Bird in the hand...I need to see the bird in the bush before I jettison Mike.
I think you meant turd in the hand, which really works as a juxtaposition to that adage.
Henry posted:If Ray Rhodes is the benchmark then MM should've been fired immediately following the last game. Do you think they would've went 7-9 without Rodgers first few games? No, they wouldn't. Maybe we can go after Coughlin or how about Jeff Fischer? Let's keep making excuse and recycling coaches.
The point is there are HC's even a franchise QB in his prime can't overcome. MM is NOT one of those coaches. Tom Coughlin has 2 rings and has turned around the Jags into a contender even though he hired a HC that failed elsewhere. How did he do that? He didn't force scrap heap FA's and UDFA's on his coaching staff as starters.
Do I think they would've went 7-9 without Rodgers first few games? No. There isn't a team in the league, that isn't run by Belichick, that makes the playoffs without their franchise QB. That's a big fat no duh. Look how miraculously the 49ers, Rams, and Texans started improving once their franchise QB actually either started playing or started playing well. I think our season would have gone a lot different though if TT had ponied up with a starting CB, a starting S, and some OL depth...we likely could have beaten Pittsburgh, Carolina, and possibly even New Orleans if we had defensive talent in place to keep up.
Hundley can't throw receivers open, haven't seen Kizer do that either. If your QB needs receivers running free every play, you don't have a QB you can win with - teams w/#1 defenses excluded.
McCarthy's stubbornness, in my opinion, comes from his executive mindset. Getting rid of his "guys" is an admission of failure. Some leaders can be successful with this limitation in their skillset, most cannot as it always comes back around.
Henry posted:GrainBelt66 posted:Henry posted:Oh, and let me add this bee to the bonnet. If Rodgers got upset about losing Van Pelt and has constantly said he endorses MM's playcalling, do you think that wouldn't have an impact of if MM was fired or not? So how do you unseat a guy who hangs onto a turd like Capers if your HOF QB is going to get pissed off with an upcoming contract on the horizon? Why is MM still here?
And no, it's not the entire reason. TT was too soft as well but that's pretty solid reason to put off the decision
Murphy literally had to dismantle the organizational structure which existed under Harlan and there's no knowing why Gee Your Hair Smells Terrific actually landed the GM spot. I'm curious as to how much power he will wield.
So add that to the chicken/egg grabass of TT failing The Wizard and Super OC being stubborn and blah, blah, blah, blah. Go ahead and tell me Rodgers, a hardcore competitor with more than a few brains and opinions, didn't play into the entire equation. Oh yeah, MM is still here.
Game day bucket go boom.
I do not disagree with you, but, who, in your mind is out there to replace him?
This is stupid question and always has been and let me tell you why. If this mentality was held by NFL teams there would be nothing but recycled coaches throughout the league instead of half of the league.
Gee, maybe we could luck into another overrated OC with management issues. Philbin is sitting right there, same thing as the other Siamese OC.
Yeah, they can do better.
Would Philbin not be recycled?
For me there are 3 coaches I could see having great success. BB, Pederson, and maybe Gruden (Oakland), not his f-ed up brother or whatever in DC.
McCarthy is a more than competent head coach, but sometimes you have to take a chance at finding someone better, especially when a team with AR at QB hasn't been to the SB in 7 seasons.
Hungry5 posted:Hundley can't throw receivers open, haven't seen Kizer do that either. If your QB needs receivers running free every play, you don't have a QB you can win with - teams w/#1 defenses excluded.
McCarthy's stubbornness, in my opinion, comes from his executive mindset. Getting rid of his "guys" is an admission of failure. Some leaders can be successful with this limitation in their skillset, most cannot is it always comes back around.
Maybe it's stubbornness, but I tend to think, in this instance, that it's pragmatism. Based on how the roster has filled out at other positions, I'm guessing even if he decides Hundley isn't the guy he doesn't have faith he's going to get a better option. TT wouldn't have signed Case Keenum, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Josh McCown or any other vet or traded for Jacoby Brissett or another young player to be the backup. Best he would have gotten was another Seneca Wallace or Vince Young or stick with Joe Callahan/Taysom Hill. The devil you know is likely why Hundley lasted as long as he did.
heyward posted:McCarthy is a more than competent head coach, but sometimes you have to take a chance at finding someone better, especially when a team with AR at QB hasn't been to the SB in 7 seasons.
Isn't that a TT or Murphy failing though?
heyward posted:Mr. Magoo would win with AR at QB.
I can't see that happening.
heyward posted:McCarthy is a more than competent head coach, but sometimes you have to take a chance at finding someone better, especially when a team with AR at QB hasn't been to the SB in 7 seasons.
Exactly. See: Andy Reid. And Andy Reid has gone onto a fresh start. Good for him.
We can take all the arguments of merit/failure and stick 'em in a sock. The question is does this look like a healthy organization with MM in it? Murphy removed TT and Capers (yes, he indirectly did. Don't say otherwise) but head turd is still there. He's past his due date. He needs a refurb. Someone needs to flip his philosophy. Drop the tranny, put in a new engine or at least bondo the POS and paint it neon green.
Keeping MM around is like putting a Ferrari engine in a Pinto.
Grave Digger posted:heyward posted:McCarthy is a more than competent head coach, but sometimes you have to take a chance at finding someone better, especially when a team with AR at QB hasn't been to the SB in 7 seasons.
Isn't that a TT or Murphy failing though?
What? Didn't you just get done telling us super coach is super? Maybe it's Rodgers saving his bacon and getting every scrub OC a head coaching job somewhere else only to **** the bed.
Rodgers and whatever Pettine can deliver is the heart of this team. Siamese OCs can work the corner with Rodgers.
Henry posted:Exactly. See: Andy Reid. And Andy Reid has gone onto a fresh start. Good for him.
We can take all the arguments of merit/failure and stick 'em in a sock. The question is does this look like a healthy organization with MM in it? Murphy removed TT and Capers (yes, he indirectly did. Don't say otherwise) but head turd is still there. He's past his due date. He needs a refurb. Someone needs to flip his philosophy. Drop the tranny, put in a new engine or at least bondo the POS and paint it neon green.
Keeping MM around is like putting a Ferrari engine in a Pinto.
Didn't the Eagles fire Andy Reid only to replace him with an abysmal HC who was the hottest candidate at the time? Same for the Giants with Tom Coughlin. I think a better example would be the Ravens firing Brian Billick to bring in John Harbaugh.
Woohoooo! Chip Kelly was HOT too! Man he was sizzling. 
Grave Digger posted:Henry posted:Exactly. See: Andy Reid. And Andy Reid has gone onto a fresh start. Good for him.
We can take all the arguments of merit/failure and stick 'em in a sock. The question is does this look like a healthy organization with MM in it? Murphy removed TT and Capers (yes, he indirectly did. Don't say otherwise) but head turd is still there. He's past his due date. He needs a refurb. Someone needs to flip his philosophy. Drop the tranny, put in a new engine or at least bondo the POS and paint it neon green.
Keeping MM around is like putting a Ferrari engine in a Pinto.
Didn't the Eagles fire Andy Reid only to replace him with an abysmal HC who was the hottest candidate at the time? Same for the Giants with Tom Coughlin. I think a better example would be the Ravens firing Brian Billick to bring in John Harbaugh.
So what? Stick with the same broken down **** that hasn't produced with a superstar QB and looks like total **** without him? Sounds like a plan. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And I was talking about Reid, not his replacement (edit: eh, not really but the point remains)
The moral of the story is never do anything ever because it's scary. You sure you're not a conservative?
In reality, it's doesn't matter because he'll get a pass with Rodgers, the guy he didn't want to draft.
I'm not against finding a better option, but McCarthy has 3 losing season in 12 years with a .633 winning %, double digit playoff wins, and a SB though. That sh*t does not happen by accident or solely because of the QB. If you think rolling the dice on a young upstart like Kyle Shannahan or Shawn McVay is the direction we should go in, I can accept that. If you're telling the replacement should be a veteran coach, show me that veteran coach who would be an improvement, who can boast that kind of resume. Who is a proven coach, not named Belichick, that can touch his resume? Mike Tomlin is the only one with a championship and a better winning %, Sean Payton and John Harbaugh have had lower lows than McCarthy, and Doug Pederson. MM is 1 of 7 active coaches in the NFL that have a championship as a HC. He's a winner.
So it happens with good drafting and team building? Which one is it?
I'm still trying to comprehend how living on past laurels (with good team development from a horse**** GM because it's not all Rodgers) is a legitimate argument?
Summary: The whole thing broke down, let's keep the head turd.
Rodgers new nickname is the Turd Polisher.
GrainBelt66 posted:
Would Philbin not be recycled?
For me there are 3 coaches I could see having great success. BB, Pederson, and maybe Gruden (Oakland), not his f-ed up brother or whatever in DC.
The Philbin thing was a joke, showing MM and Philbin are cut from the same fail cloth.
Gruden inherits teams and Pedersen hasn't been around long enough and isn't saddled with a QB with a salary. Sounds familiar.
Winning in the regular season with a future 1st ballot HOF is the easy part. Doing it without a top tier QB doesnt happen - excluding teams w/#1 defenses.
Taking that HOF QB and winning it all requires a snippet of luck. Just does...
Not refuting that. The simple reason MM needs to go is he didn't just kind of fail or struggle without Rodgers, he ****ing sucked hard along with the whole apparatus he setup. Like I said, he's a good OC and they'll be fine with Rodgers but this greatest coach schtick is complete fiction.
Henry posted:So it happens with good drafting and team building? Which one is it?
I'm still trying to comprehend how living on past laurels (with good team development from a horse**** GM because it's not all Rodgers) is a legitimate argument?
Summary: The whole thing broke down, let's keep the head turd.
Rodgers new nickname is the Turd Polisher.
How do championships happen? GM provides a deep talented roster, HC runs a quality program, all players execute well especially the franchise QB, and a lot of luck.
Grave Digger posted:Henry posted:So it happens with good drafting and team building? Which one is it?
I'm still trying to comprehend how living on past laurels (with good team development from a horse**** GM because it's not all Rodgers) is a legitimate argument?
Summary: The whole thing broke down, let's keep the head turd.
Rodgers new nickname is the Turd Polisher.
How do championships happen? GM provides a deep talented roster, HC runs a quality program, all players execute well especially the franchise QB, and a lot of luck.
Can you elaborate on HC running a quality program?
FLPACKER posted:Timmy! posted:My father played against him when he barnstormed the country back in the 1950s
I played against him in the 1970s. 😀
1. Coach players not to get stupid penalties and then make it happen.
2. Instruct players to stay within the scheme. Don't go rogue.
3. Ensure position coaches are following what the coordinator wants.
1. HC watches every game film alone and make his own notes and assessments.
2. HC has the coordinators have their assistants provide a grade by position based on performance and assignment after watching film.
3. Coordinators combine film notes with the assistants. Report to HC.
4. HC compares this with his notes.
Cant be on the same page if everyone’s reading a different book.
Coordinator or assistant that’s reading Dr Suess while everyone else sees Tolstoy is going to out themselves in short order.
Unless the HC is reading Green Eggs n Ham......
Henry posted:So it happens with good drafting and team building? Which one is it?
The answer is all of the above. You can have a great coach, but a **** personnel department and it all goes down. Then you can take a great coach and give him personnel, and you get Holmgren.
For several years, the Packers have been a contender. Winning a SB is not a right just because Rodgers is a great (maybe the greatest) QB. He has made McCarthy look good, but it’s his program, and he’s done it with Favre- they make each other look good. Maybe he’s not Bellichik, but I don’t think it’s fair to point to that as the only standard.
McCarthy protects his guys- so does every coach worth a ****. He made a mistake holding onto Capers. I feel pretty strongly that the folks on his staff have the utmost respect for McCarthy. Now that a new decision maker presides over personnel and a fresh approach to defense is on board, he has the tools he needs to lead his team to success.
As best as I can decipher:
Mike is better than Holmgren. Rodgers has made Mike look good. Mike did it with Favre. Mike isn’t Belichick.
Every coach worth a **** protects guys but Mike made a mistake with Dom and everyone on the staff respects him for it.
Mikes been given new deployment orders.
That’s all I got out of that.
Mike’s on a 1 year prove-it deal, what type of season warrants an extension? SB only? We know Hank’s answer: nothing.
Best answered in February 2019. We’ll all have our answer then.
GrainBelt66 posted:Henry posted:Oh, and let me add this bee to the bonnet. If Rodgers got upset about losing Van Pelt and has constantly said he endorses MM's playcalling, do you think that wouldn't have an impact of if MM was fired or not? So how do you unseat a guy who hangs onto a turd like Capers if your HOF QB is going to get pissed off with an upcoming contract on the horizon? Why is MM still here?
And no, it's not the entire reason. TT was too soft as well but that's pretty solid reason to put off the decision
Murphy literally had to dismantle the organizational structure which existed under Harlan and there's no knowing why Gee Your Hair Smells Terrific actually landed the GM spot. I'm curious as to how much power he will wield.
So add that to the chicken/egg grabass of TT failing The Wizard and Super OC being stubborn and blah, blah, blah, blah. Go ahead and tell me Rodgers, a hardcore competitor with more than a few brains and opinions, didn't play into the entire equation. Oh yeah, MM is still here.
Game day bucket go boom.
I do not disagree with you, but, who, in your mind is out there to replace him?
Please remember that MM3 is the winningest coach in GB history.
Any coach you name will be ridiculed and, probably, hated by the masses as much as you seem to hate MM3.
Who is out there to replace him?
bitching about him and wanting him replaced is fine by me.
But, please provide an alternative.
Makes me think back to watching the Packers every sunday on tv in the early 60’s. I adored them, but 1 of my 4 brothers got so wrapped up in the action that he would always end up railing against the coach, frequently while pounding his fist on the floor (we usually were lying on the carpet while watching). “Such an idiot! He’s the worst coach ever! They should fire his a** as soon as this game is over. He’s the worst coach in the nfl!” And then invariably, he’d get so miffed that he couldn’t watch anymore, and stormed away. The coach ... of course ... was Vince Lombardi.
RoyalWulff posted:GrainBelt66 posted:Henry posted:Oh, and let me add this bee to the bonnet. If Rodgers got upset about losing Van Pelt and has constantly said he endorses MM's playcalling, do you think that wouldn't have an impact of if MM was fired or not? So how do you unseat a guy who hangs onto a turd like Capers if your HOF QB is going to get pissed off with an upcoming contract on the horizon? Why is MM still here?
And no, it's not the entire reason. TT was too soft as well but that's pretty solid reason to put off the decision
Murphy literally had to dismantle the organizational structure which existed under Harlan and there's no knowing why Gee Your Hair Smells Terrific actually landed the GM spot. I'm curious as to how much power he will wield.
So add that to the chicken/egg grabass of TT failing The Wizard and Super OC being stubborn and blah, blah, blah, blah. Go ahead and tell me Rodgers, a hardcore competitor with more than a few brains and opinions, didn't play into the entire equation. Oh yeah, MM is still here.
Game day bucket go boom.
I do not disagree with you, but, who, in your mind is out there to replace him?
Please remember that MM3 is the winningest coach in GB history.
Any coach you name will be ridiculed and, probably, hated by the masses as much as you seem to hate MM3.
Who is out there to replace him?
bitching about him and wanting him replaced is fine by me.
But, please provide an alternative.
Makes me think back to watching the Packers every sunday on tv in the early 60’s. I adored them, but 1 of my 4 brothers got so wrapped up in the action that he would always end up railing against the coach, frequently while pounding his fist on the floor (we usually were lying on the carpet while watching). “Such an idiot! He’s the worst coach ever! They should fire his a** as soon as this game is over. He’s the worst coach in the nfl!” And then invariably, he’d get so miffed that he couldn’t watch anymore, and stormed away. The coach ... of course ... was Vince Lombardi.
I had an uncle who would say similar stuff in the 60s. I could never quite understand it. Vince won enough to have 5 NFL championships in 9 years. Even then I could go to the library (no internet) and get information on often specific coaches won championships - it was a head scratcher. While in the midst of those 5 championships Vince was already head and shoulders above the historical field. It would do us well to remember that "we" (NFL coaches and players included) are human. All of us deal with things with a finite understanding. We fans don't see the field the way they see it to fully understand why they reacted the way they did. And we don't always know how they process information. None of us can predict our immediate future. Yet, those blessed with a better ability to do that and take appropriate action in the present can have more sustained success - that was Vince. But that is not most of the human population.
I am reminded of the joke that goes as follows: Vince is in bed with feet sticking out from under the covers. Marie (Vince's wife) comes in and feels his feet and exclaims "god your feet are cold". To which Vince replies, "at home you can call me Vince". Or something like that.
Vince was not a god - all kidding aside. He worried and fretted over just about everything - and had results for all his trouble. And yet he still could not meet some fans expectations. I learned a lot from that. And one of those things is I have no idea how the present decisions with respect to the Packers will turn out.
RoyalWulff posted:GrainBelt66 posted:Henry posted:Oh, and let me add this bee to the bonnet. If Rodgers got upset about losing Van Pelt and has constantly said he endorses MM's playcalling, do you think that wouldn't have an impact of if MM was fired or not? So how do you unseat a guy who hangs onto a turd like Capers if your HOF QB is going to get pissed off with an upcoming contract on the horizon? Why is MM still here?
And no, it's not the entire reason. TT was too soft as well but that's pretty solid reason to put off the decision
Murphy literally had to dismantle the organizational structure which existed under Harlan and there's no knowing why Gee Your Hair Smells Terrific actually landed the GM spot. I'm curious as to how much power he will wield.
So add that to the chicken/egg grabass of TT failing The Wizard and Super OC being stubborn and blah, blah, blah, blah. Go ahead and tell me Rodgers, a hardcore competitor with more than a few brains and opinions, didn't play into the entire equation. Oh yeah, MM is still here.
Game day bucket go boom.
I do not disagree with you, but, who, in your mind is out there to replace him?
Please remember that MM3 is the winningest coach in GB history.
Any coach you name will be ridiculed and, probably, hated by the masses as much as you seem to hate MM3.
Who is out there to replace him?
bitching about him and wanting him replaced is fine by me.
But, please provide an alternative.
Makes me think back to watching the Packers every sunday on tv in the early 60’s. I adored them, but 1 of my 4 brothers got so wrapped up in the action that he would always end up railing against the coach, frequently while pounding his fist on the floor (we usually were lying on the carpet while watching). “Such an idiot! He’s the worst coach ever! They should fire his a** as soon as this game is over. He’s the worst coach in the nfl!” And then invariably, he’d get so miffed that he couldn’t watch anymore, and stormed away. The coach ... of course ... was Vince Lombardi.
Yeah, MM is Lombardi. For **** sakes.
Grave Digger posted:Mike’s on a 1 year prove-it deal, what type of season warrants an extension? SB only? We know Hank’s answer: nothing.
He doesn't have to prove anything because he has a superstar QB that'll do it for him. Why is super genius Vince McCarthy even on a one year prove it contract? I'm just baffled by this.
Oh wait, it's because Vince McCarthy was saddled with a horrible GM that caused all his woes? Forced to keep an ineffectual coaching staff with nothing but DIII players and a QB he didn't want to draft in the first place. Oh Vince McLardi, truly your genius shineth through your adversity.
You ladies pull out the fainting couches to help you get over the vapors.
ChilliJon posted:As best as I can decipher:
Mike is better than Holmgren. Rodgers has made Mike look good. Mike did it with Favre. Mike isn’t Belichick.
Every coach worth a **** protects guys but Mike made a mistake with Dom and everyone on the staff respects him for it.
Mikes been given new deployment orders.
That’s all I got out of that.
Maybe it was a bit disjointed of a response- but the point I was responding to was the idea that it’s either personnel or coaching. But that’s foolish- it’s all of it. The talent needed an overhaul. The personnel department needed an overhaul. And the coach saw that his staff and program needed an overhaul. McCarthy to his credit recognized that he and his staff had to be accountable while Murphy held the personnel department and team management accountable. To me that’s a sign of a coach that understands he made a mistake.
Call him McStupidface all you want- I don’t think he’s just a good offensive coordinator. I think it’s pretty dumb to think it’s all Rodgers so McCarthy must not be a good coach - it a lazy take looking for absolutes as to why they lost.
Music City posted:Henry posted:So it happens with good drafting and team building? Which one is it?
The answer is all of the above. You can have a great coach, but a **** personnel department and it all goes down. Then you can take a great coach and give him personnel, and you get Holmgren.
For several years, the Packers have been a contender. Winning a SB is not a right just because Rodgers is a great (maybe the greatest) QB. He has made McCarthy look good, but it’s his program, and he’s done it with Favre- they make each other look good. Maybe he’s not Bellichik, but I don’t think it’s fair to point to that as the only standard.
McCarthy protects his guys- so does every coach worth a ****. He made a mistake holding onto Capers. I feel pretty strongly that the folks on his staff have the utmost respect for McCarthy. Now that a new decision maker presides over personnel and a fresh approach to defense is on board, he has the tools he needs to lead his team to success.
Read the thread Tiny Cernovich. The whole system broke down but GD, your voting partner, believes poor McLardi has been tied to the railroad tracks of adversity by Snidley Thompson.
They all should've been fired. That's the summary.
