22 so it'll be interesting to see how poor the WRs played. He must have thrown the ball away half a dozen times. Something is not working and they need to get it figured out.
-WRs: Adams needs to be benched. Don't know what else to say about him right now. But why do Cobb, Cook, Nelson and Rodgers have such a hard time getting open? Has to be fixed b/c this offense is painful to watch.
-RBs: I think Lacy was fine. Yeah you want more but he ran hard and got more than what was there.
-OL: I thought they were fine too. Vikings have a damn good front 7 so Rodgers was never gong to have 5-6 seconds back there. Did Rodgers and MM not know that?
MM: Pathetic showing for a second week. I don't know what the deal is but I think MM and Rodgers are the weak links of the offense. Will it get fixed? We have a full season of poor offense now, so it's not guaranteed. Really hope it gets fixed b/c it's just painful to watch. Nothing good happens on offense anymore.
The offensive scheme has its own issues but right now Rodgers is making it look worse than it is. Willing to bet the All-22 tape will reveal a lot of open receivers that Rodgers either didn't see, badly overthrew, or went to a different/wrong read on the play.
MichiganPacker posted:Pakrz posted:One thing I find very puzzling is why Arod keeps throwing the ball to Adams. All the receivers talk about having to earn Arod's trust, etc. I wouldn't trust Adams to catch a nerf football in my backyard. Why Arod does is beyond me.
Probably because the opposing defensive coordinator's set up their defenses to make Adams beat them. The Packer offense is designed to go to the most favorable matchup and, when it was going well, used a lot of quick read plays. In 2010-2011, they lined up with a bunch of very good to outstanding receivers that were to some degree interchangeable: Jennings, Nelson, Jones, and Driver (Cobb 2011) and paired them with Finley. Now they run out a recovering Nelson with Cobb as the second option and pair them with Adams. Instead of Jones or Cobb on the nickel or dime CB, they get Adams and nobody they trust on the nickel and dime CB.
If the defense is designed to take away Cobb and Nelson, then the correct read is to go to Adams. When he runs a poor route, has poor chemistry with Rodgers, or is smothered by the DB, they either get a poor play or go into playground mode.
In addition, teams in the league have adjusted by putting more emphasis on developing DBs. It just seems to me that teams 3rd to 4th CBs are much better than they were a couple of years ago.
50k Club posted:++++
The sky is not falling. There is a lot to build on from this and the JAX game. MM's teams have had slow starts, last year being an exception. I've been really impressed with the DL and LBs. Generally, the OL has been pretty good. Cook is a great target and I'll bet he gets more involved as the season progresses.
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I'd agree if this wasn't going into it's 2nd year. You can only build on so much failure, then it's just plain failure.
It's almost tedious talking about this considering the talent levels here. Maybe the Walsh principle is in play here.
Good point on why we have seven WRs on the roster if we're going to use only three of them. I'm betting Abby can catch a ball a whole lot better than can Adams. I'm flashing back to some of the drills we saw in TC and AR remarking on how good Abby is... And Monty was pretty darn good last year before the injury, too.
Diggs and Rudolf didn't exactly have separation on their TD receptions. Just caught balls that were....catchable.
Three AR passes stand out last night.
3rd possession. 2nd and 7. Adams beat Waynes clean up the sideline. Pass was not only yards over his head. It landed well out of bounds. Just a crazy bad throw.
1st and 10 GB 49. Jordy was WIDE open over the middle. Pass was 5 yards over Jordys head. That throw really stands out for some reason.
3rd and 2 Minny 14. Jordy runs a nice route and has separation. Again AR floats a ball that Jordy can't even make a play on. A better pass there and Jordy either squeezes it for 7 or Jordy draws a flag for illegal contact. Pass was so bad there was no reason to call anything but incomplete.
Another play that was a bit of a head scratcher. On the long PI that Adams drew after Ty's punt block. Adams beat his man, then slowed up which drew the foul, then had to dive at a weird angle to try and make a tough catch. Why pull up then dive? Don't you just keep striding and make a fairly easy catch? Did he not pick up the ball well?
Just a brutal game to watch. No idea what AR is battling. I don't think it's Mike. It might be the offensive plan in general. I think he's battling himself more than anything else.
I miss seeing Rodgers under center, taking a three-step drop and firing the ball to a just-breaking receiver (Jennings, Jordy, Driver, whomever) and watching them eat up yards.
I think they could still do that a lot with Jordy, Cobb, Cook and Abbrederis. Rodgers and DeValued maybe aren't quick enough to do that, but why not have the guys who can do so?
It's been noticed time and again the Packers route tree is too predictable.
OK, I was unable to watch the game, but I have been able to read some of the commentary here.
Is the following a reasonable high level summary?
If Rodgers plays like he USED to play, the offense would have done pretty good and the Packers would have probably won fairly handily. How many passes did he throw that were uncatchable or barely catchable?
Now, if the above is true, it seems a second concern is receiver separation. Jordy Nelson is a year older and following an injury. Is the receiving unit, as a whole, not all that good at getting separation?
One final thought. Why are the Patriots so successful and is there anything the Packers can learn from them?
I thought this thread would start "We lost but .....". Anyway ...........
+++++ We have problems and lost the game.
-------- I just did an internet search and I don't think the technology to raise Lombardi from the dead exists yet.
phaedrus posted:One final thought. Why are the Patriots so successful and is there anything the Packers can learn from them?
There was an article about the way GB & the Patriots build their teams maybe a month ago - but not sure where. The biggest difference is that they are loaded with veterans and some youth. GB is loaded with youth. Maybe that accounts for it.
Can't say they win even if Rodgers played better based on 4 fumbles on offense. 3 by Rodgers. GB recovered 3 of those 4 fumbles (Cobb stole one back)
If anything Minny could have taken last night fairly easily.
Rodgers simply played a bad football game last night on many levels.