NBA 2019 CHAMPIONS

you guys have to experience that, awesome.  takes a lot of good players to be champs, gsw battled - matter of fact, i thought it was coming back to TO.

Toronto played well but let’s not kid ourselves either.  No Durant basically for the entire series and the game was tied late when Thompson went down with the injury.  

Still, Toronto won and they have a title.  As a Bucks fan this stings because it could (and should) have been them hoisting the trophy but oh well.  Come back motivated next year because even if Kahwi returns to Toronto I think the path to the Finals is wide open.  

That might have been the most joyless title win I've watched in the 40+ years I've been watching these. Yes. Toronto beat who was in front of them and all titles count, but just look at the circumstances. 

1. They won the title with what is likely to be a one year rental player. Kawhi is great, obviously, but it was just like a day at the office for him. He seemed like the guy I see all the time in business who got transferred to another city by his company so he could get more experience before he ended up where he really wanted to be. When they hold a Raptors title reunion every decade will he even attend? He already had won a title before with the Spurs so you didn't even have he LeBron with the Heat or Durant with the Warriors  narrative of finally getting over the hump. Maybe Kawhi comes back to Toronto and becomes a fixture in the community and changes this narrative. 

2. They got Kawhi for a year by trading probably their most popular player, a 4 time all-star, and a guy that had become part of the Toronto community. Obviously, Kawhi was a huge upgrade over DeRozan, but this really sucked on a individual level. DeRozan will make over 150 million dollars playing basketball, so it's not a tragedy, but it still sucks. 

3. Has there ever been a worse two game stretch in NBA history for potentially career-altering injuries to superstar level players? One of the 10 best players of all time blows out his Achilles and the next game, a top 50 player all-time (and a top 10 shooter of all time) blows out his ACL?  Regardless of what you think about Durant's career moves, watching him shoot a basketball is like watching Tiger Woods at the US Open in 2000, watching Pedro Martinez pitch in the late 90s, or seeing Aaron Rodgers throw passes in his prime. It's one of those things you'll talk to your grandkids about when talking about sports. Same thing watching a game when Klay Thompson goes off (and he was on pace for one of those 45/50 point Klay playoff explosions last night). The OKC Game 6 game a few years ago is still one of the most amazing offensive performances I've ever watched. It sucks when guys like this get hurt just as a fan of basketball. 

4. The Raptors closed out the Warriors playing against Steph Curry, Draymond Green, and a bunch of guys playing hurt (Cousins, Igoudala, and Looney) or G league level players. It wasn't a great team beating another great team and overcoming. It was basically the Warriors running out of healthy guys and becoming the equivalent of an 8th seed during the Finals. 

5. I don't want the Bucks to win with a superstar rental player (say, Anthony Davis for a year). I want Giannis to lead the team to a title with a heavily home-developed roster supplemented with role players who appreciate a chance to play key roles (I count Middleton as home grown). 

It’s interesting that Toronto is being lauded for taking the risk of bringing in Kahwi and winning a title but is this really what we want to see as fans?   Kahwi quit on the Spurs.  He was just as brilliant for them in 2014 (Finals MVP) and how will he be viewed if he bails to join the Clippers?  

Who’s to say they couldn’t have been there had DeRozan stayed?   The Raptors couldn’t get past LeBron.  I’m not sure they get past Golden State had they been healthy this year. 

I just don’t think it’s a good precedent to set for these hired guns to force moves as it doesn’t always work out (see Boston this past year.  Sixers too).  

wow, you guys sound like sour grapes.  geez, raptors are world champs.  you would have loved to be in this spot.  woot!

I don’t think it’s sour grapes at all.  I just don’t think the Raptors should be placed on a pedestal or used as an example of how to build a championship team. 

They took a fairly sizable risk and it paid off.  Good for them.  But I hope it was worth it because it’s not exactly a recipe for long term success.  Loyalty is a two way street I guess. 

If Kahwi leaves, and it’s very likely he does, that’s a 40-45 win team.  They won’t be sniffing another championship anytime soon. 

pkr_north posted:

wow, you guys sound like sour grapes.  geez, raptors are world champs.  you would have loved to be in this spot.  woot!

Of course we would have as Bucks fans, but this entire Raptors team felt like a rental. How would you have felt if the Bucks had traded Giannis straight up for Kawhi Leonard last off-season and then we had won a title? Based on the combination of regular and post-season performance, Kawhi was the real NBA MVP this year. It's likely he would have given the Bucks a better chance to win a title than Giannis this year. 

If we had a crystal ball for next year and we we were guaranteed a title if we traded Giannis straight up for one year of Anthony Davis would you want to do it? At this point in their careers, Anthony Davis probably gives you a better shot to win a title than Giannis (and there is no bigger Giannis fan than me). Anthony Davis may be better than Kawhi right now. In 2017-18, the year before Davis self-tanked, he averaged 28 and 11 and lead the league in blocked shots. He shot 53% from the floor, 34% from 3, and 83% from the line and was named to the 1st team All-NBA defense and First team All-NBA. He's been all-NBA 3 times and he's only 26 years old. Many I'm in the minority, but I'd rather keep Giannis and see if he can drive an eventual title breakthrough than give him up to Kawhi the year or Anthony Davis next year to win one title. 

The guy I felt best for last night was Kyle Lowry. 

Tschmack posted:

Toronto played well but let’s not kid ourselves either.  No Durant basically for the entire series and the game was tied late when Thompson went down with the injury.  

Still, Toronto won and they have a title.  As a Bucks fan this stings because it could (and should) have been them hoisting the trophy but oh well.  Come back motivated next year because even if Kahwi returns to Toronto I think the path to the Finals is wide open.  

Despite what I thought was horrible officiating, esp gm3, TOR made their shots, their FTs and played D. Amazing what that does. Bucks had to have learned a lesson. Tough one.

Tschmack posted:

I don’t think it’s sour grapes at all.  I just don’t think the Raptors should be placed on a pedestal or used as an example of how to build a championship team. 

They took a fairly sizable risk and it paid off.  Good for them.  But I hope it was worth it because it’s not exactly a recipe for long term success.  Loyalty is a two way street I guess. 

If Kahwi leaves, and it’s very likely he does, that’s a 40-45 win team.  They won’t be sniffing another championship anytime soon. 

 

i prefer to enjoy the championship for longer than 12 hours before we think about next year.  i suppose if they lost, it would be wow, couldn't even beat a down gsw team.  they played with guts, and it was not just KL, he is def the lynchpin over the term of the run, but vanvleet, pascal, siakam and the big guys also had something to say.  so ya, i will enjoy forever, regardless of the circumstances of injury, a championship is a championship.  if tom brady was out, would winning a sb mean less? not to me, you capitalized, you 'did your job'.

and yes, kl is not coming back, but he did his job.  enough about nba, back to packers for me.  super happy for the raps though.

Tschmack posted:

They took a fairly sizable risk and it paid off.  Good for them.  But I hope it was worth it 

Anthony Davis likes that response.  Maybe you can provide Danny Ainge with some insight?  He’s a genyious after all.  Kyrie wants a running mate. Assuming his mercurial ass stays in Boston. 

I actually hope other teams take the hired gun approach.  I mean, Toronto is now like the NBA Rivera.  Their GM is so good he doesn’t have a long term deal gets into altercations with the po po and their fans cheer a brutal injury.  And Drake is still Drake! 

Benchmark! 

MichiganPacker2 posted:

That might have been the most joyless title win I've watched in the 40+ years I've been watching these. 

5. I don't want the Bucks to win with a superstar rental player (say, Anthony Davis for a year). I want Giannis to lead the team to a title with a heavily home-developed roster supplemented with role players who appreciate a chance to play key roles (I count Middleton as home grown). 

If the Bucks run this team back, which all indications are that they will, it sure as hell would not be an NBAAU team. Brogdon and Giannis draftees, Middleton a throw-in 2nd rounder in the Brandon Knight trade, Lopez picked up for a pittance off the scrap heap, and then Bledsoe who was jettisoned by the Suns with 3 PGs on their roster. The bench, which proved to be one of the team’s strengths, scrap heap guys, non-lottery draftees, and a couple of 4th tier FAs. 

Your comment about joyless- man, what a great observation. It really was. Leonard is the antithesis of charisma, and Lowry- knowing full well he’s never getting another shot, acting like the girl at the wedding trying to be really happy while the boyfriend of 7 years who she broke up with 6 months ago is in the wedding party (Derozen). Toronto traded away two team stalwarts drafted and developed by the thigh to get two rentals that were key guys in winning the championship- knowing that neither of the will be back next year. Just think- Toronto may not make the playoffs next year. They most certainly will not be a contender running Lowry, Siakam, Powell, VanVleet and Ibaka back. Especially if Lowry plays more like he has the last 2 seasons, shooting 40% and disappearing for weeks at a time either injured or unable to be effective. Even if Gasol opts in, they’re not any better than a 6-7th seed. 

Toronto has less curb appeal as Champions as the 2000s Pistons. 

pkr_north posted:

wow, you guys sound like sour grapes.  geez, raptors are world champs.  you would have loved to be in this spot.  woot!

 Enjoy your win. Toronto Raptors are NBA world champs. There is not an asterik for the 2015 Golden State team that played against LeBron who lost Kyrie and Kevin Love to injury, or when Zaza injured Kawhi Leonard when San Antonio was looking strong.  The Rings and Trophies are forever in the books. I was really happy for Lowry  and Ibaka , they couldn't control their emotions as the game was ending. Pretty neat raw emotion. 

 Some guys are just mad because the Raptors exposed the Bucks and Giannis. 

As for the hired  gun approach, it does kind of suck. Some lost respect for Kevin Durant when he goes to a 73 win super team because he can't beat them and wants an easy path to a ring. Same with Boogy Cousins....oops. Toronto moved Derozen for a rental on Kawhi to essentially give them a chance after years of coming up short. Cant fault them for that...now they might pay for it. Have a feeling they are pretty happy with where they're at.

After being a Bucks fan for over 40 years of failure, it shouldnt bother anyone to take all means necessary to get a shot at what seems improbable. 1971 was a life time ago. 

Why have respect for Durant?  I feel bad that he got injured, but he bailed on OKC and took the path of least resistance (joining Golden State).  That 2016 Thunder team was plenty good enough to win a title but nope.  He was a king in OKC that could have had a key to the city.  

Kahwi should garner a lot more credit than he gets.  He does all the right things on the court.  Plays hard.  Plays hurt.  Plays defense.  But how can we overlook how poorly he handled the Spurs situation?  I mean, he quit on them.   What’s more chicken shit than that?   Yet he got Toronto a title.  And he’ll leave you just like he forced his way out of San Antonio.  

How can I forget about LeBron and Kyrie?    LeBron says all the right things but he’s playing puppet master GM behind the scenes with his idiot agent.  I hope it ends badly for him (no more titles).  As for Irving, I don’t care how talented he is given his antics and no leadership skills why would you bring him in?  Buyer be ****ing ware with that guy. 

Then there’s Jimmy Butler.  Much like Kahwi he pouts and quits on his team to get his way.   

Thank God for Giannis 

Packdog posted:

pkr_north posted:

wow, you guys sound like sour grapes.  geez, raptors are world champs.  you would have loved to be in this spot.  woot!

 Enjoy your win. Toronto Raptors are NBA world champs. There is not an asterik for the 2015 Golden State team that played against LeBron who lost Kyrie and Kevin Love to injury, or when Zaza injured Kawhi Leonard when San Antonio was looking strong.  The Rings and Trophies are forever in the books. I was really happy for Lowry  and Ibaka , they couldn't control their emotions as the game was ending. Pretty neat raw emotion. 

 Some guys are just mad because the Raptors exposed the Bucks and Giannis. 

As for the hired  gun approach, it does kind of suck. Some lost respect for Kevin Durant when he goes to a 73 win super team because he can't beat them and wants an easy path to a ring. Same with Boogy Cousins....oops. Toronto moved Derozen for a rental on Kawhi to essentially give them a chance after years of coming up short. Cant fault them for that...now they might pay for it. Have a feeling they are pretty happy with where they're at.

After being a Bucks fan for over 40 years of failure, it shouldnt bother anyone to take all means necessary to get a shot at what seems improbable. 1971 was a life time ago. 

Seriously. I remember the Championship from my 7-8 year old eyes as a kid... loved the Bucks then and always have. I want them to take it all next season, for sure. Thinking this will be very interesting how Jon Horst will secure the 2019-2020 roster.