Dom was like MM in the way that both needed top talent to pull off their championship teams. I don't think Gute has provided the same level of talent across the board that TT did in that SB45 era. TT had the benefit of a couple down years' draft position but Gute had 2019 too.
@Goalline posted:I just want MLF to bring his guy in. Otherwise, I think there is a lot of truth in your post. Philosophically though, I think MLF and Pettine are philosophically opposed to each other and it limits MLF.
Every week that goes by, I get more on the "Pettine needs to go bandwagon". The Colts made his schemes look pretty silly this week. The Preston Smith and Kirksey isolations really made him and his schemes look bad.
It's funny you watch Jim Leonhard on Saturdays, then Pettine on Sundays, they both come from the same coaching tree, but Leonhard seems fearless as a coordinator and Pettine seems more and more like he coaches scared.
Here are PFF grades (click on player to see his current grade) . Lowry, P, Smith, Kirksey, & Savage's scores are bad https://www.pff.com/nfl/teams/...ay-packers/12/roster
@MichiganPacker2 posted:There are 3 Pro Bowl-level guys on this defense: Alexander might be the top corner in the league, Clark is top 5, and Z. Smith is close. Savage and P. Smith are at least decent players. Amos is solid. When Kevin King plays like yesterday, he's at least as good as the average #2CB on any team. 3 great and 4 at least average players out of 11 isn't bad. There is talent on this defense. The question is whether the weak spots are so bad that they can't overcome them (which really means the 2 other DL positions and 2 ILBs). I wish they'd have done something this off-season to try to improve instead of stocking the offensive skill positions for 2023 with their top picks, but there is no reason this defense can't be at least average.
THIS
dump Pettine!!!
In the end it will still be Pettine's responsibility but let's look at individual players more closely:
Clark appears still hurt to me. I know that he gets doubled a lot, but so do Donald, Hicks, Cox, etc. and they are still are very disruptive. Right now he is not playing like a top 5 guy
Z. Smith - same for him, playing well, but not at elite level that he did last season
P.Smith - not even playing at an average level. I would take Frackell over him right now.
Lowry - would rather see Keke, Adams, & Gunn get his snaps
Kirksey- not what we thought we were getting ... Martin has played better than him
Savage- he shows flashes but does not seem to trust his instincts. Still seems to be thinking too much
LaFleur hinted to this after the Vikes? game , something to the effect "we have some great players on defense, they just have to start playing like it" . Ultimately it will be Pettine's responsibility, but whatever the scheme, you still have to win your matchup and right now the defense is just losing too many of these on a consistent basis.
Same question applies to Pettine that was used with Capers: is the DC getting the most out of the talent that he does have? Comments from MLF after the Colt loss suggest Mike's seat is (rightfully) getting warm.
Capers had an outstanding resume', many years of experience, and the results showed.
Until they didn't.
The problem I had was once he flamed out, MM wouldn't pull the trigger.
Because he wouldn't, the defense became so stagnated, it still stinks to this day.
Pettine had about 10 years less experience, was much less successful as a HC, and his results are somewhat dubious.
I have no idea why the defense 'changed' from last year; if it was his scheme or if he is following orders, but either way, it's been a noticeable regression.
From Pettine's Wikipedia:
... Pettine has been revolutionary with his defensive scheme that allows every running back to play at a Hall of Fame level while at the same time not able to lock down the passing game despite having one of the best corners in the game. The Packers signed Pettine to a 5-year extension in January 2019 and want to announce it after a positive defensive performance. They are still waiting today.
My choice would be someone who hasn't been demoted from a HC position to DC. Find someone young and hungry instead of a washed up former head coach.
@FLPACKER posted:In the end it will still be Pettine's responsibility but let's look at individual players more closely:
Clark appears still hurt to me. I know that he gets doubled a lot, but so do Donald, Hicks, Cox, etc. and they are still are very disruptive. Right now he is not playing like a top 5 guy
Z. Smith - same for him, playing well, but not at elite level that he did last season
P.Smith - not even playing at an average level. I would take Frackell over him right now.
Lowry - would rather see Keke, Adams, & Gunn get his snaps
Kirksey- not what we thought we were getting ... Martin has played better than him
Savage- he shows flashes but does not seem to trust his instincts. Still seems to be thinking too much
LaFleur hinted to this after the Vikes? game , something to the effect "we have some great players on defense, they just have to start playing like it" . Ultimately it will be Pettine's responsibility, but whatever the scheme, you still have to win your matchup and right now the defense is just losing too many of these on a consistent basis.
Clark and the Smith's could be due to the scheme... maybe they don't feel it? Overall it looks like the D is looking to defend the big plays too much. To the point the opposing Os get smaller gains, get momentum, and than it is hard to reverse that. Quicksand.
I've said before, Adams and Gary over Lowry and Lancaster. I know they are not 1:1 position matches, but get your best players on the field and maximize their skills/abilities to put them in the best situation to succeed.
Martin & Barnes are their best 2 ILB, when healthy.
Need more Savage and Greene attacking the LOS, especially on run downs. Gotta trust Alexander, King, & Sullivan can hold their own in 1-v-1, 2-v-2, slot coverage.
I heard a 2nd separate radio report this AM about Preston Smith being "overweight" and this is also part of his issue.
If he came into camp out of shape, is still out of shape, that's all on him. Ala Eddie "china food" Lacy.
Maybe that also explains why they changed his role this year as well? Z smith isn't sounding off about his bro this year like he was in 2019. Maybe he's pissed Preston packed on pounds...
Would rather get beat being aggressive than passive. Aggressive - you tried to do something, tried to beat the man across from you. Passive, you waited for something to happen, you let your opponent dictate your actions.
Pettine be like: "He looks fat and slow. Put him in coverage."
That’s hilarious about his Wikipedia. Right now I think we’re seeing a combination of Pettine playing overly conservative defense to protect the lead and players just not being inspired by that. Aaron Rodgers is going to score a lot and generally pretty quick, so I think the wisdom could be that we’re going to make teams work harder and longer to score...if AR can score 35 points in 20 minutes of game time we’re going to force the offense to spend 40 minutes scoring 34 points. That’s not very motivating for players.
The Wikipedia post while being hilarious makes a valid point.
5 year deal in 2019 -- money might be the issue here....results be damned.
The last 25 posts in this thread are pretty much spot on.
No other words required.... except one....
Scathing
Kind of funny that Goalline's post is the 26th post above Boris.
Boris is a funny guy, but I don't think humor was his intent in this instance. Deep seeded revenge is the more likely motive.
I think it is over simplification to just say; "Pettine can't coach"...he was a DC 5 years before here & all five years his defense was in the top 10 (4 with Jets , 1 with Bills). Now perhaps we don't have the players to run his scheme so he should adjust, or it was really Rex Ryan running the Jets defense or Doug Marone with Bills, I don't know, but the guy has had proven success, so let's be careful what we wish for.
@FLPACKER posted:I think it is over simplification to just say; "Pettine can't coach"...he was a DC 5 years before here & all five years his defense was in the top 10 (4 with Jets , 1 with Bills). Now perhaps we don't have the players to run his scheme so he should adjust, or it was really Rex Ryan running the Jets defense or Doug Marone with Bills, I don't know, but the guy has had proven success, so let's be careful what we wish for.
OR, his scheme is as STALE as MM's offense was when he was here and it doesn't work anymore.
Tell me again how MLF couldn't get the Special Teams coach he wanted because we couldn't afford him yet somehow Pettine gets a FIVE YEAR DEAL????
@H5 posted:Boris is a funny guy, but I don't think humor was his intent in this instance. Deep seeded revenge is the more likely motive.
We all know why he hates me. My resemblance to Greg Norman, of course. 
Jim Leonhard? He's got the cred of playing 10 years in the NFL. And his Wisconsin defenses have been as good as they've ever been. Re-treading old NFL D-coordinators just doesn't seem to be successful.
Future HoF'r Leroy Butler (I Hope) discuss the problem with the Dime package w/Tom Silverstein
New from JSOnline and PackersNews: X's and O's with LeRoy Butler, 11.24.20: The problem with the dime package https://t.co/ho8G8WEfXF #Packers
— Tom Silverstein (@TomSilverstein) November 25, 2020
Little surprise. Preston has fallen off significantly. Gary is much improved. Z's numbers are likely reflective of Clark's injury ealrier in the season along with Preston's decline in performance
A look at the Packers’ edge rushers in the ESPN Pass Rush Win Rates through 10 games this season compared to last season: pic.twitter.com/PRuZGgSnwF
— Rob Demovsky (@RobDemovsky) November 25, 2020
@Boris posted:Future HoF'r Leroy Butler (I Hope) discuss the problem with the Dime package w/Tom Silverstein
New from JSOnline and PackersNews: X's and O's with LeRoy Butler, 11.24.20: The problem with the dime package https://t.co/ho8G8WEfXF #Packers
— Tom Silverstein (@TomSilverstein) November 25, 2020
The opening drive in the 3rd Q defending the Colts was close to criminal. Play after play the Colts were RTFB and Pettine stayed in dime nearly the whole damn drive. Only after getting into the Red Zone did he switch and bring in LB help.
Ridiculous. Again, that's not talent. That's inexcusable scheme/play calling on D.
Yeah, and that brilliant dime defense included the long touchdown pass. What a defensive masterpiece.
@packerboi posted:The opening drive in the 3rd Q defending the Colts was close to criminal. Play after play the Colts were RTFB and Pettine stayed in dime nearly the whole damn drive. Only after getting into the Red Zone did he switch and bring in LB help.
Ridiculous. Again, that's not talent. That's inexcusable scheme/play calling on D.
THIS!
@grignon posted:Jim Leonhard? He's got the cred of playing 10 years in the NFL. And his Wisconsin defenses have been as good as they've ever been. Re-treading old NFL D-coordinators just doesn't seem to be successful.
Opposing teams will just watch every Ohio St. game every year. 
@Grave Digger posted:Opposing teams will just watch every Ohio St. game every year.
Most aren't as good as the Buckyes.
Most NFL teams probably don’t pay as well as OSU either.
That is a stunning stat. Guessing a lot of that zone defense played with King/Jaire out, so maybe not as impressive. Definitely need to draft a CB if letting King walk.
Considering his injury history I think you can get King for a reasonable contract. The question is if that contract is even worth it.
TT/MM/The Wizard all got a break down the stretch because they won a Super Bowl.
I like Mayo, outside of that the FO/Defense/ST just stinks of indecision and mediocrity right out of the gate. I'm putting the lion share of fail on FO.
@Henry posted:Considering his injury history I think you can get King for a reasonable contract. The question is if that contract is even worth it.
TT/MM/The Wizard all got a break down the stretch because they won a Super Bowl.
I like Mayo, outside of that the FO/Defense/ST just stinks of indecision and mediocrity right out of the gate. I'm putting the lion share of fail on FO.
I sadly agree. I like MLF but have zero confidence in Gute and Murphy. I think MLF will upgrade our d coordinator and special teams coaches after another disappointing loss in the playoffs.
@Koopla Krash posted:That is a stunning stat. Guessing a lot of that zone defense played with King/Jaire out, so maybe not as impressive. Definitely need to draft a CB if letting King walk.
Personnel plays a part I think but truly I think it’s about which QBs they’ve played. I think they’ve challenged bad or inexperienced QBs with Cover 2 Man and tried to control the bleeding against good QBs with Cover 2 Zone. I think Pettine is scared of good QBs and doesn’t want to have a points race.