@vitaflo posted:The D did make a stop. The refs just decided to call a PI that, had it been any other time during the game, they wouldn't have. The refs were consistently letting players play all night until that play.
MLF's idea to rely on the defense actually worked if the refs had been consistent the entire game.
The hold at the end was no more egregious than the hold on Rodgers interception that wasn’t called.
@Timpranillo posted:Well, Gute's play for 3/4 years from now pays off with a championship, I'll be sure to come back and eat crow.
Sadly, I don’t see that happening. I pray that I’m wrong, but I would be very surprised if it did.
The whole picking of Love smacks of hubris, to me. It says, “I’d rather win 4-5 year from now with the team I constructed, than to fundamentally improve the team I inherited, and take a chance on getting to the Super Bowl now.” I just can’t get that thought out of my mind. In Love, he didn’t take one of the truly elite quarterbacks in the draft. He took a project. He took a long shot for the future over taking players that could immediately help this team.
Here’s a clue for our GM. Jordan Love isn’t ever going to be Aaron Rodgers.
Ain’t going to happen.
Sure, we can all hope that lightning strikes again, that we get our third (really fourth) outstanding starting quarterback in a row. Majkowski was the MVP runner up in 1989. Then, he got hurt. The odds are against it. And the odds are stacked like Dolly Parton against Love ever being as careful with the ball as Rodgers has been for the entirety of his career.
Think about this, everyone. I know that the rules changes have made it easier to throw the ball than it was in the days of Unitas, or Tarkenton, or Marino, or even Favre and Manning. But the rules aside, Aaron Rodgers, in the last ten years (143 starts), has thrown 325 touchdown passes, and 57 interceptions.
He averages less than 6 picks per season. And yet, he’s not only won just one Super Bowl, he’s only BEEN to one Super Bowl.
Yet the human turnover machine, Eli Manning, in 159 games played, threw 165 interceptions against 262 touchdowns-and he won two Super Bowls. And he beat the supposed GOAT in both.
That speaks volumes as to how utterly this franchise has failed to field a complete team.
I feel terrible for Aaron. But, at least he’s filthy rich. Is small fries have been so utterly loyal, and year after year, the Packers are Lucy pulling the ball away, and we’re Charlie Brown landing flat on our ass.
@MichiganPacker2 posted:I'd add Gutey to this list. The key points are this.
1. You drafted and approached the last offseason like you thought you were going to regress. That sends a message to your current players.
2. In the most important play of MLFs career in Green Bay, he showed that he trusted his defense more than Aaron Rodgers, D. Adams, and Tonyan. I don't think Rodgers will ever really get over that.
Nothing the offense did on the previous 3 plays gave me confidence they would score on 4th down. Not like it was at the 3 yard line.
Shitty fucking D and shitty ST hurt this team more than the offensive playcalling.
You have to shit can Pettine. The message to the players this offseason wasn’t great. You can’t get away with the status quo feeling this time.
I hope AR moves on after this if only so we can stop beating the "this organization has wasted too many years of HOF QB play" dead horse into glue.
We lose the NFCC and geniuses on X4 blame JORDAN LOVE?😂😂😂
@lovepack posted:At least we all can enjoy the Superbowl without any stress.
I’ll watch a PBS pledge drive and paint drying at the same time before I watch that fucking game. Fuck Clete, Kevin King, and noodle arm fellated Brady. Done til training camp, which will likely be Covided out again. Today hurts.
@Goalline posted:How many teams have fired coaches after making it to the NFCC games? How many of those coaches ran a top 10 unit? Pettine is back.
I don’t give a shit about yardage. Yards don’t win games. Points do. We were 9th in yards allowed. We were 13th in points given up.
And fuck yes, I’m pissed at the defense. The defense allowed Tampa Bay to convert one third down after another, including 9 of their first 11 (one of which was 3rd and 17). They also gave up a 4th down conversion. 10 of 15 in third and fourth down is crap defense, and a number of the other conversions were 7, 8 or 9 yards.
The defense allowed Brady to hit a home run ball right before the half. The defense sacked a 43 year old statue under center exactly one time.
I'm still pissed at Rodgers for not running it on third down. If he doesn't make it, you have a short fourth down and then you go for it. You make it, you're in great shape. You don't and you bury TB deep and then count on your D. I pissed at Pettine for that D call before half. You gotta know they are going to attack King, who's been the weak link all year back there and doesn't have the speed to stick with a fast guy or technique to overcome the lack of speed. And at MLF for not finding a way to get it in the EZ both times. And at MLF for not sticking to the hurry-up which TB couldn't keep up to.
Just a host of things that GB beat themselves at all game long, but when it looked like they were going to be buried they came back only to choke at the end. That's what sucks. It was there for the taking and we gave it right back.
Kinda fitting that the team who went all out with FA (before and during the season) and re-signings for a 1 year Super Bowl run made it to the Super Bowl.
Meanwhile, Love has never worn a game jersey and King is still on the roster, so next year is definitely looking up once we draft our new special teams players and round out our starting lineups with undrafted free agents who will likely be on a practice squad in 4 years.
@Goalline posted:We lose the NFCC and geniuses on X4 blame JORDAN LOVE?😂😂😂
I’m pretty sure nobody on X4 is blaming a guy that hasn’t stepped on the field once as an NFL player. He declared for the draft, a team took him.
We are, however, blaming the guy who picked him instead of addressing one of the few spots that kept us from getting to the Super Bowl this year.
@NumberThree posted:Kinda fitting that the team who went all out with FA (before and during the season) and re-signings for a 1 year Super Bowl run made it to the Super Bowl.
Meanwhile, Love has never worn a game jersey and King is still on the roster, so next year is definitely looking up once we draft our new special teams players and round out our starting lineups with undrafted free agents who will likely be on a practice squad in 4 years.
8 of the other 15 NFC teams have now been to the Super Bowl since the Pack's last appearance - and none of the 8 include our NFC North foes the Bears, Lions, or Vikings..
Over the past decade, the Organization's aversion to going "all in" has been well documented and its success in capturing NFC North has been much celebrated.
Perhaps it is time to stop emphasizing the goal of being "competitive" (now and in the future) and really make one last go of getting to a Super Bowl, not just making the playoffs, while Aaron is still around.
Then again, that would contravene what the Organization has been about since 2011 so probably not.
Defensive lapse at the end of the first half was inexcusable, but loss was really more about the failures of the offense. Whether it's repeated failures in the red zone or two ugly three and outs after interceptions they came up short all day.
+ It was a better game than last year
+ I won both my bets
MLF must've thought the defense was going to get him the ball back....right?
We can look at all the individual plays that would have made a difference but "big picture"? They were better than us in three critical position groups; 1) Offensive line 2) Defensive line 3) Lbers. Tough to win when you lose match-ups in those three areas.
Bucs were better in those three areas and the Packers still had plenty of opportunities to win the game and squandered them. Surprised at how MLF seemed to abandon the running game in the second half (red zones and after both Jaire picks).
Well of course MLF abandoned the run, he was doing what most on here have demanded. He put the ball in the hands of the guy who is the only guy that could lead us to the Super Bowl. So 1st he gets called out for not running, then he gets called out for taking the ball out of Rodgers hands and kicking a FG. What the hell is the man supposed to do?
Rogers was better this year because of the run. The run (and AR), made our weak receiving corps look good all year. Glad to see MVS step it up, but I know why AR targets DA.
Rodgers outplayed Brady and lost. I would not have expected that. Now, Rodgers needs to be MVP Rodgers if we want to be in the superbowl, I don't think that is an outlandish ask from the organization, pretty good Rodgers was not enough (and I still want to circle back to how we stopped putting the ball in our RB's hands... maybe Jones fumbles and Dillon's fumbles last week were heavier in Mayo's mind that we know).
@ammo posted:Well of course MLF abandoned the run, he was doing what most on here have demanded. He put the ball in the hands of the guy who is the only guy that could lead us to the Super Bowl. So 1st he gets called out for not running, then he gets called out for taking the ball out of Rodgers hands and kicking a FG. What the hell is the man supposed to do?
I think a lot of it was losing Aaron Jones. Williams is a good backup, but he's not going to break plays open like Jones does. The criticism could be why not run Dillon more?
@ammo posted:Well of course MLF abandoned the run, he was doing what most on here have demanded. He put the ball in the hands of the guy who is the only guy that could lead us to the Super Bowl. So 1st he gets called out for not running, then he gets called out for taking the ball out of Rodgers hands and kicking a FG. What the hell is the man supposed to do?
Who was it who ' listen to the fans and you will be sitting with them'.
@mrtundra posted:No stress here, as I will, most likely, not be watching it. I hope Mahomes destroys Brady and the Bucs. That way, Brady will lose, in his home stadium and ruin the NFL's plans, for whatever.
Nope not watching that game or the coverage leading up to it. I wouldn't be able to stomach the Brady nut nuzzling that will be going on for two weeks and during the game. I will say I hope the Chiefs drop 50 points on them.
@FLPACKER posted:We can look at all the individual plays that would have made a difference but "big picture"? They were better than us in three critical position groups; 1) Offensive line 2) Defensive line 3) Lbers. Tough to win when you lose match-ups in those three areas.
And Special Teams as well.
Special teams have been shit for to damn long
Even with a weapon like Oren Burks
Buddy Ryan famously said "if you listen to the fans, you'll be sitting up there with them".
They abandoned the run because it wasn't getting anywhere. Many of us geniuses demanded before the game that we run right at them, off center similar to vs LAR. They tried that and it didn't get anywhere because those ILB's. They had a few good runs where AJ squirted free but it wasn't enough to build anything around, and then he pooped the ball out twice and got hurt.
Another thing that helped kill the run game: zero yards after contact. Other than a couple Dillon runs when he was giving free rides, there was zero yards made after contact yesterday. TB's D is just devastating when it comes to yards after contact for runners or YAC for receivers. It was impressive.
So, I will definitely be watching the bowl because I want to see how KC handles that TB D. If you can't run wide and you can't run inside then you must find success with the pass. And to do that you either need receivers who can beat man at the snap for quick yards or an OL than gives the QB more than 2 seconds. This is one of the key reasons we need a legit #2 WR. Our bench guys were a good story this year but none of that matters if you can't get guys open in the NFCC game because you're #1 is blanketed.
Bat shit crazy stuff that happened yesterday:
Davante Adams drops a TD pass on a beautiful play call that he catches 999 times out of 1000. Costs them 4 points.
Aaron Jones fumbles not once but twice, the second costing us 7 points and him his ability to play the rest of the game (chest injury).
Mantra over and over again was "the Packers must stop the run in order win". Well, they did. 76 yards and Ronald Jones carries for a ridiculous 1.1 yard per carry and the Packers lose.
Brady throws 3, 3 count them INT's. Only other QB to do that in a championship and get to the SB was Russell Wilson against a Packer's D. Fuckkk.
Rodgers throws a pick but on the same play, a blatant hold call isn't called YET a pass INT IS called on King on a pass the WR for Tampa could have never made anyway. A critical call that ensures Brady goes to the SB.
AJ Dillon, active with fresh legs and who pounded the #1 run defense in the NFL the week before isn't seen until the 3rd Q. WTF. Why, why, why.
As @GraveDigger points out, getting to the SB is damn hard. And then the above crazy shit happens to which you really just can't explain.
Sigh.
@ammo posted:Rodgers had 6, count them, 6 chances of goal to go and didn't put it in the endzone. What makes you think the 7th would have been the charm. He also had a previous chance on a 2 pt and didn't convert. What makes you think he would have been successful? If i recall correctly he also failed to execute a 2 pointer against L A.
I don't understand this way of thinking, and it seems to be the same logical process LaFleur used for kicking the field goal and thinking the D was going to stop Tom Brady in a must-have situation. Yes, the 6 chances failed, but the probability of scoring on any one doesn't change because of what happened before. Being 8 yards from the end zone with Aaron Rodgers is the best shot you are going to have to win a game. You take that chance. Aaron Rodgers is not responsible for drops in the end zone or missed blocking assignments.
@50k Club posted:I don't understand this way of thinking, and it seems to be the same logical process LaFleur used for kicking the field goal and thinking the D was going to stop Tom Brady in a must-have situation. Yes, the 6 chances failed, but the probability of scoring on any one doesn't change because of what happened before.
To be nit picky, this isn't the lottery. The probability of the success of a play isn't random. TB has shut down our red zone offense all day. You have to consider that as a coach. And rightly so.
But the rest of the argument...I can't disagree.
@50k Club posted:Aaron Rodgers is not responsible for drops in the end zone or missed blocking assignments.
Ben Fennell pointed this out last week before the NFCC. Namely, that the scheme MLF has deployed clearly works. And that the talent at WR is still a problem.
He said the plays and routes are so beautifully designed but the Packers don't have the talent to finish the plays always. Allen Lazard's drop in the EZ yesterday and the one that was a sure TD last week are prime examples. It didn't cost them last week but it clearly did this week. MVS had a terrific game on Sunday but you simply can't count on him consistently. MVS will play like he did yesterday and then shit the bed the week after.
The Packers are dire need of a really good slot WR. They will either be there in FA in March or in the 1st 2 rounds in the draft. Whether Gute pulls the trigger is another story.
With some time to think about it, here's my day-after thoughts. Long post, but cathartic. The biggest reason for this loss was playing for 2023 and beyond. If they had to do it over again, I bet they make different decisions in this year's draft.
There is a lot of blame to go around. In terms of levels, the highest levels can be assigned to Gutey, Pettine, MLF, and Kevin King. I'll get back to these at the end.
On the next level would be Billy Turner, Chandon Sullivan, Will Redmond, and ESB. I'll add Aaron Jones and Savage. The thing about these guys is we know they have limitations. They are backups for a reason. Turner got beat badly by an all-time great pass rusher being stuck on an island at LT. Sullivan played good technique and just isn't a good enough athlete to hold up. Redmond is a practice-squad level guy who was in the right place but didn't make the easy play. ESB should not be on the field, period. Turner is playing because of bad luck (Bakh). He's clearly an NFL-level player and he gave them a chance. Sullivan and Redmond are playing because Josh Jackson sucks. ESB is playing because they lack good WR depth. In other words, these 3 guys are playing because of decisions that Gutey has made you can question. Jones coughed the ball up on a huge hit. It happens to the best RBs. Savage misjudged a lob. It happens to HOF level guys (the David Tyree helmet catch vs. Rodney Harrison comes to mind).
Let's go back to the highest level of blame.
First, MLF. There were several debatable decisions, but looking back the FG kick was frustrating but there are arguments both ways. If Kevin King is even competent yesterday, the FG looks like a good decision when they get the ball back. He looks like a genius of ESB catches a ball that hits him between his two hands. You can criticize him for not running the ball, but that shows a lack of confidence in Dillon after Jones got hurt.
Second, Pettine. Pettine called a good game with one huge exception. Here's what his thought process probably was. The Bucks had the ball at the 39 with 8 seconds left and I think had one timeout left. The most likely play was to try for an extra 7-8 yards to set up a makeable FG. He played aggressive coverage to prevent that and they got burned because Kevin King got toasted. We'd have been screaming if he played soft coverage, gave up an easy 8 yard out, and the Bucs get an extra 3 points there.
Third, Kevin King. He was awful, obviously. But there was a huge question before the game about whether he was going to be able to play. He probably was nowhere near 100% and was gutting it out. He probably shouldn't have played, but he was playing because the next option was Josh Jackson, who sucks.
The person who deserves the most blame on this is Gutey. The Packers are coming off a 13-3 season where they had clear personnel deficiencies in several areas. You could go one of two ways. First, you could assume the record was a bit of mirage and assume regression and start a soft rebuild. Or, you could be aggressive and try to sell out a bit to get over the hump. He clearly chose Door #1. He had 4-5 huge personnel decisions to make in the next 2-3 years. These were to decide whether to extend or keep Bakhtiari, Aaron Jones, Linsley, Alexander, and Rodgers (who has a clear out after 2021). He decided to prioritize extending Bakh and probably Alexander. This led to prioritizing drafting replacements for Rodgers and Jones. TT did this in 2005, but he didn't trade up for Rodgers. AR fell to his position and he took him and then took Nick Collins in the second round. The Packers still added contributors in that draft partially because he didn't get enamored with a single-player and give up another good pick to move up a handful of spots. So, Gutey gives up a 1st and 4th to get Love and then drafts Jones' replacement in the 2nd round. Dillon had his moments, but yesterday in a cold-weather game where Jones got hurt, MLF was hesitant to give carries to a 250 pound RB. If there was ever a situation to use Dillon, yesterday was it. The fact you felt you couldn't play a RB in that situation says a lot. RBs are the one area where most guys play right away. Maybe they don't trust his pass protection, but play-action doesn't require a guy to pick up a blitzer.
The Packers draft this past off-season is what did more to cost this game than any other single decision. They added some depth at OL in the later rounds but those guys weren't ready this year (that's fine- late round guys are developmental projects), but they decided to use the first four rounds to draft replacements for Rodgers, A. Jones, and arguably M. Lewis at backup TE. Gutey was probably thinking down the road a few years he'd eventually admit "we knew we were good in 2019, but we thought we weren't good enough to win a title with that group so we had to make some tough decisions and that's why we are competitive now with Jordan Love and Dillon and we were able to do it without a complete teardown." He didn't think Rodgers was going to do what he did this simple - plain and simple. Instead of another DB that could have allowed King to sit out when he clearly wasn't healthy, they have their guys for 2022. Instead of another pass rusher, they have their guys to keep the team competitive through the mid-2020s. Instead of another offensive weapon, Gutey is more likely to keep his job running a fringe playoff team in 2023-25 instead of looking for a QB (he thinks).
The guy I do feel sorry for is Jordan Love. He's been put in a terrible spot. If the Packers go 10-6 and lose in the first round this year, we all think that they got lucky the year before and Rodgers is on his last legs. Instead, Rodgers turns back the clock a decade, wins MVP, and now unless Jordan Love turns into at least a perennial Pro Bowler he's always going to be the guy that the Packers gave up optimizing Aaron Rodgers' last title window to get. There have been about 4 cases in the last 30 years where teams moved on from HOF-level QBs directly or almost directly to another HOF-level QB: Montana-Young, Brees-Rivers, Manning-Luck, and Favre-Rodgers. In all those cases, the guys replacing the 1st HOF QB were great players in college (all top 10 in the Heisman voting in their final college years). Love had one great year in college at a mid-tier college and regressed badly as a senior.
"We had a lot of chances. Overall, just pretty gutted." https://t.co/bd68DD8ddr
— Green Bay Packers (@packers) January 25, 2021
Gutted
Guted.
No... no, no, no!
Yesterday’s outcome was not about some systemic failure. That’s nonsense. The Packers lost the game because football is like that- if the margin is that slim, mistakes on the field are why you lose, not some systemic failure. And sometimes, like yesterday, the guys making the mistakes are the guys that got you there to begin with.
This was a great season--We had a massive rabbit's foot that lost it's glow yesterday....
We still have a foundation to win and grow---I hope 12 stays.
Even my wife who watches one football game a decade said--How much is a field goal?---why are they doing this?---It was the wrong decision of course---but what was going through the mind of our all world, GOAT QB when he threw across his body into double coverage instead of running to the corner? Even if he doesn't make it, it would have been 4th and one or two...that is a crazy difference.
It was a very, very weird game---but 2 things that stick out to me--Green Bay had the 27th most difficult schedule in the league this year--that really showed yesterday...and we just got hammered at the line of scrimmage--Turner and Wagner looked like rag dolls and Gary and Preston Smith disappeared...despite all the craziness and obvious blunders, that mattered---3 ints in three possessions for a total of 6 points...as lombardi would say it comes down to blocking and tackling and the packers got beat in those 2 areas.
@DH13 posted:I hope AR moves on after this if only so we can stop beating the "this organization has wasted too many years of HOF QB play" dead horse into glue.
AR had plenty of chances to win that game. His D gave him the ball 3 times, he was passing more than running, and yet he threw a pick and couldn’t punch it in on two goal line drives.
While I agree the org could have done more, Rodgers had all the opportunities he could ever want yesterday and didn’t capitalize.
Kind of envious that Lions fans have never had to go through this.
— Andy Herman (@AndyHermanNFL) January 25, 2021
@vitaflo posted:AR had plenty of chances to win that game. His D gave him the ball 3 times, he was passing more than running, and yet he threw a pick and couldn’t punch it in on two goal line drives.
While I agree the org could have done more, Rodgers had all the opportunities he could ever want yesterday and didn’t capitalize.
He played more than good enough to win. The D "gave him the ball" 3 times but his offense also gave it back 2 and then the non-PI call on his INT. He can't catch the ball for his receivers after he puts it on their hands. Can't punch it in usually means the D did it's job = nobody was open. You're asking a QB to be perfect. That's unrealistic. He went 300+ yds and 3TD's with one iffy INT.
@vitaflo posted:AR had plenty of chances to win that game. His D gave him the ball 3 times, he was passing more than running, and yet he threw a pick and couldn’t punch it in on two goal line drives.
While I agree the org could have done more, Rodgers had all the opportunities he could ever want yesterday and didn’t capitalize.
You mean all those opportunities where his protection broke down? What plays did he miss? He threw a ball to Adams that wasn't perfect, but that Adams catches 90% of the time on one FG drive. They set up a deep shot after one of Brady's interceptions and Rodgers got hit from behind after being forced to step up in the pocket. The second down goal-to-go play on the last drive where Suh knocked down what might have been a TD to Adams? The first down play where Lazard had a ball go right over his head on first down because he wasn't looking for the ball (why would you not be looking running that pattern)? That was also a potential TD. He hit ESB between the hands and he dropped a 2 point conversion.
You could argue that maybe Rodgers went pass on RPOs (none of us really know), but it also doesn't change the fact that I don't think Dillon was even on the field after running for 9 yards on first down of their last drive. He had 3 carries for 17 yards. Where was he for most of the second half? He was tailor made to play in a game like yesterday especially after losing Jones.
The interception was on a play where the WR was clearly held. I just went through the two drives where he "couldn't punch it in in the red zone" where WRs could have made plays. Your post makes it seem like he airmailed guys wide open in the end zone or across the middle of the field or made terrible reads. That was Tom Brady in the second half. Brady looked like late-career Favre a lot yesterday where he'd see pressure and panic throw the ball as he was ducking.
He went 33 for 48 for 346 yards with 3 TDs and an interception on a blown call. The Packers had no running game, they were missing a Pro-Bowl LT and a Pro-Bowl RB in the second half, Rodgers was constantly under pressure, and his WRs other than Adams still didn't really get much separation (the TD to MVS was on a play where MVS maybe had a step and a half). Compare that to Brady's passes where whoever King or Sullivan was covering often were 4-5 yards clear.
It was Rodgers' fault for not capitalizing? Give me a break.
====================================
Aaron Rodgers was pressured 22 times Sunday, most in his career in a playoff game, per ESPN Stats & Info. He was blitzed 23 times, second-most in his playoff career. Shaquil Barrett had 7 pressures, matching his high with the Buccaneers. Rodgers went 0-of-4 and took 3 sacks on those plays.
I'm also sick of this lazy narrative that the Packers didn't capitalize on Brady turnovers. It's not just this game, it's every game you watch. The media guys looks at points of off turnovers but often don't provide context.
Yes. If you have a case like Aaron Jones' fumble where you get the ball at the opponents 8-yard line, that's a turnover that you should score a TD on.
After the Brady interceptions, the Packers got the ball at their own 32, 24, and 19. So they have to go the same distance (or more) they would have to go on a kickoff out of the end zone or with a marginally better return.
Yet somehow the narrative after the game is that the Packers lost because they didn't capitalize on turnovers. They didn't get short fields.
