Johnson posted: the NFL absolutely sucks and I am trying to break my addiction to it...this stupidity
No one broke my Packers addiction better than Hundley. I watched exactly 5 minutes of the second Vikings game.
Pakrz posted:Wrong. Labor practices are negotiated through collective bargaining (Assuming there's a union in place). Employee conduct is absolutely dictated by the employer. It's why you can't go into work wearing a t-shirt with "**** Off" written on the front. Yea, you have the 1st Amendment right to express yourself, but the company's policy dictates that you cannot wear that shirt.
Stop thinking an NFL player is on some sort of special platform. They are nothing more than an employee... just like the kid flipping a burger at Dairy Queen.
Except conduct is negotiated just like drug policy, off season activities and many other things- and it is my belief that this probably hasn't been agreed to just yet. We will see what the NFLPA does, if they go to court then it ain't settled law- if they whine then I will say it is an employer prerogative!
Your belief is wrong. Employee conduct is dictated by the employer.
Have you ever had a job in your life where you were handed a policy manual by the boss and then permitted to negotiate the rules and regulations of the organization?
Pakrz posted:Herschel posted:Pakrz posted:Enough with the political Trump BS. I thought we had some kind of X4 rule about that stuff?
Employers have the right to set standards of conduct for their employees. Looks like the NFL did. Now the employees have a choice to make.
But the government pays for the event, and often provides the resources (unless you think teams have a stash of F-15s and pilots somewhere, for example) not the team.
Don't be a dumfukk Mr. F-15.
NFL players are nothing more than employees working for a company. The company absolutely has the right to dictate employee conduct.
The problem is the government pays for the displays and protesting government action during a government-sponsored even may not wash, legally.
The NFL structure isn't like a normal employer/employee setup. They get game checks. That's how they're worded. Not pregame checks, not in the stadium checks, but game checks. They could get cut Sunday morning and not get paid. That might be grounds for legal challenge as it could be ruled they're not paid for the anthem or post-game interviews. That could mean they're ruled essentially off hours people in publicly-funded stadiums, not paid employees, outside of actual game time.
Pakrz posted:Wrong. Labor practices are negotiated through collective bargaining (Assuming there's a union in place). Employee conduct is absolutely dictated by the employer.
The Code of Conduct is also negotiated as part of the CBA.
Pakrz posted:Your belief is wrong. Employee conduct is dictated by the employer.
Have you ever had a job in your life where you were handed a policy manual by the boss and then permitted to negotiate the rules and regulations of the organization?
Except the NFL players are part of a union, who does negotiate the rules and regulations the union members abide by. Yes, an NFL front office employee has to abide by an employer created policy manual, just like the rest of us. The collective bargaining agreement is over 300 pages long, so it's not just some general agreement sayin the owners and player will work together. It literally governs everything about the player-owner relationship. NBA agreement dictates that players must wear suits to games, so they do. It used to not say that, so they didn't. Owners could not force players to wear suits until it was collectively bargained and agreed to by both sides. My guess is you've never been part of a union, only because unions are so rare these days. So using your personal experience at your job makes no sense.
That said, NFL will probably try to say this qualifies as "conduct detrimental", which will never hold up in court. Some owners have already come out saying they will pay all fines levied. And there is no way to prove it has any effect on ratings or business. This is all just a huge mistake by the NFL.
Here's my thought on this....
I don't care about your politics or your agendas or anything else you're supposedly supporting.
I tune in to this sport to watch people play a game at a very high level. Something I cannot do.
Using the Sunday NFL games as a platform to "show your solidarity" or "effect change" isn't the proper way to go about it. If I tried to do that at my job, I'd be terminated within 24 hours. Just like this guy!
If you're concerned about "effecting change" then do something about it DURING THE WEEK & get out in the community!! NOT before the game & during the National Anthem.
Play the effing game & STFU!
Even if allowable under the CBA that doesn't make it good policy and the owners should have attempted to find a resolution with the players instead of acting unilaterally. Think the owners are just trying to make it disappear and that's not happening. Trump will continue to exploit the issue politically to gin up his base and if the owners felt otherwise it was just foolish thinking.
"You have to stand proudly for the National Anthem. You shouldn't be playing, you shouldn't be there. Maybe they shouldn't be in the country...the NFL owners did the right thing" -President @realDonaldTrump pic.twitter.com/bt36t4EX5u
â FOX & friends (@foxandfriends) May 24, 2018
"..maybe they shouldn't be in the country." Never a smart move to attempt to appease a racist, even if he's the president.
MNPackman posted:The players will just find another way to protest, probably like Tommie Smith and Juan Carlos at the '68 Olympics. After all, the new rule only states that the players must stand.
The players don't have to face the flag while standing, do they? I don't think so.
Itâs amazing to me how these owners with unlimited wealth at their disposal cannot own this issue and deal with it. If you arenât sure? Go out and hire the best PR firm and labor counsel that money can buy!
All they have to do is sit down with the union and talk it through. It could end up being a win win for both sides. Instead? They make a bad situation worse because they have to assert their power and authority and control no matter what. Brilliant strategy!!
As for the âemployers can make and enforce whatever rules they wantâ mantra I would direct you to the NLRA and specifically protected concerted activities in the workplace. Trumpâs NLRB may not look or act like Obamaâs NLRB, but I have to believe they would have some interest in this matter.
Just a reminder, this thread is about Patriotism, not politics. I'm sure both sides of the political fence will try to maneuver this into their favor because Americans, in general, are dum.
Pakrz posted:Enough with the political Trump BS. I thought we had some kind of X4 rule about that stuff?
Employers have the right to set standards of conduct for their employees. Looks like the NFL did. Now the employees have a choice to make.
It's the Trumpsters that are pushing the anti kneeling /disrespecting the flag narrative. Trump himself has berated the players for kneeling in protest. The employee/employer relationship is governed by the collective bargaining agreement which is signed by both owners and the Players' Association reps. The owners cannot just add a new regulation to the agreement without negotiating with the Players' Association about it. Why can't the League play the National Anthem while all the players are in the locker rooms, before the game, like they used to do just a few years ago?
CUPackFan posted:Pakrz posted:Your belief is wrong. Employee conduct is dictated by the employer.
Have you ever had a job in your life where you were handed a policy manual by the boss and then permitted to negotiate the rules and regulations of the organization?
Except the NFL players are part of a union, who does negotiate the rules and regulations the union members abide by. Yes, an NFL front office employee has to abide by an employer created policy manual, just like the rest of us. The collective bargaining agreement is over 300 pages long, so it's not just some general agreement sayin the owners and player will work together. It literally governs everything about the player-owner relationship. NBA agreement dictates that players must wear suits to games, so they do. It used to not say that, so they didn't. Owners could not force players to wear suits until it was collectively bargained and agreed to by both sides. My guess is you've never been part of a union, only because unions are so rare these days. So using your personal experience at your job makes no sense.
That said, NFL will probably try to say this qualifies as "conduct detrimental", which will never hold up in court. Some owners have already come out saying they will pay all fines levied. And there is no way to prove it has any effect on ratings or business. This is all just a huge mistake by the NFL.
I'll dig into it one last time and then I'll move on...
Employee conduct is not a negotiable item. Standards of conduct are set by the employer through management rights. Collective Bargaining covers items such as wages, fringe benefits, grievance procedures, scheduling, pension, etc.
Some organizations allow Permissive Bargaining. In that arena, management and represented employees agree to negotiate certain items that are not governed through the Collective Bargaining process. That may be where your NBA suit example comes in. Although, I don't know a thing about your example and am strictly taking your word for it.
Your guess on my experience would be incorrect. I was the VP of a union for 8 years on the labor side. I have been on the other side for 12 years, 4 of which I have represented my organization through the Collective Bargaining process. I also hold a MA in Organizational Leadership, graduated from the Wisconsin Command College and am a Certified Public Manager; all of which included extensive information on the CBA process. I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I have an idea of what I'm talking about.
Think about it this way... If standing for the National Anthem was a negotiable item, do you really think a company the size of the NFL would've taken the action they did? The NFL is represented by some of the most powerful and knowledgable attorneys/staff in the world. We don't have to like the decisions they make, but they know what they're doing.
CAPackFan95 posted:Props to the NFL. Protesting? Come on, these guys are pro athletes and coddled at every step. If you don't want to get killed by cops, maybe don't be black breaking the law.
Anyhoo. Anyone got anything new on any Milwaukee Bucks players today?
Tell that to Philando Castile. While riding in his car with his family, he was pulled over by St. Paul police for having a broken tail light. Castile was subsequently shot to death, in front of his wife and child, while following the officer's orders.
St. Anthony Police. He was pulled over, in part, because he matched the description of an Armed Robbery suspect. The girl in the car wasn't his wife. The child in the car wasn't his. The officer told Castile twice not to reach for the firearm. The officer was charged, tried in a court of law and found not guilty by a jury of his peers.
Facts matter.
This is a sports message board. Leave your personal agenda on the doorstep... Or at a minimum, know WTF you're talking about if you're going to take that leap.
Did you guys know that preventable medical error accounts for the 3rd highest death rates in the USA. According to Johns Hopkins University, roughly 251,000 American citizens die each year due to mistakes/failures in the medical profession. This isn't new information... I just find it interesting. 700 people a day. Wow.
Herschel posted:Pakrz posted:Herschel posted:Pakrz posted:Enough with the political Trump BS. I thought we had some kind of X4 rule about that stuff?
Employers have the right to set standards of conduct for their employees. Looks like the NFL did. Now the employees have a choice to make.
But the government pays for the event, and often provides the resources (unless you think teams have a stash of F-15s and pilots somewhere, for example) not the team.
Don't be a dumfukk Mr. F-15.
NFL players are nothing more than employees working for a company. The company absolutely has the right to dictate employee conduct.
The problem is the government pays for the displays and protesting government action during a government-sponsored even may not wash, legally.
The NFL structure isn't like a normal employer/employee setup. They get game checks. That's how they're worded. Not pregame checks, not in the stadium checks, but game checks. They could get cut Sunday morning and not get paid. That might be grounds for legal challenge as it could be ruled they're not paid for the anthem or post-game interviews. That could mean they're ruled essentially off hours people in publicly-funded stadiums, not paid employees, outside of actual game time.
From a legal standpoint the Trump Twitter case may be very relevant.
This whole country/world is going to heck in a handbasket. Next thing you know, Viking fans will be allowed to post on a packer site.
Pakrz posted:Did you guys know that preventable medical error accounts for the 3rd highest death rates in the USA. According to Johns Hopkins University, roughly 251,000 American citizens die each year due to mistakes/failures in the medical profession. This isn't new information... I just find it interesting. 700 people a day. Wow.
I wouldâve thought it was dentists.
Even looks like my dentist growing up.
Is it safe? 
Once patriotism becomes forced or coerced, it's no longer patriotism..We are not an authoritarian country.
Melania's had to nudge this orange porn ****er's elbow to get him to put his hand over his heart during the anthem. He's stumbled over the words during the playing of it at a game. Players kneeling during it is a sign of disrespect, then wtf are these from Trump? maybe he shouldn't be in this country.
Pakrz posted:Come on...
It's a cultural/societal norm in America whether you agree with it or not. When you were a child, you were asked to stand and place your hand over your heart to say the Pledge of Allegiance. For decades, the standard has been for citizens to stand, remove their hats and honor the flag during the National Anthem.
You don't want to do it, fine. It's America after all... but let's stop pretending its not abnormal behavior that attracts critics.
Maybe thatâs why I got funny looks in class?
Or it couldâve been I was sitting in the corner hissing at everyone.
hntr74 posted:Once patriotism becomes forced or coerced, it's no longer patriotism..We are not an authoritarian country.
Post Modern thought is being abused and hence collapsing in on itself. This is pretty much the summary of almost every aspect of American political culture.
michiganjoe posted:"You have to stand proudly for the National Anthem. You shouldn't be playing, you shouldn't be there. Maybe they shouldn't be in the country...the NFL owners did the right thing" -President @realDonaldTrump pic.twitter.com/bt36t4EX5u
â FOX & friends (@foxandfriends) May 24, 2018"..maybe they shouldn't be in the country.â Never a smart move to attempt to appease a racist, even if he's the president.
I donât think youâve been paying close enough attention.
Brainwashed Boris posted:Here's my thought on this....
I don't care about your politics or your agendas or anything else you're supposedly supporting.
I tune in to this sport to watch people play a game at a very high level. Something I cannot do.
Using the Sunday NFL games as a platform to "show your solidarity" or "effect change" isn't the proper way to go about it. If I tried to do that at my job, I'd be terminated within 24 hours. Just like this guy!
If you're concerned about "effecting change" then do something about it DURING THE WEEK & get out in the community!! NOT before the game & during the National Anthem.
Play the effing game & STFU!
But Stormy Daniels kneels all the time at her job. No one ever complains. Itâs because sheâs white.
Henry posted:Pakrz posted:Come on...
It's a cultural/societal norm in America whether you agree with it or not. When you were a child, you were asked to stand and place your hand over your heart to say the Pledge of Allegiance. For decades, the standard has been for citizens to stand, remove their hats and honor the flag during the National Anthem.
You don't want to do it, fine. It's America after all... but let's stop pretending its not abnormal behavior that attracts critics.
Maybe thatâs why I got funny looks in class?
Or it couldâve been I was sitting in the corner hissing at everyone.
I can totally see you doing that.
My 2 cents. While I do stand and remove my hat, I guess it is up to the individual if they want to. For all I care, you can pick your nose during the anthem while sitting on the crapper. It does not impact me or my core beliefs.
Forced patriotism is the best kind.
From SI, MMQB
Donald Trump did come up. âOh yeah,â Packers president Mark Murphy said, laughing, when I asked him. âIt was more how [Trump] might react, anticipating that. Also, how the fans will react, how the media will react. Thatâs what we tried to think through. âĶ No matter what we did, [Trump] would probably try to get involved one way or the otherâeither criticizing us or taking credit for the change.â
The point, though, wasnât belabored. One owner recalled Trumpâs name coming up three times, and never for any extended time. As Cowboys owner Jerry Jones explained it to me, â[Trump] certainly initiated some of the thinking, and was a part of the entire picture. But all of that was given consideration.â
and from our own Milwaukee Buck: Sterling Brown.
My experience in January with the Milwaukee Police Department was wrong and shouldnât happen to anybody. What should have been a simple parking ticket turned into an attempt at police intimidation, followed by the unlawful use of physical force, including being handcuffed and tased, and then unlawfully booked. This experience with the Milwaukee Police Department has forced me to stand up and tell my story so that I can help prevent these injustices from happening in the future.
Situations like mine and worse happen every day in the black community. âĶ The common denominator in all of these situations has been racism towards the minority community, the abuse of power, and the lack of accountability for officers involved. The lack of repercussions for the police officers involved in so many of these cases is offensive. This is a slap in the face to the victimsâ families and communities.
Black men shouldnât have to have their guard up and instantly be on the defensive when seeing a police officer, but itâs our reality and a real problem. There must be mutual respect and both sides have to figure out how to accomplish this.
Situations like mine and worse happen every day in the black community. âĶ The common denominator in all of these situations has been racism towards the minority community, the abuse of power, and the lack of accountability for officers involved. The lack of repercussions for the police officers involved in so many of these cases is offensive. This is a slap in the face to the victimsâ families and communities.
Black men shouldnât have to have their guard up and instantly be on the defensive when seeing a police officer, but itâs our reality and a real problem. There must be mutual respect and both sides have to figure out how to accomplish this.
This is exactly why the NFL players kneel.......
Frank Burns eats worms
Attachments
Images (1)
just for reference, and, yes, I know the NFL isn't a public skool...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ducation_v._Barnette
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
Brainwashed Boris posted:Frank Burns eats worms
Missed opportunity by the NFL, should have done this.
South Park fixes the National Anthem problem pic.twitter.com/hFP6PF1k3W
â Born Salty (@cjzero) September 15, 2016
Tschmack posted:Itâs amazing to me how these owners with unlimited wealth at their disposal cannot own this issue and deal with it. If you arenât sure? Go out and hire the best PR firm and labor counsel that money can buy!
All they have to do is sit down with the union and talk it through. It could end up being a win win for both sides. Instead? They make a bad situation worse because they have to assert their power and authority and control no matter what. Brilliant strategy!!
As for the âemployers can make and enforce whatever rules they wantâ mantra I would direct you to the NLRA and specifically protected concerted activities in the workplace. Trumpâs NLRB may not look or act like Obamaâs NLRB, but I have to believe they would have some interest in this matter.
From the outside looking, it looks to me that the owners are way more worried about the eroioding fan base than the kneeling protest. And how big a turn off it is to a large amount of fans.
bandit posted:From the outside looking, it looks to me that the owners are way more worried about the eroioding fan base than the kneeling protest. And how big a turn off it is to a large amount of fans.
It's a very specific fan base:
It's white males 40 and over they are most worried about. Why?
Because it's always the same answer.
This is the demographic who has the money. These are the ones who buy the luxury suites, who are the season ticket holders, who buys 100's of dollars in merchandise every year, and who puts their asses in front of their 55 inch flat screen TV on Sundays.
Plain and simple, that's who the NFL doesn't want to alienate or worse, scare off. So this new "policy" is nothing more then Rog and company throwing them a bone under the guise of being American/Patriotic, respecting the troops, etc.
If it was African Americans who we're the ones buying the suites, the season tickets, most of the merchandise in mass compared to white males? Then you would have the exact opposite policy. Players would be allowed to kneel and protest, no problem.
It's always about where the money is. Always.
To me the real issue for the owners was making a uniform policy so that there would be no competitive advantage among teams in regard to social activism. If Bob McNair or Jerry Jones make it clear internally that their players are required to stand for the anthem, but Jeff Lurie or Arthur Blank tell their players they will not only allow them to kneel but they will pay any fines, which teams do you think will be more attractive to players? Teams and their cities have reputations among players, some guys don't want to go play in the cold, some guys don't want to go to big cities. The league is 68% black, I guarantee there are a lot of players who will avoid teams that discourage kneeling. To me this policy is the more protest-sensitive owners trying to prevent that from happening.
Pakrz posted:St. Anthony Police. He was pulled over, in part, because he matched the description of an Armed Robbery suspect. The girl in the car wasn't his wife. The child in the car wasn't his. The officer told Castile twice not to reach for the firearm. The officer was charged, tried in a court of law and found not guilty by a jury of his peers.
Facts matter.
This is a sports message board. Leave your personal agenda on the doorstep... Or at a minimum, know WTF you're talking about if you're going to take that leap.
Oh, the irony.
The simple fact is you piss on the flag every time you tell someone they have to stand for it and the anthem because the very symbolism it represents is that you don't have the right to tell anyone else what it means to them, how they feel, or how they have to honor.
Nobody is telling you you can't stand, hand and hat for the ceremony. You're trying to dictate to other people how they have to. That's a very simple distinction you seem completely unable to make.
Until the NFL forces all stadiums to hard close every concession stand during the playing of the National Anthem every last one of them can STFU over their desire to seek compromise. Owners, Goodell, all of them.