Boris posted:

Nick Perry's skillset? Fine by me....hopefully not Perry's ❤️

Nick Perry may have had heart, but he was made of glass.  Seemed like almost every year he was dealing with something that limited him.  Played many games with just 1 free hand because his other hand was wrapped up due to an injury.  There's just no way you can live up to your potential with that stuff happening all the time.  That said, even when he was completely healthy, he was just pretty good, never really great. 

fightphoe93 posted:
Boris posted:

Nick Perry's skillset? Fine by me....hopefully not Perry's ❤️

Nick Perry may have had heart, {snip}

No he really didn't....late for meetings & MM never did a thing about it. He was simply in it for the money as evidenced he's no longer in the league at the ripe old age of 29.

You're right about him being made of glass though. He would never play through an owie.

I've liked Martinez but he's just an average starting ILB in the league and really doesn't warrant being paid like a difference maker. You can't pay him more than $4m per year.  Packers haven't given themselves many options though, so may be stuck paying him double that. 

bdplant posted:

I dunno, I guess I don’t get how you can call the league’s leading tackler “average at best”.  He has to be doing something right. Or is the rest of the team that bad at tackling?

I think that we as fans see lots of other inside backers excell at pass coverage and  stopping the run. Yet most of them were high draft picks. This team has not felt that the position requires a high draft pick or expensive free agent. Martinez is most often in the right spot to make a tackle when others on the team are not. He is a film study junkie. And he has been relatively healthy. As they say “the best ability is availability”. Pettine trusts Martinez to make sure that the defense knows the calls and he does that. My opinion is that until this team decides to invest in a premium MLB, we won’t get one. Besides, he really is better than average, so he is what he is and wishing won’t change a thing. Maybe down the road we pick up his replacement or somebody to compliment his skills.

bdplant posted:

I dunno, I guess I don’t get how you can call the league’s leading tackler “average at best”.  He has to be doing something right. Or is the rest of the team that bad at tackling?

What's he's doing right is staying healthy/available and being the best option at his position. The defense is designed to funnel plays towards him. He's going to have way more chances to make tackles than anyone else on the field. Just needs to make more of them within 5 yards of the LOS. 

There's more good than bad with Martinez.

We all want "dynamic" & he is never going to be that guy. However, if Gute puts star pieces around him, you can win with a guy like Martinez. 

He made the call to move Fackrell & they stopped McCaffrey. I think most of you are discounting the fact he was responsible for the final play being a successful stop.

This whole conversation is eerily reminiscent of the years prior to Hawk extensions.   “Coaches know better” and “availability” and “always in the right spot” and “coach on the field”.....

He fucking sucks, we all see it, stop making excuses.   His products easily replaced and if they pay him we will suffer from that mistake for the length of the deal. 

AJ Hawk - tackles:

2006: 18th in the league
2007: 28th
2008: 66th
2009: 58th
2010:  22nd
2011:  72nd
2012:  21st
2013:  23rd
2014:  57th
 
Downright average. 
 
Never once was Hawk anywhere near the league’s leading tackler.  

But yeah, the 2019 league’s leading tackler sucks. 
BrainDed posted:

 

He fucking sucks, we all see it, stop making excuses.   His products easily replaced and if they pay him we will suffer from that mistake for the length of the deal. 

This is pretty laughable.  He does not suck, not even close.  He can't cover, yes.  He "fucking sucks"?  Not even close.

i am thinking that the mentality of ilb being a non-premium position is changing, look at the last couple years, roquan smith, devin white, devin bush, there is a premium on getting the good ones. if martinez wants to be paid like luke k in carolina, then its bye bye.  we will have to figure something out, although from what i hear the 2020 draft should have lots of wr and qb at the top, which we also desperately need, so...

Henry posted:

ILB went the way of RB a few years back.  They go hand in hand.  Gonzo has to draft ILB simply because there is NO ONE besides Martinez.  Maybe Burks shows up at some point but I'm not holding my breath. 

There's a lot of pressure on Martinez, that's for sure.  Right now, there's not much we can do but hope Burks comes around or someone else gets slotted in to spell Martinez.

bdplant posted:

AJ Hawk - tackles:

2006: 18th in the league
2007: 28th
2008: 66th
2009: 58th
2010:  22nd
2011:  72nd
2012:  21st
2013:  23rd
2014:  57th
 
Downright average. 
 
Never once was Hawk anywhere near the league’s leading tackler.  

But yeah, the 2019 league’s leading tackler sucks. 

Thx for the Saturday morning laugh. 

Again....he's not a dynamic playmaker but there are more +++ than - - -

Henry posted:
BrainDed posted:

 

He fucking sucks, we all see it, stop making excuses.   His products easily replaced and if they pay him we will suffer from that mistake for the length of the deal. 

This is pretty laughable.  He does not suck, not even close.  He can't cover, yes.  He "fucking sucks"?  Not even close.

Fair.  I had a few cocktails.    He’s fucking not worth what he will get paid.    

YATittle posted:

Those comments from Rivers were pretty damning.

Yup. Still have reservations about Pettine’s ability to adjust. Forgot where I read it, but recall an article saying that the genius of the Jets was all Rex...and that Pettine just doesn’t have the creative ability that Ryan did. We shall see.  

Martinez definitely does not suck, but he’s not the guy you want out there for every snap. Can’t tell me that a dollar or heavy hybrid call wouldn’t be warranted in certain passing situations....especially when the middle is getting assaulted. 

YATittle posted:

Those comments from Rivers were pretty damning.

Really.....

Do you think Payton, Belichick, Shanahan or Harbaugh are going to be "studying the Charger tape" if they play the Packers?

Think, man.....we all know the Packers played like crap -- why would Pettine show something that isn't on tape in a basically meaningless game vs. an AFC opponent?? Bigger fish to fry...think big picture.

BrainDed posted:
Henry posted:
BrainDed posted:

 

He fucking sucks, we all see it, stop making excuses.   His products easily replaced and if they pay him we will suffer from that mistake for the length of the deal. 

This is pretty laughable.  He does not suck, not even close.  He can't cover, yes.  He "fucking sucks"?  Not even close.

Fair.  I had a few cocktails.    He’s fucking not worth what he will get paid.    

Drinking and posting.  Who would do that? 

I agree with the take you pay him 4 or 5 mil a year

BrainDed posted:

Gary is a run stuffing DE in a 4-3.  In that system he might get 5 or 6 sacks while being good run defender.  He doesn’t have the skills to be a 3-4 OLB.

In other words, he is Nick Perry 2.0

Good point except Perry had pass rushing ability and Gary doesn't.

Gary is not just a run stuffer and he’s not a DT. Just because he hasn’t shown elite pass rushing ability after 10 games doesn’t mean he can’t do it or that he won’t do it. I feel like we have this same freak out every year with rookies that don’t dominate immediately, some guys take time to develop. Some take 3 games, some take 3 years. Gary has elite athletic ability, he’s got strong mentorship, a proven coach, and so far has shown a great attitude. I know it’s hard, but patience is needed for the kid. 

Grave Digger posted:

Gary is not just a run stuffer and he’s not a DT. Just because he hasn’t shown elite pass rushing ability after 10 games doesn’t mean he can’t do it or that he won’t do it. I feel like we have this same freak out every year with rookies that don’t dominate immediately, some guys take time to develop. Some take 3 games, some take 3 years. Gary has elite athletic ability, he’s got strong mentorship, a proven coach, and so far has shown a great attitude. I know it’s hard, but patience is needed for the kid. 

Absolutely.  If Gary isn't producing two or three years down the road, start talking (Josh Jackson) bust.  Gary deserves time to mature within the system and learn the game at this level.  It's amazing that this needs to be pointed out to people. 

BrainDed posted:
Henry posted:
BrainDed posted:

 

He fucking sucks, we all see it, stop making excuses.   His products easily replaced and if they pay him we will suffer from that mistake for the length of the deal. 

This is pretty laughable.  He does not suck, not even close.  He can't cover, yes.  He "fucking sucks"?  Not even close.

Fair.  I had a few cocktails.      

You must post a lot after having a few cocktails.   It all makes sense now.

Pakrz posted:
Grave Digger posted:

Gary is not just a run stuffer and he’s not a DT. Just because he hasn’t shown elite pass rushing ability after 10 games doesn’t mean he can’t do it or that he won’t do it. I feel like we have this same freak out every year with rookies that don’t dominate immediately, some guys take time to develop. Some take 3 games, some take 3 years. Gary has elite athletic ability, he’s got strong mentorship, a proven coach, and so far has shown a great attitude. I know it’s hard, but patience is needed for the kid. 

Absolutely.  If Gary isn't producing two or three years down the road, start talking (Josh Jackson) bust.  Gary deserves time to mature within the system and learn the game at this level.  It's amazing that this needs to be pointed out to people. 

We weren’t saying that Clay Mathews rookie year.   It was more like “holy shit, kid is freakishly good,  has the it factor.”

Henry posted:

Or does Pettine not have any other choice?  There is something to QBing the defense.  Is Goodman going to do it?  Maybe they should get a legit player (Burks bust) next to him so he isn't so exposed.

Part of the issue is Burks isn't a meat sack. Martinez is not exactly Levon Kirkland in there, but he's the biggest ILB they have and they run mostly sub. I think Burks still has a shot, but injuries lost his rookie season and the early part of this one, and he's not built to be a thumper. 

bdplant posted:

AJ Hawk - tackles:

2006: 18th in the league
2007: 28th
2008: 66th
2009: 58th
2010:  22nd
2011:  72nd
2012:  21st
2013:  23rd
2014:  57th
 
Downright average. 
 
Never once was Hawk anywhere near the league’s leading tackler.  

But yeah, the 2019 league’s leading tackler sucks. 

Hawk and Martinez really don't play the same position. While they call is a 3-4 Martinez doesn't play in that defense other than a few plays a game. Hawk played it almost exclusively from 2009 forward. 

In that scheme Hawk was basically more of another D lineman taking on blockers to free up Barnett or Bishop or even Brad Jones to run to the ball. 

In this defense Martinez is that type of free runner, but it's really more of a gap integrity defense. 

BrainDed posted:

We weren’t saying that Clay Mathews rookie year.   It was more like “holy shit, kid is freakishly good,  has the it factor.”



And? There are tons of examples of players dominating early and tapering off and tons of examples of players being quiet early and coming on strong later. 

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