Love him or hate him, Kobe's final game was one for the ages

Meh. How many shots did Kobe take last night? Something like 50. A 60 point night is amazing, but he took 21 3-point attempts?

22 of 50

6 of 21

He should have scored 80.

Lol... He would have if he was 28...

Kobe is a slightly better version of AI and no one talks about him to this extent (greatness) 

If the draft happened all over again I still take Kevin Garnett over Kobe. Had Kobe not played with Shaq I doubt we would be talking about him in this light.  He's very similar to Dwayne Wade in my book. 

By the way this whole retirement tour thing is flat out sickening and makes me hate the Lakers even more.  I don't ever want to hear anyone criticize another team for tanking because the LAL were more concerned with honoring him than winning games.   He stole money from him but hats off to the idots (Buss family) for making it happen. 

Did not see a minute of it but am interested to know if Utah tried to win or if they were enablers?

After all it is the NBA

They were guarding him... They didn't double him. They could have I suppose. Every shot he hit was contested. 

I don't understand the "slightly better than AI" comment... That's insanity. Kobe is the best player of his generation. Duncan is a very close second, but I'll take Kobe if I had to choose. 

Hes an easy guy to dislike, but in sorry- AI comparisons? That's just stupid...

Hungry5 posted:

Meh. How many shots did Kobe take last night? Something like 50. A 60 point night is amazing, but he took 21 3-point attempts?

22 of 50

6 of 21

He should have scored 80.

 

Correct,  thus hardly one for the ages.

How many NBA starters would be allowed to take 50 shots? And if they were they would score at least 60. When Wilt had his 100 point game he took 62 shots, and there were no 3-pointers.

Music City posted:

It's indisputable that MJ is the greatest. But Kobe left us all with one last glimpse of why he probably is 1A.

Go home.  You're drunk.  1A???  

Kobe ain't even the best Laker.  Hell, he isn't even in the top 3 Lakers.  1A.  Good lord.  

Speaking only for myself but I can't comprehend how anybody who has watched the game for a long time could say Kobe is a greater Laker than Earvin Johnson or Jerry West. I'm partial to West because he was the greatest competitor I've seen in the NBA other than Bill Russell but objectively Magic is probably #1. Utterly transformative for that team and the league.

West, Magic, or Magic, West... too close to call IMO.

After that I'd go Kareem. Chamberlain. Mikan. Worthy. Bryant. The order is really irrelevant.

I'd like to hear CalBuc's thoughts on the Black Mamba. 

And who tf gives themselves their own nickname? 

I'd go with Magic and let's not forget Elgin Baylor.

ChilliJon posted:

I'd like to hear CalBuc's thoughts on the Black Mamba. 

And who tf gives themselves their own nickname?

Is Chillijon on your birth certificate?

ChilliJon posted:

I'd like to hear CalBuc's thoughts on the Black Mamba.

Pikes Peak posted:

ChilliJon posted:

I'd like to hear CalBuc's thoughts on the Black Mamba. 

And who tf gives themselves their own nickname?

Is Chillijon on your birth certificate?

Yes. A reflection of being born 5 months premature. It was that or cioppino. Mom and Dad were such rascals. I wasn't allowed to post in the neonatal ward message board due to lack of strength or internet. So I kept all my thoughts bottled up for the right time. 

Goalline had a black mama......so he was kind of close.

Slightly better than AI??  Hell yes.  Check the stats.  Kobe had a slightly better shooting percentage but AI was a better overall scorer and had a lot less talent around him.  Both were high effort guys but me first guys to the extreme.  

CAPackFan95 posted:

Music City posted:

It's indisputable that MJ is the greatest. But Kobe left us all with one last glimpse of why he probably is 1A.

Go home.  You're drunk.  1A???  

Kobe ain't even the best Laker.  Hell, he isn't even in the top 3 Lakers.  1A.  Good lord.  

 

He wasn't the most important player, but he's the best player. Call it the difference of eras, call it whatever you want.

It's not denying Magic's greatness to say that Kobe elevated above it- the man was the principal part of 5 Championships. He's not likeable. And yes the syrupy suckfest that was the "Farewell Tour" was unbearable at times. And yes Kobe is a big fat dink.

He's the only player comparable to Jordan in this modern era of basketball. No one else. Scorer, defender, go-to in the clutch- his career numbers speak for themselves, and his ability to rise in the moment? Only player like Jordan. He did that again last night. What he did last night was unthinkable.

I still wouldn't want him on my team. I prefer more unselfish players. But there's no denying Kobe's greatness...

Please, there is no no one in any team building capacity in the NBA that would not want Kobe on their team.  

He may be a dink but he was a great player.  

Magic made everyone around him better, Kobe did not.

Pikes Peak posted:

Please, there is no no one in any team building capacity in the NBA that would not want Kobe on their team.  

He may be a dink but he was a great player.  

I understand what you're saying- but if I had anyone to pick from my #1 overall would be Hakeem Olajuwon. Over MJ, over everyone. Prob silly, but he completely dominated. Jordan once said he wasn't sure how they would have besten Houston if they ever could have put it together to face the Bulls. He was a monster... Rag dolled the 3 best big men of the era (Shaq, Ewing, Robinson) to win 2 rings. I don't know if the Jordan Bulls beat either of those teams... 

I went back and reread this thread and what I can't get over is the extent that Kareem is underrated. Not just by many TimesFour posters, but by everyone. I think people think of him as the 40 year old guy jogging up the court at the end of his career (when he was still a very good player). Kareem was the best player outside of Jordan I've ever seen. 

I have a hard time with all of the old all-time great Cs. Wilt, Kareem, Dawkins... same with Shaq. I just don't view them as skilled basketball players. The big guys with the true skills, I have great reverence for them. 

I never really saw Kareem at his apex. I was fixated on Magic/Bird/Irving as a little guy, then Olajuwon and Michael as I got older. 

Music City posted:

I have a hard time with all of the old all-time great Cs. Wilt, Kareem, Dawkins... same with Shaq. I just don't view them as skilled basketball players.

MC, to say that Kareem wasn't a skilled basketball player is truly misguided. Lumping him in with brute force piledrivers like late-career Wilt, Shaq or Dawkins is a gross mistake.

I was fortunate enough to see Kareem in Bucks' colors and there hasn't been a truly big center in the league since who approaches his talent level. He could ball-handle and was a great passer. His skyhook was and remains the most effective and unstoppable shot in league history, be it from 2 feet or 20 feet, and it is telling that no other player has been able to replicate that shot.

Olajuwon is sui generis in many ways, a fabulous player. But Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the most skilled offensive center in basketball history. 

I suppose that is true- but I lump him in with the other physical guys because it was his height advantage that really equated to the majority of his dominance. Like Wilt, he was a great athlete AND tall... So in the era he was unchallenged in a lot of ways.

I'll concede he was more skilled that the others of his era, and in some ways it goes without saying vinsidering his accomplishments.

The most skilled big man to me was Olajuwon. He's the greatest defensive player in NBA history. That sets him in elite company to start. But his array of post moves and his footwork were incomparable. And he developed a solid mid range game to compliment his post game. In his second year, he was completely dominant until the went up against Larry Bird and the near triple double he averaged in the 86 finals. Kareem was no match in the conference finals.

The Rockets may have won more titles if that organization would have ever surrounded him with the kind of talent those lakers teams had. 

In terms of defensive ability, Kareem was first or second team NBA All-defense 11 times.

His college teams were 88-2 in his 3 years and won three national titles. They lost one game in his junior year to Elvin Hayes and Houston 71-69 in a game Kareem (Alcindor at that time) played with an eye injury. They came back and blitzed them 101-69 in the Final 4. His senior year, they lost a slow down game to USC. 

6 time NBA MVP and won a Finals MVP at age 38. He was at the all star game 19 times. He was first team NBA at age 39. 

Like Cuqui said, he was a graceful, athletic player. A 7'2" guy that moved like a 6'6" guy. And that sky hook, he could probably come out of the stands as a 69 year old cancer survivor in street clothes and hit a sky hook over most NBA centers right now. Olajuwon had probably the best footwork of any center I've seen (McHale was outstanding at that as well) and was a great defensive player, but Olajuwon could not have handled Kareem's sky hook in his prime. It wouldn't have even been close. 

There are anecdotes that Kareem's sky hook was blocked just a handful of times over 20 years. 

http://forums.lakersground.net...d.php?topic_id=25783 
A question for the oldies on the board....

We all remember how unstoppable Kareem's sky hook was back in the day. Never in the history of the NBA was one single move so impossible to stop. I remember guys like Mark Eaton, Robert Parish, and Bill Laimbeer bodying Kareem for 23 seconds and all he would need was a single second to release the magnificent shot.

Once in a while, someone would actually block it. 

There are highlights of Wilt blocking it when Kareem played for the Bucks. Kareem released it around the free throw line and Wilt swatted it while the ball was at its highest point. To me, it looked like it was on its way down. It was border-line goal tending.

The only "legit" block of the sky hook I witnessed was when we were playing the Washington Bullets with Manut Bol. At 7'7", Bol blocked the sky hook from behind Kareem as the ball bounced off the backboard. 

Was there another instance? If not, the skyhook was blocked only 1.5 times during Kareem's career. 8)

All true... And Olajuwon was still the best ever.

Yeah, I would have to agree that Kareem somehow gets under-recognized for his greatness.  Yes, his sky hook was the single best half court offense in the history of the NBA.  What a Laker team having the fast break it did and when in the half court set having Jabbar.

Jabbar carried the Buck's teams.  I remember the 1974 Game 6 final.  Here's the last few minutes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOjkFKIwLYQ