Poz/Negatives Packers Giants.

DH13 posted:

Pistol GB posted:

DH13 posted:

Adams showed more ability as a rookie than any of our current WR's have to date. 

So you didn't say this.  K.

Changing subjects to second years?  Context is, AR had no one else to throw it to in '15.  MVS isn't getting the targets.  Both bad.

They both slumped/are slumping was the only point.

But bitch away.  It's so enjoyable to read at 9-3.

Never said I didn't say that.  Doesn't matter.  Compare their rookie years and their second years.  The point you somehow seem to keep missing is that Adams showed more in his rookie AND second year than all the other receivers currently on the roster.  I don't give two craps about the stats.  Use your eyes.  

I'll simplify it for you.  What WR on the roster has shown the ability to consistently get open, injury notwithstanding.  And Adams wasn't in a slump, he was playing injured. Oh but stats!

Simplify it further.  Is it being suggested MVS is on the same talent level as Adams?

No.  Read it from the beginning.  I'm not repeating myself.

I think MVS is still dealing with the ankle/knee, even though he's not on the injury list. His routes look off, kind of like Adams his soph season when dealing with the ankle. Difference is Adams is significantly better than MVS when both healthy or both hobbled. But I see MVS challenged in his breaks.

Agree. He ain't right but he's trying to battle through it.

Humans not robots. It ain't fantasy football

Pistol GB posted:

I'm not repeating myself.

I think we all know that's not true.

To the other comments above, I don't know what to make of MVS.  He certainly seems like he has the skillset but he hasn't been particularly good running routes in the first place.  I chock that up to being a rookie and now a possible injury.  It's hard to get a read on the guy.  Big and fast, sure, but you're just completely unsure what his trajectory is.

He doesn't quite pass the eyeball test.  I don't know what it is.  When Lazard started to make some noise he looked like he was making NFL grabs and making NFL moves.  MVS seems like he's still trying to figure it all out. 

Somebody needs to knee cap Adams so we can find out the true nature of Scrubland.

MVD seems to read the D wrong too. Late in game he was the target of one Rodgers pass on third down that wasn’t even in the neighborhood he was. Cut to typical look of Rodgers exasperation 

Yeah, those are the kind of mistakes that can end in turnovers. 

Blake's pass defense on display.   775 snaps, about 98% of the plays this year, and he still has a goose egg in the pass defenses stat line.   That's one less than Dean Lowry.  

https://twitter.com/saliopp/st.../1201586476770877442

Look at all the other LB's who are up there in the league in tackle numbers.   Not only are they occsionaly defending a pass, they also force a turnover, INT of FF, once in a while.   Can you imagine that? 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats...otalTackles/dir/desc

So who do you replace him with?

Take your pick of anyone.   To some posters real football is the same as fantasy football.

FinnLander posted:

So who do you replace him with?

Is AJ staying in shape these days? An AJ/Blake tandem would wreck the league....and possibly the franchise. 

BrainDed posted:

Blake's pass defense on display.   775 snaps, about 98% of the plays this year, and he still has a goose egg in the pass defenses stat line.   That's one less than Dean Lowry.  

Maybe he's like Deion Sanders and teams are afraid to throw the ball in his direction? Yeah, that's it. 

BrainDed posted:

Blake's pass defense on display.   775 snaps, about 98% of the plays this year, and he still has a goose egg in the pass defenses stat line.   That's one less than Dean Lowry.  

https://twitter.com/saliopp/st.../1201586476770877442

Look at all the other LB's who are up there in the league in tackle numbers.   Not only are they occsionaly defending a pass, they also force a turnover, INT of FF, once in a while.   Can you imagine that? 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats...otalTackles/dir/desc

Here's your stats issue.  Bobby Wagner, which we can all agree is pretty damn good LB, has 4 PD to Martinez's 0 PD and 1 fumble recovery to 0 for Martinez.  Otherwise Martinez leads or matches Wagner's totals. 

What's the eyeball test?  Who are the other LBs Wagner is surrounded by?  I don't think anyone would say "Yeah, I'll take Martinez over Wagner any day".  Using one clip?  I hate that as much as stats. 

Summary:  Martinez is not a 3 down back but isn't a scrub.  He deserves an appropriate contract and some actual talent surrounding him.  He never should've been the focal point of the ILB position but the titanic drop off in talent makes it inevitable. 

Of course teams are going to target him.  Rodger and Mayo targeted KC LBs and we all know how that turned out.  It's not some revelation that offenses target opposing LBs unless the team sucked for so long that they have nothing but 1st rounders (that panned out) in their defense.

Martinez is what he is but he's also on a frickin' island.  Any excessive help from DBs at the line just means there's a gap in the middle behind the defense instead of in front of it.  Get some help then we can condemn Martinez as the lynchpin of doom.

He shouldn't be on the field in any passing situation.   His awareness is bottom barrel and it's not just one clip.   We could pull up numerous clips of him sitting 3 yards too deep while a guy catches a ball in front of him and numerous clips of his standing still while opponents run across his face for big gains.  

The stats show what we all know, he isn't a play maker.   He let's the play come to him and makes the sure tackle 4 yards down field in the run game or 2 yards past the sticks in the pass game.    No passes defended, no INT's, 1 FF, and 0 FR in nearly 800 snaps.   

That production is easily replaced.   I'll take the occasional missed tackle if it means we get an occasional 3rd down pass defensed. 

What Brainded said. Burks or the rookie couldn't be worse in coverage.

The "letting the play come to him" is the most telling comment above. Very AJ Hawk like. When he guesses, he guesses wrong as far as aggressively filling the gap.

If it's that easy to replace I hope Goink is scanning the waiver wire and every PS.  He should be doing it anyways to find at least two mediocre guys.

YATittle posted:

What Brainded said. Burks or the rookie couldn't be worse in coverage.

Yet they can't get on the field.  And yes, they can be worse.  Summers couldn't tackle for shit in the preseason and against other scrubs.  Burks, who the hell knows what he could do.  They drafted him to be in there in the first place but the guy is invisible.

The AJ Hawk thing is getting old.  1st rounder vs. a 4th rounder.

Thanks to Preston Smith, the Eli Manning farewell tour is back on!

Probably didn’t feel great a few days later https://t.co/r8MRLHMTMu

— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) December 4, 2019

#Giants coach Pat Shurmur tells reporters that QB Daniel Jones is in a walking boot with a mild high-ankle sprain… and Eli Manning will “very likely” start on Monday. So, Manning gets a potential farewell tour, after all.

— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) December 4, 2019

Henry posted:

If it's that easy to replace I hope Goink is scanning the waiver wire and every PS.  He should be doing it anyways to find at least two mediocre guys.

For whatever reason he is apparently loved by Pettine.   The Hawk comparison is valid IMO but only because it seems that he has the same labels that were used to defend Hawk.  Accountable, available, coach on the field and so on.    

I just don't get it.   Say Burks comes in and blows an assignment or misses a tackle leading to a 30 yard gain.   Is that really that much worse than allowing 3 completions for 1st downs?    Now add in that Burks MAY have the potential to breakup a pass, say every 200 snaps (Considering his play in College, that's not a crazy assumption).  He has now prevented 4 more 1st downs than Martinez.

Neither is ideal, I just prefer taking the risk and going with potential in this scenario.   It's just maddening that we play all these DB's but then leave a statue sitting in the MLB position.    3rd n 15 and we got Blake standing 10 yards behind the LOS occupying a 3 yard radius of turf.   Yipeee. 

I have zero problems with Burks getting on the field but he doesn't.  Freakin' Goodman is beating these guys out.  Talk about two guys who are liabilities in the pass game.  Even if Burks or whoever comes in Martinez is still going to have to be on the field.  Summers and Burks?  Burks and Goodman?  What's the difference?

I'm all for it but I don't think anyone currently on this team is going to surprise us.

Whoa, wait a minute. Smith landed on the QB with all his weight? Where was the flag? #GBRefs!!! 

Burks, Josh Jackson, Rashan Gary, Montravious Adams. That's a lot of high draft talent not seeing the field. 

I would love to know what an off-the-record Gutenheimer thinks of that.   

Gary was always planned to be a project that needed development.  He's pretty much redshirting this year.

Is Martinez an absolute monster who wreaks havoc.....no.  But is he better than some on this board give him credit for....yes.  The stats that were pointed out say that Bobby Wagner, who any of us would take in a heartbeat for GB, has four PD's to Martinez's 0.  Over 12 games, that's 0.33 per game.  Is that going to put us over the top or stop the egregious number of 40+ yard completions this defense has allowed?  Despite what we think we know as football fans, and what we glean from the games we watch, Pettine has watched a couple of years of practices, spent hundreds of hours studying tape and has his reputation staked on the performance of his defense.  I would defer to his judgement.  

DH13 posted:

Gary was always planned to be a project that needed development.  He's pretty much redshirting this year.

While that may be, and of course we will see what time will tell, you don't pick a 1st round draft choice 12 overall to be a project/red shirt. You just don't.

A player taken that high, unless drafted as a future QB, is fully expected to be a impact player the moment they are drafted.  

DH13 posted:

Gary was always planned to be a project that needed development.  He's pretty much redshirting this year.

I don't think it was a very good plan.  If he needs to be developed that much he probably shouldn't have been a first rounder. 

Henry posted:

....or whoever comes in Martinez is still going to have to be on the field.  Summers and Burks?  Burks and Goodman?  What's the difference?

I'm all for it but I don't think anyone currently on this team is going to surprise us.

It's Norv Pettines job to get creative. So Blake is currently your best ILB, fine, keep him in on run downs, early downs, etc....but 100% of the snaps ?? In obvious passing situations? How about going hybrid, dime, dollar, etc...at least once in a while in those situations. Otherwise Blake is just an easy target in the passing game. 

Exactly. Should NEVER be in on passing downs.

Packdog posted:

Henry posted:

....or whoever comes in Martinez is still going to have to be on the field.  Summers and Burks?  Burks and Goodman?  What's the difference?

I'm all for it but I don't think anyone currently on this team is going to surprise us.

It's Norv Pettines job to get creative. So Blake is currently your best ILB, fine, keep him in on run downs, early downs, etc....but 100% of the snaps ?? In obvious passing situations? How about going hybrid, dime, dollar, etc...at least once in a while in those situations. Otherwise Blake is just an easy target in the passing game. 

 

Are you kidding?  How many times have you seen him put 6 DBs back there then people bitch about safety play because they're focused on the line or the offense audibles out and runs those guys over.

So you put Summers, Goodman or Burks in on passing downs?  Oh, you usually have 2 ILBs.  I see Summers out there I dump off a short pass and let my RB/FB truck him.  Goodman is a worse coverage option than Martinez.  Burks?  Yeah, that's why he was drafted.  Whose the other ILB you put out there with Burks who to this date has shown nothing?

I don't care if people think Martinez should be jettisoned next year but if we're talking about the here and now he is your best option period. 

Blake is definitely your best option. They are just too predictable with him out there for every damn play. Mix it up.  Pretend you are Rex Ryan and not Norv Pettine. 

I bet if they went and got Riverboat Ron he'd be doing the same thing.  Not opposed to that scenario either.

RochNyFan posted:

Despite what we think we know as football fans, and what we glean from the games we watch, Pettine has watched a couple of years of practices, spent hundreds of hours studying tape and has his reputation staked on the performance of his defense.  I would defer to his judgement.  

I don't blame Pettine for the poor play at middle linebacker.

Pettine also watched practices and spent hundreds of hours studying tape in 2018 and yet he started Kentrell Brice and Josh Jones at safety much of second half of last season.

What choice did he have?

Garbage in, garbage out.

So here's a thought.  If you've got nothing to lose why not Gary?  A 270 pound guy with crazy athleticism.  Supposedly at Michigan he was drawing all the attention so guys like Bush could crash in.  What about Gary over the top of Kenny Clark?  He has more than enough speed for coverage.  So now he's just got to learn it.  Even if it's temporary it sure can't hurt his development IMO.  I'm guessing he's got a lot to learn in pass coverage but this is a what do you have to lose scenario.

Even if he isn't awesome in coverage I bet offenses keep a man in to account for him.  One less pass option. 

packerboi posted:

DH13 posted:

Gary was always planned to be a project that needed development.  He's pretty much redshirting this year.

While that may be, and of course we will see what time will tell, you don't pick a 1st round draft choice 12 overall to be a project/red shirt. You just don't.

A player taken that high, unless drafted as a future QB, is fully expected to be a impact player the moment they are drafted.  

Nope.  Not at all according to the guys who get paid to make those decisions.  He was drafted to be almost exactly the type of player Z is, based on measureables and diversity.  With the Smiths starting and setting the world afire, there isn't a huge push to get Gary on the field yet.  I'm sure they want him to learn the position he was drafted for first before trying him at another.  Yeah I'd like to see more impact sooner too just based on raw ability but I'll grudgingly accept we may not see it this year.

I'll make a wild guess and say Pettine will try to wring something out of him in the playoffs, even if it's a few snaps a game where the situation is most favorable for Gary to do whatever he does best at that point.  It might be at OLB, it might be lining up over a G.

BrainDed posted:

Henry posted:

If it's that easy to replace I hope Goink is scanning the waiver wire and every PS.  He should be doing it anyways to find at least two mediocre guys.

For whatever reason he is apparently loved by Pettine.   The Hawk comparison is valid IMO but only because it seems that he has the same labels that were used to defend Hawk.  Accountable, available, coach on the field and so on.    

I just don't get it.   Say Burks comes in and blows an assignment or misses a tackle leading to a 30 yard gain.   Is that really that much worse than allowing 3 completions for 1st downs?    Now add in that Burks MAY have the potential to breakup a pass, say every 200 snaps (Considering his play in College, that's not a crazy assumption).  He has now prevented 4 more 1st downs than Martinez.

Neither is ideal, I just prefer taking the risk and going with potential in this scenario.   It's just maddening that we play all these DB's but then leave a statue sitting in the MLB position.    3rd n 15 and we got Blake standing 10 yards behind the LOS occupying a 3 yard radius of turf.   Yipeee. 

"For whatever reason."    

How about the reason is that he's observed all of the ILB options over countless practices & games and even with Martinez's warts, the ABM feels he's the best option to help GB win a football game?

For whatever reason.  SMH.

DH13 posted:

packerboi posted:

DH13 posted:

Gary was always planned to be a project that needed development.  He's pretty much redshirting this year.

While that may be, and of course we will see what time will tell, you don't pick a 1st round draft choice 12 overall to be a project/red shirt. You just don't.

A player taken that high, unless drafted as a future QB, is fully expected to be a impact player the moment they are drafted.  

Nope.  Not at all according to the guys who get paid to make those decisions.

I can respect that. 

In that case somebody needs to satisfy me immediately. 

I thought Savage was going to be that guy.

I'm looking at my left hand right now.

"Oh yeah baby, COVER THAT TE!"

I meant Dan Savage.