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As the Packers enter the bye week, it has become clear the defense is not as effective as we believed in the early part of the season.  Yes, the team is still 8-2, but this bend-but-don't-break style, even in MLF's words, is not sustainable.  They've given up more than 400 yards in half of their games, River's shredded them, Matt Moore had great success against them, and Kyle Allen ended up having career day against them.  When playoff time comes, it won't be pretty if they are up against Brees, Wilson, or even Wentz again.  

While they're definitely better on the edge and in the secondary, the middle has been soft against the run and the pass.  Wonder if it would make sense to kick the tires again on Mo Wilkerson, who is more than a year removed now from his injury.  Can he possibly be an improvement over Lancaster, and at least eat up some snaps and help keep Clark fresh?  And, the Packers have a huge need at ILB....and Zach Brown is still a free agent.  I've heard rumors that he may be a problem in the lockerroom, but I have to think that with the leadership on this year's team, primarily the Smith brothers, that they can keep him in check.  Brandon Marshall is also un-signed, and was regarded as a good cover linebacker.

 

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On March 15, 2018, the Washington Redskins signed Brown signed a three-year, $24 million contract that includes $10 million guaranteed and a signing bonus of $4.50 million.[10][46] Head coach Jay Gruden retained Brown, Foster, Kerrigan, and Smith as the starting linebackers in 2018. On December 30, 2018, Brown recorded a season-high 11 combined tackles (nine solo) as the Redskins lost 24–0 against the Philadelphia Eagles in Week 17.[47] He finished the 2018 NFL season with 96 combined tackles (69 solo), one sack, and one pass deflection in 16 games and 12 starts.[17] Brown received an overall grade of 89.2 from Pro Football Focus in 2018. His grade was the third best grade among all qualified linebackers during the season.[48]

On March 13, 2019, Brown was released by the Redskins.[49]

Philadelphia Eagles[edit]

On May 3, 2019, Brown signed a one-year, $3 million contract with the Philadelphia Eagles.[50] He was released on October 14, 2019, after starting the first six games of the season for them.[51]

Arizona Cardinals[edit]

On November 1, 2019, Brown was signed by the Arizona Cardinals, but was released five days later.

I was wondering about Mo Wilkerson myself, but Gutekunst brought in Carl Davis, David Parry and Justin Ellis for tryouts yesterday. Take your pick:

Carl Davis, was a third-round pick of Ravens in 2015.  Measures 6-5 and weighs 320. Played in 34 career games, including 12 starts for the Ravens in 2015-16. 

Parry, a fifth-round pick of the Colts in 2015.  Measures 6-2 and weighs 317. He has five sacks and 83 tackles in 36 career games.

Ellis, a fourth-round pick of the Oakland Raiders in 2014. Measures 6-2 and weighs 335 pounds. He has 119 tackles in 66 career games.

RochNyFan posted:

As the Packers enter the bye week, it has become clear the defense is not as effective as we believed in the early part of the season.  Yes, the team is still 8-2, but this bend-but-don't-break style, even in MLF's words, is not sustainable.   

While yes, stats can be for weinies, these are rather notable for the Packers on defense:

The Packers are 9th in the NFL in passes defended.

They are 5th in the NFL in team INT's.

They are 3rd in the NFL at +8 in takeaways.     

They are 6th in the NFL in red zone TD defense percentage.  In short, this means when offenses get into their red zone, the Packers are one of the best teams at not giving up a TD. Lot's of FG's or INT's in the EZ. 

They are averaging 20.5 ppg which places them in the top 15 in scoring defense.

Leroy Butler points out when it comes to Super Bowl aspirations for teams who make the SB, it really comes down to 2 stats: 

Takeaways (they are 3rd) and scoring (they are 15th, spent most of the season at 10-12th).     

And I agree with #36. I don't really give a shit about total yards, run defense vs pass, etc. It comes down to are you taking the ball away and are they giving the offense a shot to win? At 20 points per game, with a top 6 offense averaging 26 points a game, that translates to a lot of wins. Which fits why they are 8-2      





 

I think we also have to realize what today's  NFL looks like. Unless you are a defense who gets to feast on bad team after bad team (see Pat's see 49ers), the idea that a defense can look like the '85 Bears or the '00 Ravens game in and out is just not reality anymore.

Rules have changed dramatically and are heavily skewed to the QB and the offense. You can barely touch QB's nowadays. Damn near every player who can touch a football on offense is now considered a defenseless player, can't touch them either. Rules are in place (thank you Fantasy Football) to ensure teams score and score a lot.

Yes, the Packers need an upgrade at ILB. No argument here. But we just played a team in the Panthers who arguably have the best coverage ILB in football in Luke Kuechly. And yet, they have a worse rushing defense then the Packers.  The 9ers played a real offense in the SeaHags last night and didn't look nearly as dominant. Same with the Pats who lost to an excellent Ravens team.

None of these teams in the NFC are without their warts. The Packers may not be great on defense, but they do a whole lot that's good on defense.              

Two things bug me the most when watching this D over the last 5 weeks.

There seem to be fewer and fewer 3-and-outs and 3rd down stops.  So really one thing:  they aren't getting off the field.

That gets you gassed late in games.  Playoff teams that can run the ball AND have enough proficiency passing, will take advantage.  All the top division teams in the NFC have both of those on offense.

I've said this many times.

GB was a few -plays from tough loss at home and a few +plans from a rout.  Most of the - plays seemed mental more than physical.  They clean those kinds of plays up and they'll be in a better position.

It's not the first INT JA has dropped this year, along with King, Amos, etc.  If the D plays better overall, they won't need to depend on all those INT's being caught.

packerboi posted:
RochNyFan posted:

As the Packers enter the bye week, it has become clear the defense is not as effective as we believed in the early part of the season.  Yes, the team is still 8-2, but this bend-but-don't-break style, even in MLF's words, is not sustainable.   

While yes, stats can be for weinies, these are rather notable for the Packers on defense:

The Packers are 9th in the NFL in passes defended.

They are 5th in the NFL in team INT's.

They are 3rd in the NFL at +8 in takeaways.     

They are 6th in the NFL in red zone TD defense percentage.  In short, this means when offenses get into their red zone, the Packers are one of the best teams at not giving up a TD. Lot's of FG's or INT's in the EZ. 

They are averaging 20.5 ppg which places them in the top 15 in scoring defense.

Leroy Butler points out when it comes to Super Bowl aspirations for teams who make the SB, it really comes down to 2 stats: 

Takeaways (they are 3rd) and scoring (they are 15th, spent most of the season at 10-12th).     

And I agree with #36. I don't really give a shit about total yards, run defense vs pass, etc. It comes down to are you taking the ball away and are they giving the offense a shot to win? At 20 points per game, with a top 6 offense averaging 26 points a game, that translates to a lot of wins. Which fits why they are 8-2      





 

Leroy also said on Monday that the Packers are one and done with this defense, so take your pick.

Last edited by Tavis Smiley

Defenses look good when they can generate pressure in the pass rush without rushing more than 4 guys. 

For all the other stats, if Gute would have gone into this year with CM3 and Perry again instead of the two Smiths, we'd probably be about 5-5. 

Now that they have the edge rushers, to become a championship caliber defense, they have to generate pass rush to collapse the pocket from inside. Kenny Clark may be the difference between a deep playoff run and a one and done. The other NFC playoff QBs right now would be these 5:  Russell Wilson, Garapollo, Cousins, Wentz, and Brees. The nice thing about that group is that outside of Wilson, none of those guys are likely to beat you by running for a bunch of yards. That means you can get after them on the rush. Any of those guys will pick you apart if they have time. 

I like this team a ton. Love the new energy, family type feel, etc. However, I do think something has to be adjusted during the bye week or I don’t think the current model  will translate to wins in the post season. In 2010 it helped picking up Howard Green to assist stopping the run. In 2014 it was moving Clay inside that helped. If we can’t pick up someone off the street then we obviously need to look in-house for help. I read something about try to move Gary inside to help with the run, but who knows. I have confidence they can figure this out. 

In a side note, watching Clowney dominate last night pissed me off. Even though he is wildly inconsistent, players play.

packerboi posted:

And IIRC, I believe the Packers have one of the easiest strength of schedules among the top NFC seeds. 

Niners at 60% remaining opponents winning %

Seattle at 51% remaining opponents winning %

Packers at 44% remaining opponents winning %

Don't know about Saints or Vikings or (HaHa Cokeboys)

My pick 6 in the playoffs.  

High Probability -- Saints / Niners / Packers / Seahawks

In prime position -- Cowboys / Vikings

Dark Horses -- Eagles, Carolina, Rams

Any other team has to pretty much run the table -- Good luck with that. 

Last edited by Boris

This defense is so hard for me to have a bead on.  I think it is because from play to play, there is such a high spread about the mean.  It is a big play defense - for good and for bad.  The defense has a lot of really good plays and a lot of really bad ones.

One of my main positives is overall health, especially Kevin King's.  I am shocked he is still playing.  I kind of don't get it.

I just hope rushing defense improves as well as pass defense in the short and intermediate parts of the middle of the field.

Of the latter, I have little confidence for this year and hope the Pack acquires a gem at ILB.

At this point, the personnel are what they are.  Gute did not make a move before the trade deadline, and Gute did not make a move for guys off the street (Ellis, Pennell) that may have helped with Run defense.  A couple of things for ABM that he can fix:

  • Simplify or figure out coverage miscommunications mishaps.  Not sure why it is happening, but it is an issue that is correctable.
  • Figure out how to play/work in I. Campbell to improve coverage.  He already got a lot of snaps in his first action back last week.
  • Figure out solution for mesh/crossers that are the Achilles heel for the pass defense right now.
  • Figure out rotation for DL that will keep Clark fresher.  He is a difference maker inside.  Adams and Lowry have to play better.  Lowry has not lived up to new contract.
  • Missed tackles.  Throwing shoulders and diving for feet is poor fundamentals.
michiganjoe posted:

Clean up the tackling and somehow limit the explosive plays would be a nice start. Pettine and the players have made it clear they know it's not good enough so complacency shouldn't be a problem.

I wonder if the explosive plays is scheme-related.  Like maybe Pettine knows this scheme is likely to produce more good big plays, but so also some bad big plays and the cost of the bad ones is worth the reward of the good ones.  Maybe scheming to highly reduce big bad plays will reduce big good plays.

DH13 posted:

Two things bug me the most when watching this D over the last 5 weeks.

There seem to be fewer and fewer 3-and-outs and 3rd down stops.  So really one thing:  they aren't getting off the field.

That gets you gassed late in games.  Playoff teams that can run the ball AND have enough proficiency passing, will take advantage.  All the top division teams in the NFC have both of those on offense.

I would say this comes directly from poor rotation on DL.  Adams was supposedly the perfect rotation guy for Kenny Clark but he's fallen off a cliff.  You aren't going to fix ILB but bringing in DTs for workouts is the right thing to do.  Just being able to have hogs that can stiffen up the run defense will go a long ways.

Last edited by Henry

I think we will see more improvement with Campbell back on the field and potentially if Greene comes off IR. Just like others have stated, scoring and turnovers are all that matters, everything else is fluff. Even with some bad looking stats, there are some really good stats we're seeing in critical areas:

  • Our red zone D is tight, only allowing a TD 48% of the time which is good for 8th in the league. 
  • 10th best in passer rating allowed (88.3 rating)
  • 7th best in takeaways per game (1.6)
  • 10th best in opponent time of possession (28:54), meaning we're getting off the field
Henry posted:

One other thing.  What is with the turf at Lambeau?  It seems like guys are slipping all over the place even on perfect weather days.

I meant to comment on this earlier this week and completely forgot.
Phil Simms made similar comments this morning on PFT, saying the Packers need to solve that problem ASAP (paraphrased).

But there has been at least 3 games I've noticed the players slipping. I'm going to assume it's not a shoe problem by this point, so it must be turf-related.
No idea if the synthetic part of the'system' wears out. Perhaps a drainage problem? I don't think it's necessarily weather-related (humidity or rain).

GreenBayLA posted:
DH13 posted:

Does anybody know if Greene is on schedule to come off IR this year?  Haven't seen or heard one peep as to whether he is done for '19 or has plans on returning.

Greene went on IR Sept 16, available to return after 8-10 wks. Nov 11 = 8wks. Depending on ankle injury status he may be coming back after bye...

Right but he can practice already.  No mention of him anywhere.

GreenBayLA posted:
DH13 posted:

Does anybody know if Greene is on schedule to come off IR this year?  Haven't seen or heard one peep as to whether he is done for '19 or has plans on returning.

Greene went on IR Sept 16, available to return after 8-10 wks. Nov 11 = 8wks. Depending on ankle injury status he may be coming back after bye...

He isn't coming back this year.

The NFL only allows two players to return from IR during the season. Those two spots are already taken by Sternberger and Campbell.

AtTheMurph posted:
GreenBayLA posted:
DH13 posted:

Does anybody know if Greene is on schedule to come off IR this year?  Haven't seen or heard one peep as to whether he is done for '19 or has plans on returning.

Greene went on IR Sept 16, available to return after 8-10 wks. Nov 11 = 8wks. Depending on ankle injury status he may be coming back after bye...

He isn't coming back this year.

The NFL only allows two players to return from IR during the season. Those two spots are already taken by Sternberger and Campbell.

Wrong. Campbell came off PUP, not IR.

YATittle posted:
AtTheMurph posted:
GreenBayLA posted:
DH13 posted:

Does anybody know if Greene is on schedule to come off IR this year?  Haven't seen or heard one peep as to whether he is done for '19 or has plans on returning.

Greene went on IR Sept 16, available to return after 8-10 wks. Nov 11 = 8wks. Depending on ankle injury status he may be coming back after bye...

He isn't coming back this year.

The NFL only allows two players to return from IR during the season. Those two spots are already taken by Sternberger and Campbell.

Wrong. Campbell came off PUP, not IR.

Unnecessary quote.

I agree with whoever said a week-in-week-out absolutely dominant D is not sustainable for 16 games. Mentally and physically, sustaining a super-high level of play for 16 is just not possible for an offense or defense. We saw this D turn it on when it was needed v Chicago, and then again v Minnesota. The Eagles game was just horrible for defense and offense. Since then, the D has bent but not broken, and has been able to clamp down pretty much when needed. The real test will be when they start the playoffs -- I'd love to see them crank up the intensity and the first- and second-week D return, and I hope that's what the overall goal is.

It doesn't need to be dominant at any time for the team to be successful.  It just needs to do enough to keep scoring down which usually entails keeping yards down and turnovers (3rd down stops and TO's) up.  They can do that without turning into the 70's Steelers.  

When it comes to the high yardage totals and low overall D ranking, Ketchman had a good point.  All the yards equate to a lot of time the D is on the field and the O is off it.  You want the O to have as many opportunities as possible.

Falcons held the Saints to 9 points in New Orleans the prior week.

Last I checked, Packers beat the Panthers. Held them to 16 points....Did the league change that result & I missed it? Packer defense is soo bad they lost the bye.

Pretty easy to say...'They won't win a Super Bowl" you have a 31/32 chance of being right. Congrats.....

You guys are jeeenyouses

Last edited by Boris

The defense has hemorrhaged a bit lately, but thank the lord for Gute's work.

Imagine the defense without Zadarius, Preston, and Adrian Amos...arguably 3 of the best players on the defense. Add in Kenny Clark, Jaire, Savage, and a healthy Kevin King and it has the makings of a very solid core. I think they will have some bright moments yet this year. Next year add another big DT and ILB and they are top shelf. 

Last edited by Packdog
BrainDed posted:

No..   The big plays last week were 

  • MCM run where Lowry fell down, just slipped and fell right at the snap, at the point of attack leaving the tackle and guard free to get to the 2nd level. 
  • Kevin King playing zone while everyone else played man and his guy runs free for a 30 yard gain. 

King is lost in zone coverage. Too many bodies get in his way. He is much better suited playing man to man.

I expect to see some improvement coming out of the bye. Pettine had an extra week in the lab, and the boys had an extra week to get healthy.

We've had a tough schedule. Can't overlook that. Our defensive stats will look much better after games against NYG, WASH, etc.

It's not a dominant defense, but we've got enough to win games with our balanced offense. Force turnovers, come up with timely stops, and keep them out of the EZ. Allowing 20 pts/game isn't terrible, especially given the opponents we've faced. 

mrtundra posted:

Some here are talking how we will do in the playoffs. Playoffs??? One game at a time, folks! Let's deal with and beat the 49ers first. Then we can look at our next opponent. Making the playoffs should be a goal but it also should not distract us from what is right in front of us.

Nothing will derail a teams season more than distracted fans. 

Campbell may help shore this up some. They're playing a lot of 3 Safety looks with Amos, Savage, and some combination of Greene/Sullivan/Redmond. With Greene in there that allowed Savage/Amos to play deeper and read the QB, but Sullivan/Redmond weren't suited to fill in for Greene and that meant Amos had to move up. It's a little bit of a waste of Amos's talent to play him so close to the line and that opened some gaps in coverage. Amos has the experience and the range to cover more ground, I think Pettine was hesitant to let Sullivan/Redmond and Savage do anything but a deep cover 2 look with Amos closer to the line. With Campbell playing that low Safety spot and Amos moving back, it allows more opportunity to take away that intermediate zone in the middle where we've been getting gashed. 

Pettine is justified when it comes to Redmond.  Sullivan has made some splash plays but a scrub is a scrub and they'll probably get beat more than they splash.  They really need the ILB presence not only for pass coverage but against the run.  Goodman is just a hunk of meat.  Playing safeties close to the line constantly is surely one reason for the big play problems they have.

Last edited by Henry

Kevin King is Kevin King.  At times he can be very good but he’s prone to either lapses in judgement or just plain laziness.  

The positive news is he’s actually played in more than half a season, but he’s no TJ Watt. 

Martinez does his job; it’s not his fault he’s average in terms of quickness and athleticism.   He needs another ILB alongside him that can cover.  

 

Again, there's a lot more going on with the defense than Blake Martinez.  Outside of the Smith brothers, I'm not seeing much.  Amos and Savage aren't doing anything.  King gets blasted.  Alexander does okay most of the time but he doesn't make the plays you'd expect out of somebody with his skill set.  WTF is up with Kenny Clark?  Williams is just ok.  

 

I don't know if that's fair. Amos and Savage are doing a lot of dirty work covering up for poor play at CB or cheating up to cover up poor play in the front 7. Teams don't throw at Jaire much, so I'm not sure he's getting many opportunities to make plays, truly we've seen more of him running down tackles resulting from other players fuck ups than we've seen him actually covering someone. Clark is like 4th in the league in pressures by interior DL, he's doing fine IMO. The weak spots are Lowry, Lancaster, Martinez, King, and whoever is playing next to Martinez (Goodson?). You can scheme to avoid good players like Clark and Jaire when there are multiple gaps like this. 

I’m not down on Amos as I think he’s been pretty consistent.   He’s an above average player and he doesn’t seem to make many mistakes.  You need guys like that on a defense. 

Savage is a rookie so you will see some brilliant plays and some not so brilliant plays.   He’s certainly got the physical tools to be a really good player and I hope that with more experience he will get there. 

The challenge to me is they probably need another solid DL and they certainly need a better ILB and maybe two if Martinez doesn’t return.   I also think they could use one more decent corner but just about every team will say that. 

With another good draft and offseason the Packers can take a step forward and become an elite team.  They aren’t one right now despite their 8-3 record.  

Tschmack posted:

 

Martinez does his job; it’s not his fault he’s average in terms of quickness and athleticism.   He needs another ILB alongside him that can cover.  

 

No..  No he doesn't.   Part of his job is to defend the pass and the ZERO FUCKING PASSES DEFENDED for the season while playing 99% of the snaps clearly indicates that he is not doing his job.    The crossing routes are designed to exploit his stiffness and lack of awareness.    He sits like a statue as the opponent runs across his face or doesn't get proper depth to defend it. 

http://www.nfl.com/player/blak...inez/2555161/profile

Last edited by BrainDed

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