Pettine is GONE, who would be your choice?

@Grave Digger posted:

It’s becoming obvious that Todd Bowles wasn’t the problem with the NYJ even though he got scapegoated. LaFleur should have struck a deal with him to come to GB as a package deal. Love to have him running our defense, easily the most underrated coordinator/coach of the last decade.

How much is scheme and how much is personnel?

Poutine isnt the one missing tackles consistently.

Not saying he is free of blame, but he can only coach with the players he is given...and you will only win so many defensive battles with Montravious Adams, Lowry and Lancaster.

Not sure who the answer is...you can find an old guy that looks good on paper and is a shit show (Mike Nolan in Dallas). But, I believe change is necessary. Soon.

I keep going back to what I’ve said before. And that is that ABM is not Matt LaFleur’s guy. He inherited him as a rookie HC with little on his resume.

That has since changed. And if MLF doesn’t see vast improvement and see it quickly, he has every right to fire Pettine at the end of the season. And guys like Gute and Mark Murphy can just keep their yappers shut and let LaFleur move on and find the DC HE wants.

Pettine needs to go and honestly Gute should go as well

Fucking Rashaun Gary at 12.  Savage R1.  Josh Jackson R2.  Buh bye

They will have an impossible time getting a highly rated GM as long as the team is structured the way it. Hold on to your asses folks but I feel as though we’re slowly moving back to the 70s and 80s

Lack of talent.

Watching Bears right now .... they have SIGNIFICANTLY more defensive talent than we do.

Nothing will happen with short week.  Now get rolled again in Thursday maybe just maybe.  But yeah I don’t know who’s out there.  Internally the DB coach Grey? Has been a coordinator IIRC

Grey would be the only guy I can see in the short term- I think if sf steam rolls them it is time.

from Packers.com, ref Jerry Gray:

• As Buffalo's defensive coordinator, helped the Bills rank No. 2 in the league in overall defense in back-to-back seasons (2003-04).

Jerry Montgomery and Mike Smith both served as c-DCs at their respective colleges.

You’ve got two choices for a new DC...either an unproven guy on his way up or an old retread. Sometimes retreads work out, sometimes they don’t.

You could bring Buddy Ryan back from the grave but if he has to work with Lancaster and Lowry he’s only going to be so successful.

I don’t get the  Savage drop off...before he got hurt as a rookie he looked outstanding.

All I know is this...when you can get pressure with your DL, your LB and DB look like all pros. We have not gotten consistent pressure with the front 4 probably since 2010 era.

He has not & is not inspiring these players to play well or with any urgency. They all look lackadaisical. That's coaching. While I don't think some of these defenders are very good, we've seen less talented defenses play better.

I vote for promoting Jerry Gray. I believe that would make the defensive players stand up & take notice.

This defense.....while certainly not great....is NOT as bad as they showed today. I mean it wasn't until Amos made a play DEEP in the 4th quarter before they had some intensity.

THAT is coaching. 100% & I've seen enough.

Get rid of PettineMyKitty hire GrayStorm!

They’re so terrified of the deep ball that they are getting bent over backwards. Talent issue is putting 8 in the box and still getting beat. Scheme issue is never putting 8 in the box and forcing the offense to adjust. Without rewatching the game, my impression is Pettine didnt do anything with personnel to contain a Cook. I saw a lot of 6 and 7 man boxes, probably because they’re terrified Jefferson or Thielen would get behind a single high safety.

First & Foremost in this league.....You absolutely, positively, MUST STOP THE RUN!!

I'll take my chances with Kirk Garrapolo chucking up a duck vs. single-high. The Packs defense isn't playing against Rodgers FFS.

Fire PettineMyKitty hire GrayStorm!

My brother-in-law law is coach for a division 3 school and he was just going nuts about how many guys we committed in the box.  Cousin through 14 passes all game. With the wind my goodness what a mistake it was not to force that issue.  Heck even Aaron had a couple flutter balls.

@Grave Digger posted:

Without rewatching the game, my impression is Pettine didnt do anything with personnel to contain a Cook.

If that is really true, it's a pathetic job of coaching.  You had a weather situation going on today (high winds) that really prevented both teams from really airing it out deep with much of any success at all.  The whole game plan should have been to force Cousins try to throw his soft lobs, because they were going to get blown by the wind incomplete.  The Pack was just so poor at containing Cook on screens or off tackle runs that Cousins really didn't have to make many plays at all today.

Unless you don’t trust your Safeties because Thielen/Jefferson/Etc could do some damage if you sell out hard enough and don’t get home. Ideally Savage is Nick Collins, Amos is a better version of Charlie Peprah, and your corners can man up all day. You play Cover 2, let your front 7 viciously attack regardless of situation. If you don’t have faith your DBs can handle that then you’re forced to go into Quarters, keep everything in front of you and manage the bleeding. That’s where we’re at. Quarters is so popular in the NFL right now as a response to the golden age of passing we’ve been in since rule changes favor offense. Were not going to stop high powered offenses, so we’re going to slow them down. Everything is kept front of you to slow the bleeding and hope you get a stop. It’s not a Pettine thing IMO, it’s a lack of willingness to miss big on play calling and it’s a lack of available Nick Collins’/Earl Thomas’/insert rangy ballhawk Safety. I’d love to see Pettine go for broke on play calls and either get burned or break Cook’s body, 6 points or 42 points, but I understand the idea that the analytics favor controlled bleeding. That’s the idea at least I think, obviously analytics don’t favor giving up 7 ypc or whatever we did.

KC doesn't care anyway because... offense.

It's criminal how much talent Mahomes is surrounded by compared to what AR has. 

Someone said we were slowly heading back to the 1970's and 80's.  I don't know about that but replace AR with Lynn Dickey and you have a comparable offense to that era.

Ehhhh.....Davante Adams is really really good, but he ain't James Lofton good & Funyun is fun but he ain't no Paul Coffman.

Yeah....disagree.

This defense better play the run a whole helluva lot better on Thursday Night.

Second year of the Smith Brothers so far has been a bit of a disappointment.

I'd like to know the reasoning behind changing the roles of the Smiths this year.
It's not a fundamental change like going from a 3-4 to a 4-3, but even a blind man can see how it's affected them both, and NOT in a good way.

I don't know that it would make a difference for the rush defense, but it couldn't be that much worse. What they are doing so far sure as hell ain't working.

Football is a simple game at its core.  You run the ball to run the clock and STOP the run to make the other team one dimensional.   Even though the NFL is more of a passing league you still have to stop the run. 

Where I struggle is if it is lack of talent on defense or is it the scheme?  Adams, Lancaster, and Lowry is a lack of talent and its hard to scheme with that level of talent.  One other concern I have this season is Preston Smith has disappeared.  This allows offenses to concentrate on Z Smith. 

I was a staunch defender of ABM but I am not so much anymore.  Until I see a change in the defense in big spots I am now on board with a change.

I told you all the defense would suffer without Fackrell. Key to everything.

https://twitter.com/TundraVisi...019929243783168?s=20

All those picks but 2019 were low in the order.  It doesn't excuse the issue but it surely raises the level of difficulty.

@Timmy! posted:

I'd like to know the reasoning behind changing the roles of the Smiths this year.
It's not a fundamental change like going from a 3-4 to a 4-3, but even a blind man can see how it's affected them both, and NOT in a good way.

I don't know that it would make a difference for the rush defense, but it couldn't be that much worse. What they are doing so far sure as hell ain't working.

It might be that they know that they aren't going to beat the good teams in the playoffs without improving the run defense. It's the same thing they did when CM3 was still close to his prime. Their personnel was so poor at ILB that they moved CM3 to the middle. CM3 graded out as an A level OLB/edge rusher, but was a B-/C+ as an ILB. It was better than lining up D- guys at ILB, but it turned a Pro-Bowl level player at one position into a slightly above average guy at another position.

In other words, they've changed  P. Smith's role because the alternatives are so bad (or inexperienced) that they feel they have no choice. Kamal Martin is the chance they have to improve. He's a guy that actually could make a difference after he gets more playing time. Khrys Barnes is a nice story and a great special teams guy, but his lack of size and speed makes him unplayable against power running teams.

@Boris posted:

Ehhhh.....Davante Adams is really really good, but he ain't James Lofton good & Funyun is fun but he ain't no Paul Coffman.

Yeah....disagree.

This defense better play the run a whole helluva lot better on Thursday Night.

Sure but Jones/Williams >> Ellis/xxx.  But yeah, peak 80's Dickey offense may have been better than what we have (minus AR).

@DH13 posted:

All those picks but 2019 were low in the order.  It doesn't excuse the issue but it surely raises the level of difficulty.

You usually get the difference makers with picks in the first 3 rounds. Here's what they've gotten in the first 3 rounds of the last 5 drafts.

Great picks: Jenkins, Kenny Clark, and Jaire Alexander

Their other picks (in roughly descending order of quality so far): Savage, King, Sternberger, Gary, Fackrell, Josh Jackson, Burks, M. Adams, Josh Jones, and Spriggs. Plus 3 guys from this draft class that were drafted to play next year at the earliest (Love, Dillon, and DeGuara).

3 Pro-Bowl level guys out of 16 picks isn't bad. That's not the problem. The problem is that of the other 13 guys, only two have performed at a level that you gives you at least some minimal optimism (Savage and King). Two others were serviceable (Gary and Fackrell- and that's not good enough for a 12th overall pick like Gary). The other 5 plus the three picks this year have provided almost nothing.

The Packers are probably a playoff team because of roughly 6 players. They have a HOF QB, one of the best WRs in the league, a top 10 RB, a borderline HOF Left tackle, a shutdown CB, and a very good edge rusher (Z. Smith).

That last paragraph sums it up. 

The big investment in the Smiths was clearly an indicator of Pettine's strategy to stop the pass #1, which he has commented on in the past.  The problem is with today's latest crop of top runners, you still need to be able to stop the run.  Neither Smith is much good at that.  It's usually the price you pay for good pass rushers.  They DO have KC but they desperately need another hog next to him.  Even if you get that, you still have the Smiths not setting the edge (see SF).  So I don't know what the answer is.  Other than complaining.

First segment, Wood really opens up on the D being bad. Can't say he's rong...

@Grave Digger posted:

They’re so terrified of the deep ball that they are getting bent over backwards. Talent issue is putting 8 in the box and still getting beat. Scheme issue is never putting 8 in the box and forcing the offense to adjust. Without rewatching the game, my impression is Pettine didnt do anything with personnel to contain a Cook. I saw a lot of 6 and 7 man boxes, probably because they’re terrified Jefferson or Thielen would get behind a single high safety.

More heavy boxes than I realized. So it’s a talent and a scheme issue. Not a big revelation there. Failure across the board from players losing 1on1’s and coach being out schemed. Just for reference though, Gary Kubiak is their OC who is a disciple of Mike Shannahan Zone Run Scheme...just like Kyle Shannahan. Sounds like Pettine’s system has an issue with defending zone schemes.

#Packers Run Defense vs MIN

8+ Defenders in Box
🔹19 carries, 89yds

Less Than 8 Defenders
🔹15 carries, 84yds

It's not like Pettine sat back in 2-deep all game. Often rolled extra hat into the box to stop run - but credit Vikings for creating lanes/creases & Cook hitting them

— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) November 2, 2020

@Chongo posted:

First segment, Wood really opens up on the D being bad. Can't say he's rong...

You know it is getting FINALLY getting hot for Pettine when the local Packer beat guys (not just Wood) who take their collective cue from inside 1265 have been given the green light to be this critical of the D.

I don't think I've even heard any of the usual "it's OK, we'll still win the NFC North" rhetoric being spewed by the usual sources.

Pettine looks to be the sacrificial lamb (no objection here) while Gutey buys time for his picks to hit.

Thursday should be interesting.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

The Packers are probably a playoff team because of roughly 6 players.

I think you could say this about all the good teams in the NFL.

Steelers / Chiefs / Titans / Saints

How about Seattle? They're a playoff team because of ONE player.

@Boris posted:

How about Seattle? They're a playoff team because of ONE player.

Crazy how drafting a stud WR in the 2nd round can turn an offense from good to explosive huh?

https://packerswire.usatoday.c...ampaign=pos2headline

@YATittle posted:

https://packerswire.usatoday.c...ampaign=pos2headline

Let's say though, Poutine goes out, and the defense plays the game of their life, and shut down (or at least slow down enough to win) against a depleted Whiner's offense...does it save him?

We are seeing the problem with the "zero accountability silo," here set up by WMM...He is basically Jerruh Jones...he wants people to think he's important, so he's set up this disastrous leadership model that lets him stick his finger into coaching personnel decisions...although he probably should have done that a lot sooner with McVince. WMM strikes me as someone who would rather be right about something than actually win balls games.

His obsession with being a real estate developer and this Titletown District told me all I needed to know about him as a "football man."

I'm willing to give Murphy some slack because he gave us MLF.

Strike 1 was not allowing MLF to hire his special teams guy. 

If he doesn't allow MLF to move on from Pettine, then we move directly to strike 3.

@Boris posted:

I think you could say this about all the good teams in the NFL.

Steelers / Chiefs / Titans / Saints

How about Seattle? They're a playoff team because of ONE player.

Yeah the silver lining is that the NFC appears pretty weak overall. Tampa thumped us, but they’ve fucked around in other games and reek of a good team that will miss the playoffs. Same for Chicago. Seattle is good obviously, but their defense is schizo...I’ve seen them look worse than GBs. So we shouldn’t pretend a mediocre defense will prevent us from getting to a SB...once we get there things are different.

@Timpranillo posted:

Crazy how drafting a stud WR in the 2nd round can turn an offense from good to explosive huh?

Packers offense is already explosive with all of their preferred starters on the field. (Missing Bakhtiari, A Jones & Lazard) - we saw it in the first 4 games. Pretty regularly.

But yeah, I would like another "kick ass offensive weapon" at WR which explains Gutey trying to pry Will Fuller away from Houston.

Seattle minus Wilson is probably a 6 win team.