Super Bowl 50 Pre Game: News, Notes, Quotes, and Predictions

Herschel posted:

TT does a nice job drafting, but when he flops there's no fall back to cover the gaping hole. 

And this is the point most of are making.  This team relies heavily on 22-25 year olds being mature enough to be professionals and treat this game like a job.  I think it was clear that a lot of the young guys on this team did not act as professionals these last 12 months and it showed up on the field.   

I'm not advocating that TT go crazy in free agency, but is it too much ask that he look at the last few Super Bowl champs and realize that free agency can be a valuable means to build a champion?  The market is not as inefficient as it once was - there are plenty of deals to be had.  Fact is, ILB and TE have been huge glaring weaknesses on this team for a while now.  And I don't blame TT for not drafting one b/c if he did, he likely would have reached to fill a need.  But that is what free agency is for, to plug holes that the draft isn't able to.  

The Broncos gambled & went all in. They got the trophy. Congrats. Anyone that thinks they're "well built for the future" has no clue. They're going to suck for a long time. 

I could see 3 straight years of no playoffs a real possibility.

Emmanuel Sanders "contract"

Totally agree.  Age old question that is constantly asked.  Perennial playoff/SB contender or win the SB and not sniff it again for another 10 years?  

The Bronco's were relatively healthy and their D was rock solid.  Now, they will have to try and figure out how to pay alot of those All-Pro guys.  

DEN is also the exception to the rule.  Pretty much every other team that has added as many and as expensive FA's as DEN has mostly suck.  And their cap is toast.  SEA and NE draft and patch (FA) very well.  PIT mostly D+D.  ARZ has a few FA's.

Boris posted:

The Broncos gambled & went all in. They got the trophy. Congrats. Anyone that thinks they're "well built for the future" has no clue. They're going to suck for a long time. 

I could see 3 straight years of no playoffs a real possibility.

Emmanuel Sanders "contract"

Meh, Peyton gone will save them a lot of cash, Osweiller will be cheap, by comparison, Ware may also be replaced by Barrett, freeing up money to re-sign Von Miller. They're not destitute by any means. 

25 FA's. 

a - will they bet their future on Osweiller?

b - Von is going to cost a lot

c - Both RB's, Anderson and Hillman are UFA

d - ILBs, Trevathan, Marshall, and Davis (though Marshall and Davis are RFA & ERFA respectively).

e - K,  McManus

The Broncos are a bit of an exception to how teams are run as they had kind of a strange situation.  They had a good team before Manning got there.  They had a team that made it to the divisional round of the playoffs with Tim freaking Tebow as QB.  No matter what you think of John Elway, even he wasn't dumb enough to think they were going any further than where they got if they remained with Tebow at the helm. 

The Manning thing was an opportunity of a lifetime.  Give Elway credit for 1) getting Manning to come there over somewhere else and 2) Building the kind of team around Manning that could overcome the fact that this wasn't the Manning of 2006 anymore.

We can only hope that as Rodgers can get enough talent around him for at least 1 more shot kind of like what the Broncos gave Manning.  I just wonder if say 3 years from now if the Pack still hasn't gotten Rodgers another ring, if maybe as he approaches age 36 and beyond if they don't approach things maybe a little bit differently. 

That said, I don't expect the Pack to deviate too much from the norm for the next 2 or 3 years, I think it's still going to be draft and develop with the occasional dip into FA for a bargain basement type guy.  Another 3 years without a ring?  Maybe they do start to change their philosophy a bit before the Brett Hundley era begins..

Denver's cap situation is hardly "toast".  If Manning retires and Ryan Clady is cut (as expected) , they go into free agency with ~$39m in cap space.  Their cap issues have more to do with their own players exceeding their current contracts than it does bad free agent signings.  Isn't that what you want?  They're slated for less than $1m in dead money for 2016.  That's pretty good cap management, if you ask me.  And they're Super Bowl window was open for 4 years, starting in 2011, so hardly an "all in for one year and cap hell after" situation.  

The Broncos avoided the Jarius Byrds, etc. who under perform their FA contracts.  They did a great job scouting outside free agents and signing the right ones.  Maybe no one else is, but I'm impressed a team was able to navigate that mine field as well as they did.  

DH13 posted:

DEN is also the exception to the rule.  Pretty much every other team that has added as many and as expensive FA's as DEN has mostly suck.  And their cap is toast.  SEA and NE draft and patch (FA) very well.  PIT mostly D+D.  ARZ has a few FA's.

Besides Denver, Arizona has a lot of FAs. They also traded for their QB.

Carolina has a lot of FAs and made trades including for TE Olsen.

NE made the most trades in the NFL over the past few years and signs both high-profile and under-the-radar FAs.

Seattle made high-profile trades for Marshawn Lynch, Jimmie Graham, and Percy Harvin. The Seahawks also use free agency to patch holes and to play prominent roles like DEs Michael Bennett & Cliff Avril.

The Steelers are the most like GB. For example, they had 3 players who (like James Jones) left Pittsburgh and came back to play for them in James Harrison, William Gay, and Matt Spaeith. But they had several veterans on the roster who were signed away or traded from other teams in RB DeAngelo Williams, WR Darius Hayward-Bey, C Cody Wallace, QB Mike Vick, DT Cam Thomas, S Mike Mitchell, S Will Allen, CB Brandon Boykin, & K Shaun Suisham.

No team in the NFL has fewer players who have been on other NFL rosters than Green Bay and it is not even close.  

We should stop pining for Denver's players when the defensive coordinator is what we need.  

Like Wade Phillips, the retread that gets run out of every town after a couple years wherever he goes? Give him some talent and even HE can field an all-time great D. 

Wade's issues are as a Head Coach, he's always been a tremendous DC. 

The big question is: Did TT get the Mexicans to pay for the wall he built around Green Bay? 

Dom has always had plenty of talent.  Talent that perpetually under-performs for him.  

Wade is a better coordinator.  

Both suck as head coaches.  

Wade is a better coordinator than Dom? I hope you're being sarcastic. 

I wont rehash the same argument we have had 2,000 times, but Dom fielded a D that was 1st in points in 2010 with far less talent than Wade had this year. 

Denver last 6 # 1 picks

D. Thomas, WR

V. Miller, LB

D. Wolfe, DT

S. Williams, DT

B. Roby, DB

S. Ray, DE

Round 1 picks for Thompson over the past 7 seasons

Raji and CM3

Bulaga

Sherrod

Perry

Datone

HaHa

Randall (Rollins in the 2nd)

Dom has plenty of talent.

In Perry and Datone vs. Williams and Wolfe, I'd definitely take the latter. 

Tdog posted:

ChilliJon posted:

Play that I'll remember for a while. 3rd and 9. Something like 5:20 left in the game. Ball around the Denver 30. 6 point game. Kubiak dials up a run up the middle for 1 yard. 

Kubiak was so terrified of gambling with Mannings dead arm that he thought a run, punt, and his defense was a far better option than letting Manning pass. (he was dead right doing what he did) But I thought to myself, self, that's the last we'll ever see of Manning. 

I told my boy on that one "here comes one of the biggest passes of Peyton's life"...   but Kubiak made the right call.

What was the deepest throw that Manning attempted last night? Did he throw a single ball more than 15-20 yards downfield?

Grave Digger posted:

Wade is a better coordinator than Dom? I hope you're being sarcastic. 

I wont rehash the same argument we have had 2,000 times, but Dom fielded a D that was 1st in points in 2010 with far less talent than Wade had this year. 

DH13 posted:

Peyton threw a handful of really ugly balls last night.  Probably should have had two more picks.  Just can't get the ball to a certain spot as quickly as he would like anymore.  It was hard to watch but hell, he went out on top.  Both D's were pretty fierce.  I don't know if we could have beat either of them with a full roster.

I think it was one of those cases where you can see that the brain knew what to do but the body can no longer do it.  HIs passes were ducks most of the time and to me it was kind of sad to see.  I have never been a huge fan of his but I do appreciate all that he has done and now it is time to ride off and sell pizzas. 

Dom has plenty of round picks are good, but what's the glaring lack of talent that has plagued this team since 2011? Arguably the 2nd most important position on the entire defenses after pass rusher; a position that tends to separate championship defenses from just good defenses; a position that both Carolina and Denver have superb talent at that GB doesn't or hasn't. I'll give you a hint: It isn't the DT, DE, OLB, CB, or Safety. It's pretty clear that you can't field a championship D without even having good talent at this position. Almost enough talent isn't enough talent.

Yeah, Peyton really dropped off this year, the Packer game excepted, he was on fire that night.  Ugh.  Living out here I watched nearly every game.  The thing he did to allow Denver to win the SB was to swallow his pride and let Kubiak run the offense.  Early on it was a battle between Kubiak and Manning and the team hit some bumps.  After being benched PM figured out he had to let the defense and Kubiak's rushing offense win.  Oddly, at the most important position in the game he was really just along for the ride. 

CUPackFan posted:

The Broncos avoided the Jarius Byrds, etc. who under perform their FA contracts.  They did a great job scouting outside free agents and signing the right ones.  Maybe no one else is, but I'm impressed a team was able to navigate that mine field as well as they did.  

I have been surprised at how good a GM Elway has been.  He has made good calls in both free agency and the draft.  

I would rank safety and corner as more important, but that is purely subjective.  

It is a shame Dom can't coach some kid up to be a better middle linebacker.  He was in love with AJ Hawk though.  

DH13 posted:

DEN is also the exception to the rule.  Pretty much every other team that has added as many and as expensive FA's as DEN has mostly suck.  And their cap is toast.  SEA and NE draft and patch (FA) very well.  PIT mostly D+D.  ARZ has a few FA's.

Draft and Patch, that's a perfect description of where I wish Thompson would go.  I like it.

Grave Digger posted:

Dom has plenty of round picks are good, but what's the glaring lack of talent that has plagued this team since 2011? Arguably the 2nd most important position on the entire defenses after pass rusher; a position that tends to separate championship defenses from just good defenses; a position that both Carolina and Denver have superb talent at that GB doesn't or hasn't. I'll give you a hint: It isn't the DT, DE, OLB, CB, or Safety. It's pretty clear that you can't field a championship D without even having good talent at this position. Almost enough talent isn't enough talent.

But according to that article with the source "in the know", TT doesn't value that position.

Herschel posted:

Goalline posted:

Herschel posted:

 

While some, like Talib, were "big money", guys like Sanders were pretty reasonable deals. 

Great, great. Now let me know when we can draft Von Miller. That is the real reason the Donkeys are champs. Emmanuel Sanders? You have to be kidding me. Should we also sign a Peyton Manning type QB with 15 years of experience, a weak arm, and a penchant for INTs?

They have Clay Matthews already. The fact is, the Broncos made some prudent investments, not just "big money, flashy" additions. Most aren't expecting the latter type, as nice as they may be. The former, however, can get teams over the hump and allow for draft flexibility at the same time.  

 

TT does a nice job drafting, but when he flops there's no fall back to cover the gaping hole. 

So, TT never signs any free agents? He just doesn't sign them ALL. For every team like the Broncos who signed some free agents to help them get over, there are multiple teams in cap hell because of their spending habits.

If you can name the player who will GUARANTEE us a Super Bowl, am sure TT will happily pull the trigger.

Having easily-exploited, gaping holes almost guarantees you WON'T win the Super Bowl. TT basically hasn't signed dick for free agents. Two in 10 years that have done anything? That's somehow a great record in your eyes when they repeatedly trotted out a cavalcade of crap at safety and ILB?

I would say FS and MLB are 2a and 2b in the list of importance. You can hide average talent at CB, GB started rookie Sam Shields in the SB and was forced to play Jarrett Bush more than they would have liked. When AJ Hawk is the best of the MLBs you have, you're kind of forced to start him.

Well Goalline, with that attitude you would never sign a free agent.  Is that really what you want?  

The ultimatums and absolutes that get thrown around on this board are crazy.  No one is saying sign EVERY free agent.  But would it be so bad to see TT bring in a free agent ILB and TE that are considered above average starters?  Go back and read my historical posts - I'm a huge TT and "draft and develop" supporter.  I love it b/c i can grow attached to these players knowing they'll be around awhile. But this team has been to 1 NFC Championship since their Super Bowl and with recent Super Bowl winners using free agency as heavily as they did, it's probably time to question whether TT shifted from a 48:4 draft to free agency roster ratio (Guion, Peppers, Kuhn and J Jones), to maybe 44:8 ratio (and I don't consider UDFA's as the free agency I'm talking about).  

Free Agents wouldn't necessarily have made the difference. If GB drafted Brandon Marshall instead of Jerron McMillan, who went 9 picks later to Jacksonville, its possible we end up with a much better D.

As has been stated 1,000 times on this board: we don't know the specifics of TT courting free agents. He might have targeted and pursued multiple, but refused to get in a bidding war. That's not a bad thing. Teams that are good at drafting are likely equally good at retaining players, so it's not like TT is passing on the cream of the crop every year. When a 34 year old Karlos Dansby is one of the top FA LBs available, I don't think it's a bad thing to pump the breaks and ask if the team is better off targeting a rookie player to grow in the scheme. It's not like there are half a dozen young, talented players that can be had for any reasonable price tag anymore. Heck look at what Davon House and Tramon got in FA...no team is a Davon House away from a SB. 

Grave Digger posted:

Dom [snip] Almost enough talent isn't enough talent.

So, your position is that without talent Dom can't be expected to do much of anything as a defense.   

Grave Digger posted:

Like Wade Phillips [snip] Give him some talent and even HE can field an all-time great D. 

Which is no different than Wade Phillips.

So, clearly your position must be that DC's are fungible, and it's all about the talent.

So why the passionate defense of Dom Capers every time someone discusses him, especially commenting on his lack of performance?  

Wade's last 7 seasons as a DC: 18, 13, 10, 2, 7, 7, 1 in yards. 11, 13, 7, 4, 9, 24, 4 in points. Averages out to 8th in yards and 10th in points.

Dom's last 7 seasons as a DC: 2, 5, 32, 11, 25, 15, 15 in yards. 7, 2, 19, 11, 24, 13, 12 in points. Averages out to 15th in yards and 12th in points.

I wouldn't say passionate, it's a boring time and Bong is usually game for a good argument. 

When Wade Phillips can win a SB and field an all-time great defense I think it's fair to say that talent can make almost any coordinator look like a genius...there are obviously exceptions. Wade Phillips fielded a poor defense in Houston in 2013 giving up 26.8 points per game which was 24th in the league...tied with GB ironically. TT invested in a pass rusher, a Safety, and some depth and we jumped to 13th the next year. Wade Phillips takes over a Denver defense loaded to the gills with elite talent and unsurprisingly fields an all-time great defense. Heck look at Atlanta and Jacksonville, are those HCs fielding #1 defenses like they did in Seattle? No.

My position isn't that Dom is some gem that we are lucky to have, my position is simply: what's going to change by finding a new DC? It's the same talent. They were 12th in scoring in 2015, what would Ray Horton (for example) do with these pieces to get us to #1? The answer is nothing. The answer is bring in more talent and if you're bringing in talent anyway then why not stick with the guy who you already know is capable of fielding a #1 defense when he has the pieces? Find talent like Denver has and it doesn't matter if it's Capers or Oshbaul running the D. 

"What's going to change?"

I'm hoping with the right guy, talent gets elevated.  That would be something new.  

Brandon Marshall on Panthers: 'They did everything that we saw on film ... That's the crazy thing' https://t.co/lTlmjPVN9F

— Around The NFL (@AroundTheNFL) February 8, 2016

"We do what we do..."

Here's where my head is to your question about "what changes" if they did make a change.

No one knows.  I do know that with the talent that's been assembled since 2011, the defense has been mediocre at best, and downright pathetic at many other points.  Perhaps a new POV and voice at the top would be a welcome change.  Perhaps a new DC would take a different spin on the talent we do have here vs becoming set in your ways over time which naturally happens..  Just like some players need a change of scenery to revive a career or enable new levels of performance, I think you're seeing many people be in the camp that since it's unrealistic that we see TT draft/sign a bunch of pro bowl talent, perhaps a new voice of leadership would be the most effective way of trying to change things up for the better.  Maybe not though!  No one really knows if a change would improve things.

That said, I am of the "It's about the Jimmy and Joe's more than the X's and O's" camp, and do think the defense needs some talent upgrades.  But, I see nothing in Dom Capers that makes me think replacing him hurts the team all that much, and the chance of getting better with a new voice of leadership is worth it to me...

Under Capers D, they also made the current version of Peyton Manning look like Manning of the early 2000s. And up until this season, his D also had no answers for Kaeperdik or Russell Favre. And then there are the brainfarts that inexplicably occur during the playoffs like leaving Larry Fitzgerald wide open in OT or the late meltdown in Seattle the playoffs before that.

This defense is certainly better. But there are those instances where his D goes to schit or short circuits at completely mind boggling moments.

The defense has been better every since Co-Defensive Coordinator Mike McStupidface moved Clay Matthews to middle linebacker.  

Problem is McStupidface is also the best offensive coordinator on the team too.  

What does that tell you when you have to put your best edge rusher in to plug the gaping wound in the middle rather than using him where he's most comfortable and best?