Packer Organization Not Getting Much Love From The National Guys

No question Tampa has made some nice moves especially on defense.

The JPP move was brilliant.  Shaq Barrett holy crap.  Nice thinking there Denver.  Devin White is a stud.   David was an established guy already and very good.  The young secondary looks decent and Winfield Jr. didn’t even play.   Point being, that defense isn’t going anywhere.  Maybe Suh moves on who knows?

It’s no secret I wanted Jonathan Taylor.  He’s a complete back.   More physical and stronger than Jones, and faster and more elusive than Jamaal Williams.  Maybe Dillon becomes their feature back but his running style doesn’t usually result in long careers.

@michiganjoe posted:

The players and media will be quick to blame Brian Gutekunst for the failings of the NFC Championship Game, but Green Bay’s best and highest-paid players didn’t play well enough. That’s what cost them.

The bottom line. Fair to question Gutey's last draft strategy, but that's not what cost them the game.

Disagree, and disagree with some aspects of the article.

Players are never perfect. Adams should have caught the one ball, but overall he was a net positive. Rodgers gets blamed for losing 7 points because he threw an interception set up by a missed holding call? How about this guy (who seems to be wanting to get on Gutey's good side or maintain access) write something like this?

This captures reality more than crapping on D. Adams for dropping one catch he usually makes and on Rodgers for throwing an interception where the DB was in  position to make the play because he grabbed the receiver and used him as leverage to pull himself in front of the ball.

Here's my version of what someone should write that gives some benefit of the doubt to what Gutey's thought process probably was.

===========================================================

The key play of the game was the final play of the first half. Tampa Bay was able to steal 7 points because Will Redmond, a backup DB who was considered a terrible 3rd-round draft pick bust in SF and also waived by the Chiefs before coming to Green Bay in 2018, dropped an easy interception earlier in the drive. Then, Kevin King who was playing injured because he was considered to be better even when he was limited by a back injury than another top backup DB, Josh Jackson, got toasted on a go route. Both Jackson and Redmond have been with the Packers for several years.

Throughout the course of the game, the Smith brothers could have made more plays, but were hampered (especially Z. Smith) by the fact that Gutey decided to go into another season with Dean Lowry as a starter taking up 7 million in cap space (almost as much as the Bucs spent on N. Suh).

On another key play, a Packers long-time backup WR, St. Brown, dropped a 2 point conversion that hit him in both hands. The ball was slightly tipped, but still should have been a completion.

In all these situations, the Packers were hampered by the performance of long-time key backups who have struggled throughout their careers in Green Bay and Redmond, Josh Jackson, Lowry, and St. Brown are all likely to be out of the league or in other uniforms next season.

Instead of prioritizing upgrading the depth at these positions this offseason, Gutekunst decided to plan for the future and spent his premium draft picks to select future replacements for Aaron Rodgers, Aaron Jones, and his backup TE, Mercedes Lewis. To manage an impending salary cap crunch, Gutekunst also decided not to spend much in the 2020 free-agent market. Gutekunt's thinking was that the Packers were unlikely to improve dramatically over the previous year where, although they did make the NFC title game, they were thoroughly outclassed by the 49ers. He did not anticipate the significantly improved performances of Aaron Rodgers, Robert Tonyan, and (at least at times) Valdez-Scantling that turned this team into a legitimate Super Bowl threat. Gutekunst made some judgement calls that made sense in the moment, but which turned out to cost the Packers a chance to optimize a roster that lost in an NFC title game where if any one of a half-dozen or so plays would have been made, the outcome would likely have been in Green Bay's favor.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

The key play of the game was the final play of the first half.

Play's not even possible without AR making a poor decision and forcing the ball into coverage.

@michiganjoe posted:

Play's not even possible without AR making a poor decision and forcing the ball into coverage.

Did you watch the play? The DB grabbed Lazard's shoulder pads and used that leverage to pull himself in front of him. It was almost as obvious a holding call as the King call at the end. Also, if Rodgers doesn't throw balls into that type of coverage he'd barely ever throw to anyone but Adams or MVS. Lazard doesn't get separation. He relies on his frame to block guys out and make contested catches. If he's not held, he probably gets in front of the DB by coming back to the ball.

AR was one of the main reasons they were in that game. When he's played lousy previously, I've noted it. He was terrible in the regular-season game in Tampa this year. It ranks as one of his 5 worst games.

If you want to do the blame game on that how about MLF leaving Turner on an island with JPP to get lit up for much of the day (which set up the 8 yard sack on 1st down to set up 2nd and 18). At that point, why not run clock or force a TB timeout by running the ball on an obvious passing down?

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Disagree, and disagree with some aspects of the article.

Players are never perfect. Adams should have caught the one ball, but overall he was a net positive. Rodgers gets blamed for losing 7 points because he threw an interception set up by a missed holding call? How about this guy (who seems to be wanting to get on Gutey's good side or maintain access) write something like this?

This captures reality more than crapping on D. Adams for dropping one catch he usually makes and on Rodgers for throwing an interception where the DB was in  position to make the play because he grabbed the receiver and used him as leverage to pull himself in front of the ball.

Here's my version of what someone should write that gives some benefit of the doubt to what Gutey's thought process probably was.

===========================================================

The key play of the game was the final play of the first half. Tampa Bay was able to steal 7 points because Will Redmond, a backup DB who was considered a terrible 3rd-round draft pick bust in SF and also waived by the Chiefs before coming to Green Bay in 2018, dropped an easy interception earlier in the drive. Then, Kevin King who was playing injured because he was considered to be better even when he was limited by a back injury than another top backup DB, Josh Jackson, got toasted on a go route. Both Jackson and Redmond have been with the Packers for several years.

Throughout the course of the game, the Smith brothers could have made more plays, but were hampered (especially Z. Smith) by the fact that Gutey decided to go into another season with Dean Lowry as a starter taking up 7 million in cap space (almost as much as the Bucs spent on N. Suh).

On another key play, a Packers long-time backup WR, St. Brown, dropped a 2 point conversion that hit him in both hands. The ball was slightly tipped, but still should have been a completion.

In all these situations, the Packers were hampered by the performance of long-time key backups who have struggled throughout their careers in Green Bay and Redmond, Josh Jackson, Lowry, and St. Brown are all likely to be out of the league or in other uniforms next season.

Instead of prioritizing upgrading the depth at these positions this offseason, Gutekunst decided to plan for the future and spent his premium draft picks to select future replacements for Aaron Rodgers, Aaron Jones, and his backup TE, Mercedes Lewis. To manage an impending salary cap crunch, Gutekunst also decided not to spend much in the 2020 free-agent market. Gutekunt's thinking was that the Packers were unlikely to improve dramatically over the previous year where, although they did make the NFC title game, they were thoroughly outclassed by the 49ers. He did not anticipate the significantly improved performances of Aaron Rodgers, Robert Tonyan, and (at least at times) Valdez-Scantling that turned this team into a legitimate Super Bowl threat. Gutekunst made some judgement calls that made sense in the moment, but which turned out to cost the Packers a chance to optimize a roster that lost in an NFC title game where if any one of a half-dozen or so plays would have been made, the outcome would likely have been in Green Bay's favor.

Such a quality, quality post.

Really well thought out and compelling.

It is really hard to discern what Gute's overarching approach to roster building is at this point - is he trying to win a SB with Aaron or preparing for his departure?

Or, is he tryin (and failing) to do both?

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Did you watch the play?

Yes, Lazard was held on the play but that doesn't justify the poor decision.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Featured snippet from the web

On March 22, 2018, the Giants traded Pierre-Paul to the Buccaneers for a third-round pick (No. 69) in the 2018 NFL Draft, and swapped fourth-round picks, dropping from No. 102 in the fourth round to No. 108

Nice

I posited this very question about half way through the season.  I think he's trying to do both rather than committing to one lane.  In the last quarter of the season (especially after Dillon's TEN game) and up until yesterday at about 3:30PM, it looked like he was coming up roses on both.

To add to the Do You Believe In Love question; we've seen how QB friendly MLF's offense is when it's being run correctly.  AR took it into overdrive this season with his smarts and arm talent but I can see how even an average QB could find success throwing to guys wide open and handing off to a strong running game.  If not for AR's contract, they could indeed build more support around Love in a trade.  Bolster the OL and D and you could look like SF did last year.

Wait.  Let me think about that a little more.

Edit: as long as Love is better than Garrapolo.

@Grave Digger posted:

Why? People bagged on Rodgers harder than they did on Love prior to the draft. He was picked apart. Rodgers was a Tedford QB who was doomed to be David Carr or Akili Smith. He was criticized immediately on stepping foot in GB. Early on it was that he didn't look great in practice, then he got hurt a couple times, but always something people didn't like. Rodgers came from a Pac10 school, won more, but also had more talent around him and a better coach. IF Love turns out to even be an above average QB for the next 8 years is anyone really going to look back and wish we had gone all in in 2020? Do they do that about 2005? No.

They will forget how heavily criticized he was just like they forgot how much Rodgers was bashed. Rodgers went from being a loser Tedford player who was robbing Favre of a start player when he was drafted in round one to a player who was a no-brainer for Ted Thompson when he started to play.

Let's not forget that there was a large group of Packers fans hoping Rodgers would get traded so they could keep their beloved Far Vre. Hell, there were multiple rumors out there that Rodgers was being shopped.

Year one as a starter, Rodgers dares to get hurt on a football field. I heard so many Packers fans almost gloat.

"See, I told you he wasn't tough enough".

Yeah, how unusual. Getting hurt on a football field. The fact that he didn't miss a game didn't seem to mean much.

As recently as 2 years ago my dental hygienist informed me that they liked Favre way better than Rodgers, because Rodger "lacked passion".

Fuck these guys. I'm taking screen shots of all your comments and using them against you in the future.

That sounds like a great use of your time.

#FYG

@Tschmack posted:

I’m not sure this can be fixed without a trade.  

Much like Brett had it with TT for not adding players Aaron is drifting that way with Gute.  Then there’s the MLF issue and we all know how sensitive 12 can get if he feels disrespected.  It sounds silly, but I think Rodgers lost all faith in MLF after the FG play.  Not sure that relationship can be repaired.  

Bullshit and comparing this to fuckin favre is bullshit too. That fucker was crying retirement every year for 5 years and then fucking quit in the NFC championship because he was cold. FF!!!!!!!

Oh no, not that!

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

If you want to do the blame game on that how about MLF leaving Turner on an island with JPP to get lit up for much of the day (which set up the 8 yard sack on 1st down to set up 2nd and 18). At that point, why not run clock or force a TB timeout by running the ball on an obvious passing down?

This was a big problem.

@GBFanForLife posted:

Bullshit and comparing this to fuckin favre is bullshit too. That fucker was crying retirement every year for 5 years and then fucking quit in the NFC championship because he was cold. FF!!!!!!!

September 2015. Rodgers strongly mentions his goal is to play until at least the 2023 season.

SI article on Aaron Rodgers' commitment to nutrition and workouts which quotes him as saying "I want to play into my 40s"

https://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09...ron-rodgers-play-40s

2003. Brett Favre. Age 33, two years before they draft AR.

Favre won't commit to playing more than another season. Says we will just "have to see how it goes." Favre also wasn't exactly known for his commitment to nutrition, working out, and clean living which are the types of things that extend careers.

https://journaltimes.com/news/...2c-786fc21fe0d4.html

@Goalline posted:

Fuck these guys. I'm taking screen shots of all your comments and using them against you in the future.

Mo Broo er Goalline takin names and kickin ass

@Henry posted:

My problem is he picked Jordan Love and burned a 4th to do it.  That's it.  I would've been happy with a DT and Oline depth in 4th or maybe, just maybe, a ILB that wasn't constantly hurt.

They traded UP. If they stayed put at #30, who would you have taken? Gladney?

https://www.pro-football-refer...years/2020/draft.htm

Rex Ryan is still talking shit that we didn’t draft Jefferson. Dumbass hindsight shittalker apparently doesn’t realize Jefferson went 7 spots ahead of our draft spot.

@Boris

Burning a 4th is insinuating they moved up.

Yep, anybody but Love.

Hitler?

All you need is love...

Yes, Hitler apparently had good hip swivel.

(Love the new avatar, Henry!) 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/26/mark-murphy-were-not-idiots-aaron-rodgers-will-be-back/

Murph getting a little defensive?

Why would anyone in their right minds possibly think that using 1st and 4th round picks on a QB who might never play for the team in a year in which the QB won the MVP and the roster had obvious holes that could have used 1st and 4th round talent would make the Packer GM/front office look like idiots?

Why would anyone in their right minds possibly think that trading a 1st round pick for a 3rd string, former 2nd round pick, QB who was nothing more than a novelty (throwing pre-game passes into the upper level of the stadium) for his coach, would make the Packer GM/front office look like idiots?

When he had 1/2 his guts missing.

You talkin bout the 2007 NFCC again?

@Timmy! posted:

Also, this era of fantasy football-think and the desire for instant gratification plays a role, especially as it relates to fans and media. Everybody always has an opinion, and will express and/or argue them vehemently, but the bottom line is opinions are like... well, you know the rest.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

@michiganjoe posted:

The players and media will be quick to blame Brian Gutekunst for the failings of the NFC Championship Game, but Green Bay’s best and highest-paid players didn’t play well enough. That’s what cost them.

The bottom line. Fair to question Gutey's last draft strategy, but that's not what cost them the game.

Exactly...

@H5 posted:

Why would anyone in their right minds possibly think that trading a 1st round pick for a 3rd string, former 2nd round pick, QB who was nothing more than a novelty (throwing pre-game passes into the upper level of the stadium) for his coach, would make the Packer GM/front office look like idiots?

There were some "slight" differences in the situations.

The 1992 Packers had a returning starting QB that had torn his rotator cuff in 1990, been benched the previous year, and had a career QB rating of 73.5. He had one great year, but after that had thrown 13 TDs against 20 interceptions in 16 starts. We loved him for 1989, but it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to be a HOFer. They traded away a first-round pick, but they selected the following additional players in that draft: Buckley, Robert Brooks, Edgar Bennett, and Mark Chmura. Oh, and the previous year they were 4-12 and fired their head coach. Their returning QB was someone they knew they needed to replace quickly if they were going to win. His arm was never the same after the torn rotation cuff.

The 2020 Packers had a starting QB who over the previous two years had thrown 51 TDs against 6 interceptions. The previous year they were 13-3 and played in the NFC title game despite having inexperienced WRs (who had caught less than a couple of dozen passes cumulatively total before that year) outside of D. Adams who only played 12 games. Their returning QB was a first-ballot HOFer who they thought was descending. They were wrong.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

In all these situations, the Packers were hampered by the performance of long-time key backups who have struggled throughout their careers in Green Bay and Redmond, Josh Jackson, Lowry, and St. Brown are all likely to be out of the league or in other uniforms next season.

Instead of prioritizing upgrading the depth at these positions this offseason, Gutekunst decided to plan for the future and spent his premium draft picks to select future replacements for Aaron Rodgers, Aaron Jones, and his backup TE, Mercedes Lewis. To manage an impending salary cap crunch, Gutekunst also decided not to spend much in the 2020 free-agent market. Gutekunt's thinking was that the Packers were unlikely to improve dramatically over the previous year where, although they did make the NFC title game, they were thoroughly outclassed by the 49ers. He did not anticipate the significantly improved performances of Aaron Rodgers, Robert Tonyan, and (at least at times) Valdez-Scantling that turned this team into a legitimate Super Bowl threat. Gutekunst made some judgement calls that made sense in the moment, but which turned out to cost the Packers a chance to optimize a roster that lost in an NFC title game where if any one of a half-dozen or so plays would have been made, the outcome would likely have been in Green Bay's favor.

This “they didn’t draft this guy” horse has been beaten to death, and I just think it’s a lazy argument. The Packers didn’t lose a football game because they didn’t draft a MLB. They lost because guys that are blue chip players made critical, unthinkable mistakes. Your 3 biggest weapons blew game changing plays- Rodgers throwing to Marcedes Lewis instead of the Adams on the 12 men play was a mistake. Adams dropping a sure TD was a mistake. Jones fumbling the ball was a mistake. Mistakes cost games. Not decisions on personnel made 6 months before the game. They got there, had a really chance to win... the draft history can’t impact the game on Sunday. That just not how football works.

And it comes down to coaching. The great coaches drill the details, the fundamentals, until the players hate them for it. Bellichik, Lombardi, Parcells, Walsh- the greatest football minds the game has ever seen all have that one common denominator- obsession over small details. That discipline matters- it’s what turns mat final players into heroes, and great players into Superstars on the biggest stage. It’s what made the Packers of the 60s the greatest dynasty the game ever saw.

It’s not a birthright to get to and win a Super Bowl on talent. It comes from a total obsession towards excellence, starting with the coach and down to the 55th man. You practice a move or a play or a catch 1000 times a day to ensure you don’t drop the one that matters. Every time the Packers have been on the cusp of something truly special- 2011, 2014, 2016, 2020- their lack of focus and discipline cost them. That’s coaching.

@Music City posted:

This “they didn’t draft this guy” horse has been beaten to death, and I just think it’s a lazy argument. The Packers didn’t lose a football game because they didn’t draft a MLB. They lost because guys that are blue chip players made critical, unthinkable mistakes. Your 3 biggest weapons blew game changing plays- Rodgers throwing to Marcedes Lewis instead of the Adams on the 12 men play was a mistake. Adams dropping a sure TD was a mistake. Jones fumbling the ball was a mistake. Rodgers not running it for what was probably a sure TD on third down was a mistake.

FTFY.

Fandame as usual, is correct.

That may or may not have worked and if it did there is no assurance that they win the game but throwing a grass cutter to a smothered Adams had no chance.

@Music City posted:

This “they didn’t draft this guy” horse has been beaten to death, and I just think it’s a lazy argument. The Packers didn’t lose a football game because they didn’t draft a MLB. They lost because guys that are blue chip players made critical, unthinkable mistakes. Your 3 biggest weapons blew game changing plays- Rodgers throwing to Marcedes Lewis instead of the Adams on the 12 men play was a mistake. Adams dropping a sure TD was a mistake. Jones fumbling the ball was a mistake. Mistakes cost games. Not decisions on personnel made 6 months before the game. They got there, had a really chance to win... the draft history can’t impact the game on Sunday. That just not how football works.

And it comes down to coaching.

Bucs made their share of mistakes too.  Brady threw 3 picks in the second half alone.  Evans had balls bounce off his hands, so did Godwin.  AR thoroughly outplayed Brady.  But the Bucs have more talent almost everywhere else and that's why they were able to overcome their mistakes.  You get more talent through FA and the draft.

If you want just one shining example, look no further than KK.  His blown TD could have been a mental error, could have been from playing with a bad back, could have been Pettine's call.  Either way there was nobody else on the roster they trusted to put out there to replace him.  Bucs lost Winfield just before kickoff and they didn't seem to miss a beat.  That's the result of TB either having better talent in the secondary or GB not having enough talent at WR to take advantage.  Or both.

Either way, Guted could have picked a DL, DB or WR in RD1,RD2 or RD3 that could have tipped things our way sunday.  We were close enough for one player (or two or three!) to have made the difference.

@Fandame posted:

FTFY.

It’s possible... but I don’t know if Rodgers was interested in trying to out-run Suh. That may have been Rodgers recognizing that if Suh catches him, he’s going to try to hurt him.

@DH13 posted:

Bucs made their share of mistakes too.  Brady threw 3 picks in the second half alone.  Evans had balls bounce off his hands, so did Godwin.  AR thoroughly outplayed Brady.  But the Bucs have more talent almost everywhere else and that's why they were able to overcome their mistakes.  You get more talent through FA and the draft.

I am looking at things more simplistically, I think.

The talent is a constant (more or less) from the start of the season, injuries notwithstanding. AR did thoroughly outplay Brady, definitely agree on that. Your game plan then caters to your talent. The other team has weaknesses, and you try to exploit them. They’re doing that, too.

But here’s where I differentiate- talent can cover up mistakes or eliminate them, sure- but mistakes by your blue chip players are how you lose football games, especially  when you have the better team, better game plan, and better circumstances. That’s one football game. You got there because those guys played a huge role. They failed in the one game.

Sunday was a case where 3 players who are expected to expected to help win games made critical mistakes. It’s one thing that Jones was limited productively, the killer was the fumble. That’s an avoidable mistake that really should not have happened. Adams’ drop cost them critical points in a close game. And Rodgers... missing a wide open receiver and throwing into coverage instead to me is more egregious than run or not run for the TD, but that’s certainly debatable.

The Packers have lost 4 NFCC games since their improbable SB run in 2010. 2 they were clearly overmatched, and 2 they failed to play mistake-free football, costing them the chance to add 2 more SB trophies to the case. They were good enough to win it all with both the 2014 and 2020 teams.

As Uncle Burnsie once said....big knockers got to knock.

The man was a modern day Walt Whitman.

@Music City posted:

I am looking at things more simplistically, I think.

But here’s where I differentiate- talent can cover up mistakes or eliminate them, sure- but mistakes by your blue chip players are how you lose football games, especially  when you have the better team, better game plan, and better circumstances. That’s one football game. You got there because those guys played a huge role. They failed in the one game.

Sunday was a case where 3 players who are expected to expected to help win games made critical mistakes. It’s one thing that Jones was limited productively, the killer was the fumble. That’s an avoidable mistake that really should not have happened. Adams’ drop cost them critical points in a close game. And Rodgers... missing a wide open receiver and throwing into coverage instead to me is more egregious than run or not run for the TD, but that’s certainly debatable.

I'm guessing that if they had more talent on offense, that talent could have helped to overcome the big 3's mistakes.  TB's offense overcame Brady's 3 INT's and his WR's drops.  They're better at TE and WR, OL might be a push when you consider how seldom Brady faces pressure.  We've all been discussing the WR position all damn season.  Sure the talent got them there but it clearly wasn't enough.  They played the 27th? easiest schedule this year and rang up the cash register doing it.

Those guys were good enough against almost everybody but TB.  And guess who they had to beat to get to the SB.  The consensus among the team, fans and much of the media before the game was that the WK06 was an "anomaly".  Nope.  No it wasn't.  It was exactly what it was.  Out schemed/coached and out played.  Would a legit #2 WR have helped in the red zone?  I don't know how he wouldn't have.