Offensive line in 2014

The whiners OL never get hurt.

Find out what they do in the offseason fer kryst's sake.

After coming back from PUP, Tretter made it the rest of the year without getting injured.  In Green Bay, that counts as quite an accomplishment.

Tretter looks to have the POTENTIAL to eventually be better than EDS, but has virtually lost whole years development.  

So does he lose more development by being on IR or by being coached by Campen?

One telling item is that the Packers had money left over and tried to extend Shields and Raji before the business end-of-year. Not so with EDS.

A full 4 years with Campen and he should be out of this world.  

Again, it isn't specifically about Tretter.  It's about the futility of singing the praises of a average oline protecting a superstar QB with Cap'n Marshmallow in the middle.  Allowed sacks, constant scrambling, continued pressure, its been going on for years.  Rodgers and Lacy make that line better than they actually are.  Imagine having a oline that stands on their own.  What would Lacy and Rodgers be able to do then?  

Tretter's potential/skills are the reason he was drafted.  TT didn't go into the draft and pick a guy like Tretter because he believes Big Ern is the future.  Again, Tretter's intelligence, size and athleticism would be the fit this line needs to improve.  I have no faith in Campen taking players that need development and getting NFL quality players.  Those players and their skills have to be drafted.  What they get from Campen is more drill sergeant than teacher.

As a whole this seems to be the dysfunction of certain areas of the coaching staff, you have your mad scientist schemers and no coaches/subordinates fully capable of taking strategy and transitioning it into proper teaching.  

Yeah, not being a dope helps when you're working with those limitations. 

I have been a vocal EDS hater but I think we need to sign him if the price is right.  We don't know what we have in Tretter yet and we have no other interior line depth.  

Best case scenario, Tretter is all pro and EDS becomes your interior line backup.   Worst case scenario, we have the same avg center play that we had this year.

Tackle is obvious, Sherrod and Bulaga compete for starting RT.   The loser backs up both spots.   

Maybe we bring in a project from the draft for the 8th spot.

Agreed simply due to no depth.  He is the default.  He gets another participation ribbon.

Campen is a sack of potatoes.  I was being generous but I'll gladly continue and escalate this engagement.  

Rote hoop jumping isn't development.

They learn cut blocking techniques.

They don't get injured because they cause injuries.

Rookies that get injured early in the season, especially at OTAs or TC do indeed lose out on physical development, But they have more time than normal to learn the playbook, study film, and other mental development, so it shouldn't be a total loss of time.

Tretter is a typical example; Sherrod is an extreme one.

No problem signing EDS on the cheap, if he starts and the money goes elsewhere, I can live with it.  If Tretter beats him out, EDS is a cheap back up.  Either is a win.

If he is signed for anything even minorly substantial, I don't like it (unless it is another team and we get a comp pick out of the deal). 

I've long believed the hate toward Campen goes way too far - but some interesting points have been made here so I decided to take a look at something.

I think most people agree that the 49ers have one of the best OLs in the league right now.  Their starters this year were made up of three 1st round picks, one undrafted FA, and a veteran C signed after having already played 9 years in the league.  Every member of that group is in at least his 4th year. 

The Packers, on the other hand, played with three 4th round picks, and two undrafted FAs.

Here's the meat of it:

During the 9 years TT has been the GM in Green Bay, the Packers have taken just 4 offensive linemen in the first three rounds.  Bulaga has been excellent.  Sherrod's development time has been limited by injuries and the lockout, Colledge started at G for 5 years, and Spitz showed a lot of promise until injury derailed his career.

Of that group, only Colledge failed to develop in an expected way, but he has done no better in Arizona, and was hardly a complete disaster while with the Packers.

Looking at the five 4th round OL picks TT has made, Sitton is a star, Lang is very good, and Bahktiari is off to an amazing start.  Barbre was an utter failure, and Tretter hasn't gotten a chance yet.

In the later rounds, Giacomini and Meredith turned out okay, but not while they were on the Packers - though to be fair, Meredith was gone to fast for Campen to have a chance to really work with him.  Moll was an okay backup.  Newhouse was about the same - unfortunately he ended up having to start a bunch.

The other four players taken in the last 3 rounds did not pan out.

On a per-player basis, you would have to be pretty biased to say that Campen has done a poor job of developing players.  For players taken in the top 4 rounds, his track record is actually really good.  Better than most position groups over the same span - behind WR, but better than RB, DL, CB, and S (and LB too depending on how you feel about Hawk and Poppinga).  Too few QBs and TEs have been taken early to make much of a comparison there.

He has not done as well molding good players out of late round picks or undrafted FAs - where Barclay, Newhouse and EDS are probably his greatest success stories.  Not good, but no worse than what's been produced late at QB, RB, TE, and S.

I can understand disappointment with how the OL has preformed, but in terms of player development it's difficult to make an objective case against Campen.

I think you need to use some more "amazing" and "star" comments then actually compare what is happening on the field.  But maybe that's just your objectivity showing.

Or you could of course look at the overall argument laid out and how TT has changed up his drafting of oline as well.  Maybe I need to repeat it.  Scrubs that failed in Green Bay go to other programs and contribute, what gives?  

And don't think I don't believe TT isn't culpable in his drafting.  Either TT is below average in drafting oline and undervalues the positions or the coaching is failing.  Seeing TT's adjustment in drafting I'm leaning towards coaching as the weak link.

Maybe we could take your perspective and juxtapose it to Greene and LB corp?

What is the product on the field?  Is it Rodgers, Lacy?  What did that oline look like with Rodgers out?  Lacy bouncing off tackles behind the LOS?  

Anyone have a quote of an offensive lineman crediting Campen for a technique he taught or a drill he put together or even his general ability as a coach? 

I honestly can't remember it happening even once in all the time he's been here.  Doesn't make him a bad coach, but usually when a coach goes above and beyond there's a story that eventually comes out about his ability.  

I can remember Rodgers praising numerous coaches, I can remember receivers praising Bennett and Jimmy Smith. I can remember RBs praising Bennett and TEs giving props to McAdoo.  There's the famous one of Trgovac working with Green in the hotel when Green just joined the team.  There's Whitt and his weekly tests for the CB group.  There was Moss challenging Bishop to become great at practice and helping turn his career around.  Beightol used to get all kinds of praise from his linemen.  

Campen?  Years and years of crickets.   I'm not saying he should be let go, but I don't get the sense that he's a guy that gets the most out of his players.  He's a foot in your ass coach, loyal to whatever MM wants him to do while not causing friction, and a guy that does enough that MM won't ever replace him.       

"untie his shoes".

I struggle with the "either / or"  stuff given the large number of variables involved.

My hero, RT Guacamole is serviceable in Seattle, but it took him awhile and a change of scenery to get there.

EDS wasn't serviceable in GB or in Seattle, but he later came back to be serviceable in GB. Who will we indict based on his travels ?

Turns out he was partying a bit much and finally realized he needed to act like a Pro off the field...the same affliction that TJ Lang had early on.

That's really not a function of coaching or drafting, its just human nature; hence my disdain for these "either TT sucks or Campen sucks" proclamations.

Some ascend quickly, some ascend slowly and some not at all... and all of those scenarios can and do happen under the same coaches & front office.

Campen's message may be stale at this point; I remember Tauscher commenting about how he was tired of Beightols' act by the end despite how much he helped early on as Mark morphed from a 7th round rookie to starting NFL OT.

http://www.packers.com/team/co...4b-8aa0-e6b67c649639

Here's the puff piece from packers.com talking about Campen's accomplishments and I pulled out the info you were looking for:

" James Campen was selected as a team captain at every level of football."  

found another one

There’s a picture surfacing around that shows you smirking at Favre as you walk away from the hug with him after the game. What was that about?

 

"That was Brett and I embraced and then he made a funny comment about James Campen as we were separating. And I looked back and smirked about his comment about James Campen and they froze it. You can put any tag you want underneath that picture (laughing). I can tell you exactly what happened. People are still going to read into that." -jsonline

Henry, you seriously need to relax. I used "star" once to describe Sitton, and "amazing" once to describe the career opening of a 4th round pick forced to start as a rookie against some of the best pass rushers in the league. Neither statement is hyperbole.

And instead of reacting like I'm attacking your argument (which I wasn't), perhaps you could notice the half dozen times I specifically stated that I was looking only at individual player development.

But to your other points, I'm not really blaming TT for his drafting. There are only so many picks to go around. I'm just saying Campen could only work with what he had.

I think you're right about TT's draft adjustments, but it's a little too soon ( due in large part to injuries) to know how that will pan out.

As I've said in another thread, I'm not too impressed with Kevin Greene's record. Only Matthews, and maybe Neal this year, have developed - and Matthews arrived a playmaker. Though I'm not advocating kicking Greene to the curb either.

The product on the field this year suffered from losing Bulaga (which lower play at both tackle positions), and having a barely average center.

And I'll go one step further - to me the greatest weakness with Campen has been getting the individuals to play well as a unit.  IMO, the sum has been less than the parts. But I do recognize that a lot of that is probably due to the constant line shuffling. The starters have changed every year, and frequently during the year as well.

Basically, EDS is maxed out.  Some guys take longer, I get that, but EDS taking 4 years to be average is not a ringing endorsement for him or the coaching.  I truly believe that a better coach would get another gear out of most of the starters.  EDS is what he is, a good backup.

And there is never a single point of failure but you can see where the water is pooling at the low point after a very reasonable overall sample.  I believe exactly what Tit posted, he's a soldier.  His best traits may be the drill sergeant role but that does not and never will lead to development of a individual.  It is a base point.  Campen is a base point coach for the NFL.

The battle of the trenches is the game.  This team has been successful due to Rodgers and now Lacy.  A truly consistent oline would put this team on another level and help relieve the bleeding on defense as well, which is another animal of a discussion.

And as far as "objectivity", it doesn't exist.  Stats are used as PR/swing points for a argument so let's just admit that and when we start using all the stats in proper context then I'll put more weight in them.  We know what we see on the field and stats are merely one point of reference but hardly the whole argument.  

Pass the International Delight and let's share a moment.

Agreed. When I see other QBs with plenty of time in the pocket, I get jealous and dream about what the Pack would look like if Rodgers had he same...

And I will say that how TT drafts/values the oline may likely be the cap balancing strategy.  You understand what Rodgers can do and now what Lacy brings but if you're going to stick to that strategy coaching becomes even more important.  

Great post, Henry. 

If we had an offensive line ranked in the top third of the NFL (it doesn't even have to be on the level of the Niners, Patriots, etc), Rodgers and Lacy would be that much better. Hell, it makes the entire team better. How many positions on an NFL team can you say that about? If the offensive line is better, Aaron Rodgers is better protected from injury. With better protection, pass routes have more time to develop, meaning the passing efficiency is improved. The run blocking is better, meaning Lacy, Starks et all are finding more holes, and more frequently their first contact is not at the line of scrimmage, but into the linebackers. This means the running backs have more of a head of steam built up--their forward progress means more yardage after contact, and an improved chance of breaking a long run. And a more efficient offense means longer drives, and a better rested, more efficient defense. 

I think Ted's philosophy of drafting and developing is the best way to go, but just once in a while, I think spending a little money to address key areas is warranted. If I were Aaron Rodgers, who is fabulously wealthy now with his new contract and endorsement deals, I'd be willing to cut down my salary a couple million to address the center position. Because I honestly think if our main guys are healthy this year, with a stud center, our line can be an upper echelon group. 

TT follows the Wolf Way and that used to be a strategy that "under" valued guards.

We all know how much of Boris' bandwidth was spent lamenting the loss of Wahle and Riviera

GB has done very well to get 2 starting guards (and an LT out) of the 4th round. Now if they get a Center too ( Tretter) that'll be quite the OL haul from late in the 4th round

Came across this one on the changes in OL over the years and it talks about the need for better coaching and teaching now because they aren't getting it in the youth leagues. Most of what the bleacher report puts out is crapola, but this one is an interesting read and probably worth 7 minutes of your time

http://bleacherreport.com/arti...e-nfl-offensive-line

"A lot of old-school O-line coaches are rotating out of the league, and I think the lack of hitting (in practices and training camp) really hurts. Where are the one-on-one drills?  In our first 30 minutes of practice when I was playing, there were drills where you came off a dummy, stayed low, kept your feet wide and hit the other guy. I just watch these OTs today, and they just concentrate on locking up the guys they’re up against. There’s no real push off the ball. "  

Greg Koch, former Packer

The thing I don't understand about the idea Campen is a crappy coach is that if he is, this is a huge indictment of MM and TT.

If I were TT and knew Campen was a crappy coach, I'd have a sitdown with MM over it and let him know he has to go.  If I were MM and knew the same, I'd have fired him years ago.

How the hell don't they know?  Or if they know, what explains keeping him?

Mark this - I have no idea whether the guy is a decent coach or not.

Henry and Titmfatied answered that question earlier Phaedrus

Its not that Campen is a crappy coach its that he's "just a guy"

A cog in the machine, a good soldier. 

Oh, OK, Satori, thanks.

As for me, I would want a whole lot better than "just a guy" for o-line coach.  I would not be impressed with anyone OK with that.

Can we call him Paulie Walnuts?

Officially his new name in my book.

Here is Pro Football Focus with their year-end rankings of O lines

I think some will be surprised to see GB listed one spot below the 9ers OL despite not having a similar pedigree. PFF is just one isolated slice of the whole pie, but it does offer some insight & encouragement for the future

https://www.profootballfocus.c...ive-line-rankings/3/

It makes me wonder why then it seems CK has so much more time back in the pocket than AR does.  At least last weekend. 

I think that was two things: their DBs being much better at jamming our WRs at the line and more uniquely to CK, defenses are less aggressive in rushing him because unless you are really good and disciplined about containing him, he can take off if the pocket breaks down.  AR is more dangerous throwing from outside the pocket and on the move than any other Q in the game but he isn't as big a threat to run much beyond the LOS.

quote:

It makes me wonder why then it seems CK has so much more time back in the pocket than AR does.

Because you watch him against the Packers pass rush.

Justin Smith is a load.

I actually watched some of the line play after I DVRd some of the games. I was one of EDS' biggest critics. Actually, he played pretty well the 2nd half of the season. It's good to have a center that can pull, which isn't easy. But he is limited. I don't know what Tretter brings, but if it's athleticism with push, that's what we need.

EDS gets stymied too many times on power runs. But playing center he also calls the O'Line adjustments, which can't be overlooked. TJ Lang is the most questionable O'Lineman we have, imo. I don't get the love for him. He plays a lot on his side of the LOS,