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I’m not sure this didn’t work out better for the Bucks in the long run.   The entire way Bogdanovic and/or his agent played games during this process and jerked around Sacramento and Milwaukee doesn’t leave you with warm and fuzzy feelings in terms of the relationship.  Not to mention them (probably his agent) leaking information that allowed the media to drag the Bucks through the mud and drive up the price.

Two other nuggets that have come to light is the Hawks tried to trade for Holiday and the Bucks tried to trade for Oladipo.  Ultimately the Bucks gave up more to New Orleans but got their guy.  More importantly, they offloaded Bledsoe and Hill salaries which quite frankly aren’t looking so great at the moment.

The key takeaway is both Sacramento and Indiana insisted on DDV being included in either a Bogs trade or a Oladipo trade.   That tells me that several teams are high on DDV so retaining him may have been the right move anyway.  Oladipo wouldn’t have been a good fit IMO and you give up DDV and still may keep Bledsoe and don’t get the key guy in Holiday.

Keeping DDV, and adding Augustin and Forbes to replace Bogs offensively was a really nice recovery.   They also replaced Ersan with a more athletic version in Portis for less money.  Let’s also not forget they kept a great locker room gritty Swiss Army knife guy in Par C and got a sneaky good wing defender in Torrey Craig.  Oh, and they also kept B Lopez.

The only blind spot is not having a true backup  center on the roster but guess what they wouldn’t have had they made any of those other moves.  

If DDV continues to develop offensively like he’s capable of doing then this team could be very, very good.  He’s already a plus defender.  He just needs to get more consistent in other aspects.

Something else to consider - the scuttlebutt is a specific EC team was behind the whole “let’s catch the Bucks tampering” bullshit.  If I had to bet money my guess is it was the Hawks.  Think about it.  They lost out on adding Holiday to Milwaukee.  Then they learn the Bucks are close to adding another key guy they were interested in so they blow the whistle to kill the deal and then they sign him.  

The problem with the Hawks is they were also left to scramble and signed a bunch of guys that (collectively) make no sense on that roster together.   But much like Charlotte, their fan bases are really fickle and they need to sell tickets.  So go crazy Hawks.  Not sure who is going to get the ball and shoot.  Rondo is a terrible fit and will probably drive Trae Young out of there.  But hey!  Celebrate that Bogdanovic move dude!   And Gallanari.  You might score 140 a game but will give up 160 a game.

@Tschmack posted:

Two other nuggets that have come to light is the Hawks tried to trade for Holiday and the Bucks tried to trade for Oladipo.  Ultimately the Bucks gave up more to New Orleans but got their guy.  More importantly, they offloaded Bledsoe and Hill salaries which quite frankly aren’t looking so great at the moment.

The key takeaway is both Sacramento and Indiana insisted on DDV being included in either a Bogs trade or a Oladipo trade.   That tells me that several teams are high on DDV so retaining him may have been the right move anyway.  Oladipo wouldn’t have been a good fit IMO and you give up DDV and still may keep Bledsoe and don’t get the key guy in Holiday.

Keeping DDV, and adding Augustin and Forbes to replace Bogs offensively was a really nice recovery.   They also replaced Ersan with a more athletic version in Portis for less money.  Let’s also not forget they kept a great locker room gritty Swiss Army knife guy in Par C and got a sneaky good wing defender in Torrey Craig.  Oh, and they also kept B Lopez.

If DDV continues to develop offensively like he’s capable of doing then this team could be very, very good.  He’s already a plus defender.  He just needs to get more consistent in other aspects.

Good post. The thing about DDV that's a key to note is that the things he really needs to improve on are things he is very likely to improve on, which are mostly related to improving his strength. He's played one full year in the NBA and his 3 point shooting last year was at ~33.5% in both the regular season and playoffs. That needs to improve to the 37/38% level, but that's doable. In his final year at Villanova he shot 40% from the college 3 point line, so getting physical stronger should only help stretch that college shooting percentage out a couple of extra feet from where he 3 point line was in the NCAA in 2018.

The real thing that I noticed watching the games was that it seemed like at least 1-2 times every half, DDV would get around a guy trying to close out at the 3 point line, drive all the way to the lane, get bumped a little bit in traffic (not enough to draw a foul), and come up just a bit short on the finish. Some more time in the weight room is going to add that extra strength to convert those finishes and maybe even make them "And-1s."   

The other thing I always go back to is how he played in that NCAA title game. Whatever some guys have that gives them confidence in pressure situations, DDV has "it." The guy that personified this trait more than anyone else in Bucks' history is Sam Cassell who seemed better in the clutch than at other times in the game. Ray Allen had it, but that just meant he stayed as good as he was at other times of the game. They both loved being the guy that took the pressure shot. Middleton that going for him as well, but not to the same extreme as Cassell with the irrational confidence and swagger that you need. DDV has a chance to have that. That's what they were really sold on about Bogdanovic, hitting pressure shots. It's the thing that Giannis doesn't have to his game.

I'm glad they didn't get Oladipo. I don't see him as a good fit, and he's a huge risk in terms of how much longer it's going to take for him to get over a bad injury. You know exactly what you are getting with Holiday.

@Tschmack posted:

Something else to consider - the scuttlebutt is a specific EC team was behind the whole “let’s catch the Bucks tampering” bullshit.  If I had to bet money my guess is it was the Hawks.  Think about it.  They lost out on adding Holiday to Milwaukee.  Then they learn the Bucks are close to adding another key guy they were interested in so they blow the whistle to kill the deal and then they sign him.  

The problem with the Hawks is they were also left to scramble and signed a bunch of guys that (collectively) make no sense on that roster together.   But much like Charlotte, their fan bases are really fickle and they need to sell tickets.  So go crazy Hawks.  Not sure who is going to get the ball and shoot.  Rondo is a terrible fit and will probably drive Trae Young out of there.  But hey!  Celebrate that Bogdanovic move dude!   And Gallanari.  You might score 140 a game but will give up 160 a game.

It's almost certainly the Hawks, and this reporting confirms that a lot of teams wanted DDV and the Bucks only reluctantly agreed to move him for Bogdanovic.

The article also has an interesting tidbit about how one of the Bucks' players in the trade had a real estate agent looking at property for him and his girlfriend in California. Since Ilyasova is married with 3 kids and DJ Wilson is not listed as dating anyone right now while there are pictures of DDV with his girlfriend (from his college days in Philly), this was a done deal until the complaint.

https://bleacherreport.com/art...ntetokounmpo-packing

I love this load of BS in the article.

Commissioner Adam Silver has been as stringent on eliminating evidenced tampering as Giannis has been in wanting Milwaukee to improve its roster. 

The best outcome as an FU to the NBA at this point would be for DDV to blossom into a star and make not being able to complete this trade one of the best things that ever happened to the franchise.

Completely agree on DDV. He has that swagger and confidence and seems to want and rise to the occasion.  During the regular season he was really good.  But so was Pat C.  Both guys fell off big time in the playoffs but literally Khris Middleton was the only one that seemed focused.  I really wonder if the combination of the bubble and the BLM/Kenosha situation erased their mojo and intensity.   Fiserv Forum would have been electric in the playoffs and it sure seemed like their heart wasn’t in it come playoff time.  It would be understandable for a number of reasons.

Last edited by Tschmack

Well, we’ll hear all about how the Bucks fucked their season, biggest debacle ever. They upgraded their PG position while keeping their best young wing asset. I like Bogdanovic, but he won’t be as good in Atlanta as he would have been in Milwaukee.

https://clutchpoints.com/bucks...or-oladipo-revealed/

Yeah I see it here now -- catching up after setting up brining the turkey

@Music City posted:

Watching some of Holiday’s highlights, fuck he’s good. Really smart, intuitive, and Giannis finally has someone who can feed him near the basket.

Glad you're coming around. He's really really good & if he was in LA he'd be getting a shitload more press. Haven't you watched him closely before?

It's all good, He's a Buck now

Last edited by Boris

I think there’s some real passive aggressive BS going on with some teams and the national media as it relates to the Bucks and they are following the playbook of NBA front office leadership.  I mean, it’s nothing new.  

Going back to David Stern the way they took the league to the next level was identifying and marketing the star players in the big markets.  Magic, MJ, Larry, Pat Ewing, Hakeem, Dr J.  Later it was Shaq and Kobe and AI (among others).  

Players like Duncan, Malone, Reggie Miller, KG, Payton, never got that kind of exposure because they did not play in the big markets.  

Deep down the powers that be hate teams like Milwaukee.  They hate them even more if they have one of the 3-4 best players in the league.  The fact that he’s a global superstar doesn’t help matters because the league knows you put him in NY or LA and the opportunities are endless to showcase and grow interest in the league which directly drives revenue for the league and the owners.

If any big market team had an offseason like the Bucks they would be praised and celebrated to no end.  Instead, the media wants to pound on them for “screwing up” the Bogdanovic move and push the “Giannis needs to leave” narrative.  I mean, just give the Lakers the title again. After all, Rob Pelinka is a genius for all the moves the Lakers have made.  Forget the fact that LeBron secretly runs that organization along with Klutch Sports.  They pull the strings.   And don’t think for a second these other hired guns aren’t annoyed that Giannis isn’t just stepping in line and going along with the program which is to ditch your small market team and join forces with other star players to basically make it easier to win and also make a lot more money for themselves and their agents in the process.  

I hope Giannis extends and the Bucks break through and win it all.  It would be even better if they defeated the Lakers and gave a big middle finger to the league for all the crap they’ve had to endure.  

Last edited by Tschmack

I’d really enjoy it if Holiday and DDV put up huge career years in the process of winning a title. At least the local media would be forced to focus on the trade that paid huge dividends, and the non-trade that did, likewise.

@MNPackman posted:

Anybody know anything about these players they signed over the last couple of days? Bryn Forbes looks intriguing.........

Forbes is a great shooter, but a really weak defender. He gets abused by guys taking him the basket one on one. Because of that, his weaknesses will be minimized in Bud's drop system. He's 50th all-time in NBA 3 point percentage, so he will definitely spread the floor on offense.

https://www.spurstalk.com/bryn...s-failed-experiment/

Portis is an emotional player who sometimes has let his emotions get the best of him. He was run out of Chicago after punching Mirotic in practice (obviously terrible, but the Bucks would have liked to have someone light a fire under Mirotic during the 2019 playoffs). He's also had some flagrant foul problems. Not to encourage that, but the Bucks have lacked this type of guy and having an enforcer type may be beneficial. Scouts say he has all the tools to be a solid contributor and shoots well from 3 for a big guy. He has sometimes played poorer defense than his physical talents should allow. He's played for crappy teams his whole career and He was also criticized for staying on the perimeter too much on offense. In other words, exactly what he'll be expected to do if he plays with Giannis.

https://theknickswall.com/shou...is-back-next-season/

Torrey Craig is a great effort guy. Outstanding teammate and a guy who'll be diving on the floor a lot. An OK shooter, but he's not going to scare anyone on offense. He's a very good defender.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MkeBu..._from_a_nuggets_fan/

DJ Augustin has been a very good bench player in the NBA for a long time. He's a good 3 point shooter, but is on the small side and has trouble with bigger guards backing him down in the mid-range and post. Again, Bud's defensive system should help.

Augustin is in his 30s and has just a few years left, but all these other players are the type that should look a lot better playing alongside Giannis. They should get more open looks from 3 and their defensive shortcomings will be hidden more playing alongside three elite defenders (Giannis, Holiday, and B. Lopez) and several other plus defenders (Middleton, DDV, and Torrey Craig). They are probably banking on looking good playing on a good team and getting bigger paydays down the road.

What I like particularly about Bobby Portis and Torrey Craig is they are high energy guys that get after it.   Denver really liked Craig but couldn’t retain him.  He’s going to be their primary defender on the wing and give Middleton some relief on D.  Portis is interesting in that he has never played on a decent team but has done pretty well.  Good rebounder.   Above average shooter from 3.  I view him as a more athletic upgraded version of Ersan.  

Augustin and Forbes are there to shoot and make 3s.  Both are very good in that regard.  If they spread the floor like Bud wants them to do they should contribute very well.   Augustin could have a huge year in this system and should get plenty of playing time.

The Bucks may be giving up a little bit defensively but their shooting has improved dramatically.  In the playoffs, outside of Middleton and at times Hill they could not make jumpers.  You leave guys like Augustin and Portis and Forbes alone they will make you pay.  

Holiday is the main addition and he really doesn’t have any weaknesses other than he’s not an elite athlete or passer but still well above average.  Defensively he’s as good as Bledsoe and offensively he’s a significant upgrade. He should have a big year as well.

Last edited by Tschmack
@Tschmack posted:

What I like particularly about Bobby Portis and Torrey Craig is they are high energy guys that get after it.   Denver really liked Craig but couldn’t retain him.  He’s going to be their primary defender on the wing and give Middleton some relief on D.  Portis is interesting in that he has never played on a decent team but has done pretty well.  Good rebounder.   Above average shooter from 3.  I view him as a more athletic upgraded version of Ersan.  

Augustin and Forbes are there to shoot and make 3s.  Both are very good in that regard.  If they spread the floor like Bud wants them to do they should contribute very well.   Augustin could have a huge year in this system and should get plenty of playing time.

The Bucks may be giving up a little bit defensively but their shooting has improved dramatically.  In the playoffs, outside of Middleton and at times Hill they could not make jumpers.  You leave guys like Augustin and Portis and Forbes alone they will make you pay.  

Holiday is the main addition and he really doesn’t have any weaknesses other than he’s not an elite athlete or passer but still well above average.  Defensively he’s as good as Bledsoe and offensively he’s a significant upgrade. He should have a big year as well.

And Holiday has been oustanding in the playoffs. Can you imagine Bledsoe going for 41 and 8 in a close out game?

https://www.nba.com/pelicans/n...31-trail-blazers-123

It’s a great point about the Budenholzer system, and it also helps having 3 all Defensive players plus Middleton to hold up the defensive burden. They have lineup options now with established guys instead of the inconsistent developmental players like Brown or the “can’t play them at all against certain matchups” guys like Ilyasova. Augustine and Forbes will be far more effective as experienced guys who know their role.

Portis has always intrigued me because he has some asshole to him. He’s been in totally dysfunctional programs- the Bulls, Bullets, and Knicks? No one is going to be successful there. But he has skill. With the proper guidance, hunting for a ring, he could surprise.

Last edited by Music City
@Music City posted:

It’s a great point about the Budenholzer system, and it also helps having 3 all Defensive players plus Middleton to hold up the defensive burden. They have lineup options now with established guys instead of the inconsistent developmental players like Brown or the “can’t play them at all against certain matchups” guys like Ilyasova. Augustine and Forbes will be far more effective as experienced guys who know their role.

Portis has always intrigued me because he has some asshole to him. He’s been in totally dysfunctional programs- the Bulls, Bullets, and Knicks? No one is going to be successful there. But he has skill. With the proper guidance, hunting for a ring, he could surprise.

Not just the ring hunting, it's the next contract hunting. He made 15 million last year from the Knicks. He's now on a partial MLE deal.

He's 6'10", 250 pounds and has shot 38% from 3 the last 2 years as a high volume shooter. His advanced stats are very good. His career PER is 16.1 and he had one full season in Chicago where it was 19.7. That is borderline all-star territory (and also Holiday's career high). PER is a very good overall measure of players and his career PER is only 16.1 because of a weak year last year with the Knicks (14.6). But I think a lot of guys get incredibly frustrated playing on the Knicks.

For comparison, Bogdonavic's career PER is 14.2 and he's never been higher than 15.1.

Portis is where he is because he has a reputation for being difficult to coach. If he comes to Milwaukee and buys in, he's a guy that can easily be looking at 4 years and 60 million type money.  That's a great motivator. I think Portis can easily be what they were hoping to get out of Thon Maker (and with the added benefit that Portis is not going to be a guy that shrinks and cowers in a corner when teams get physical with him. He's the type of guy that you think twice about crossing on the court.).

Portis has the chance to be the breakout guy on this team (someone who unexpectedly becomes a major contributor). He's making 3.8 million, so it's not like it's a major risk if he does turn out to be a head case. He averaged 18 and 10 per 36 minutes in his career and shot 46/36/75. If he gives them that, they are in really good shape.

https://www.basketball-referen...ers/p/portibo01.html

Last edited by MichiganPacker2

These NBA writers are really scraping the bottom at this point. John Hollinger tweeted out (pasted in below) that the Raptors structured their Alex Len and Baynes contracts into the MLE so that they could trade a specific group of players for the exact amount to match Giannis' salary to the dollar. It's not a bad move to do that by the Raptors as it's clearly a signal they wanted to get to Giannis without tampering (hence probably leaking some esoteric detail like that to Hollinger), but the whole thing is ridiculous.

Fun fact: The ~600k cap # difference between this and his vet min allows him to be a salary match in a trade for a $27.528M player with Powell, OG, McCaw, and one of Thomas/Davis. Otherwise he'd make too little. If there were some hypothetical player who makes $27.528M, that is

If the Bucks, for some reason, decided to trade Giannis it sure as hell won't be for Len, Baynes, Norman Powell, OG Anunoby, and Terrence Davis. There is no way Giannis goes to the Raptors in a trade (even with the small chance that it happens) without Siakam coming to Milwaukee.

Toronto doesn’t really have any assets worth a damn.  Even if Siakim was part of a deal you’d be looking at multiple 1st round picks and that remaining Toronto roster isn’t as good as what the Bucks are running out this year.  Fuck the Raptors and their bullshit because that’s all it is and fuck Hollinger for writing such a lazy article.

@Music City posted:

If Giannis gets traded, it’s for a next tier star PLUS a lot of draft assets.

And the problem is that any draft assets that come back from a team he might go to are probably going to be late in the 1st round. In other words, virtually worthless. I looked it up a couple of weeks ago, of all the guys in the last 5 years that have made all-star teams there are twice as many 2nd-round picks as guys in the first round from ~16-30. So, it's basically the same chance of getting an all-star player picking in the later half of the first round as it is drafting in the second round.

I'd like to see another announcement, but this is still pretty funny. Giannis bartering with the Bucks beat writer from theathletic.com to lower the subscription price from 1.00 a month to 75 cents a month.

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@tsr86free posted:

Batum to Clippers. Checkmate.

Did any significant free agent sign with any team in the Western conference other than the two LA teams? All of the other contenders got worse.

The Nuggets lost two rotation guys (Grant and Craig and added no one).  The Jazz added no one. The Rockets are imploding. The Warriors are toast after Klay’s injury. The Pelicans traded away Holiday for Bledsoe. The Blazers Added no one. The Mavs did nothing because they are waiting for Giannis. You could argue only the Suns got better and they did it by adding Paul’s contract in a trade and weren’t even a playoff team.

The Wolves got better, I think?   I also like what Phoenix did.  But those in the mix (Portland, Utah, Denver, Dallas) didn’t make any real improvements.  

It’s almost like everyone in the West is deferring to the LA teams which is strange because those teams are close.  With a move here or there I think Portland and Denver in particular could give those teams a run for their money.

@Tschmack posted:

The Wolves got better, I think?   I also like what Phoenix did.  But those in the mix (Portland, Utah, Denver, Dallas) didn’t make any real improvements.  

It’s almost like everyone in the West is deferring to the LA teams which is strange because those teams are close.  With a move here or there I think Portland and Denver in particular could give those teams a run for their money.

I think there are some big moves pending, but a lot of the league is waiting for Giannis' decision before making any moves. It's not just the teams that think they have a shot to get him (Heat, Lakers, Raptors, Celtics, Warriors, and Mavs and to a lesser extent the Knicks). Note that most of these teams are completely delusional.  If Giannis signs the supermax, these teams will be in play for guys like Harden and Westbrook which will set off a whole set of dominoes.

I would think the Sixers are going to make some more moves as the major move which was essentially to go from Al Horford to Dwight Howard (and shed Horford's contract) makes them much worse as Howard makes their floor spacing issues even more serious. Seth Curry is a decent pickup, but I'm not sure he moves the needle.

The Nets might be in play for Harden yet, and the Knicks will probably do something just because they are the Knicks. I could see them adding Westbrook to get fans excited about something (which would be watching him jack up 30 shots a game and average about 35/10/10 to get them to about 25 wins. I'm not sure what the Celtics are doing, but they have a huge trade exemption.