Skip to main content

Henry posted:

Somebody better check out back of 1265 for any mass burials or border concentration camps.

Yes!!!! Tyranny!!!!! This is like the “Stand Down Soldier” scene in The Rock. Only it’s real. Kind of. 

Packdog posted:
GreenNgoldBlood posted:

Don't understand all the Jimmy Graham blasting...Did those of you that are hating on him watch a single Tennessee game last year?? Obviously not, because if you did, you'd know who Delanie Walker is and how big of a role he played in ML's offense last year. Delanie Walker's role=Jimmy Graham's role this year.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Delanie Walker was injured in Game 1 last year - out for the season. He is a underrated TE and has had multiple good years in Tenn..... none of which were with Matt LeFleur. 

Yeah, but did you watch that game? He was targeted 7 times and caught 4 balls. He had a huge role in, uh, that one game. I'm guessing no one watched that game or any Titans games including GNGB. 

Packdog posted:
GreenNgoldBlood posted:

Don't understand all the Jimmy Graham blasting...Did those of you that are hating on him watch a single Tennessee game last year?? Obviously not, because if you did, you'd know who Delanie Walker is and how big of a role he played in ML's offense last year. Delanie Walker's role=Jimmy Graham's role this year.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Delanie Walker was injured in Game 1 last year - out for the season. He is a underrated TE and has had multiple good years in Tenn..... none of which were with Matt LeFleur. 

michiganjoe posted:

Impressive use of the scrap heap by the Packers.

Is it an impressive use of the scrap heap or evidence that our drafting has sucked?

I listened to a LaFleur presser yesterday and he was asked about having only two quarterbacks on the roster.  He said you can never have enough quarterbacks and if they had another good one, the Packers would have kept three.

BrainDed posted:
michiganjoe posted:

Impressive use of the scrap heap by the Packers.

Is it an impressive use of the scrap heap or evidence that our drafting has sucked?

"Our" drafting?  Given all of your complaining, I take it you assume only GB makes poor draft choices.  You'd be wrong.  Below are a couple of articles for your reading pleasure (note that I didn't spend a lot of time looking so I don't know if there's anything more recent):

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/...ks-classes-2012-2016

https://bleacherreport.com/art...e-of-the-past-decade

Fedya posted:

if they had another good one, the Packers would have kept three.

By that logic, the Vikings shouldn't be keeping any quarterbacks.

One a decade you make a funny.

Gebins, it was getting late in the decade.

BrainDed posted:

You’re right.  Packers draft selections have been just fine and it has nothing to do with the need to have 15 UDFA’s on the roster.  

I'm glad you've finally seen the light.  So maybe you'll do a lot less whining now.  Whaddya' think?

BrainDed posted:

You’re right.  Packers draft selections have been just fine and it has nothing to do with the need to have 15 UDFA’s on the roster.  

15 of 53 is 28%. That's less than than the league average.

Doesn't matter how you find them.

Screenshot_20190904-060756_Twitter

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Screenshot_20190904-060756_Twitter

That 28% doesn't account for our need to go on a FA binge this year.     Amos, Smith, Smith, New ILB.   That's 4 starters on D right there.    On offense we have Turner, Lewis, and Graham.   Now add Lazzard to the UDFA count and you should also count Tramon Williams as a FA too.  So, that's a total of 24 players equaling 45% of the roster.   If you exclude the 3 specialists, its 49%.

I don't thing I'm being a contrarian here with the opinion that the draft selections haven't been good.   

Drafting was poor in the last few years of TT's run. No one with half a brain is disputing that. But now you are just backpedaling on your assumption that having 15 undrafted guys on the roster was some kind of abnormal number. It's not. 

Oh, so now free agents that were drafted by others teams are a problem too. The Packers surely now have more free agents on their team than the average NFL team, right?

Hell, let's count Tramon TWICE. He's a UDFA AND LATER RETURNED AS A FREE AGENT! OMG! 

Don't stop there. How about anyone drafted after the 3rd round? Anyone with more than 4 vowels in their name? So many possibilities. 

Last edited by PackerHawk

How is finding good UDFA's indicative of poor drafting? They don't need 15 UDFA's, they didn't just find warm bodies to include on the 53, they believe (and I mostly agree) that they've found 15 good UDFA's that will be contributing. I don't see the two as related. I see only GMO, Tony Brown, Kumerow, Lancaster, Tonyan, and Vitale as players who will see significant PT and all of them have thus far shown an ability to contribute positively. I won't call them all starting quality, but I would expect GMO and Vitale to actually be starters and while Vitale is unproven I think GMO has proven himself to be starting quality. So you're looking at a lot of developmental guys with upside like Boyle, Shep, Light, etc. who likely won't play but could develop into quality players. There's nothing wrong with the back end of the roster being populated by UDFA's like Boyle and Shep. It's not indicative of anything. 

The correlation between having to sign FA's and poor drafting is very real, but is a completely separate discussion.  

"How is finding good UDFA's indicative of poor drafting? "

It's in an indication that you have roster spots to fill.   You're assuming because they made our roster they are good.   That's not always or even often accurate.   We have suffered from a lack of quality depth for a few years now.    I believe that is in part due to poor draft results.  

Every year we drool over the UDFA of camp and rarely do they turn out to be more than a warm body.    The Tramon Williams and Sam Shields of the NFL are rare and we haven't had one in a while. 

Fair to say both the scrap heap and FA are tools to supplement shortcomings in drafting. Scrap heap consistently has produced serviceable players who contribute (Tyler Lancaster a recent example).

Last edited by michiganjoe

I don't see them as related at all. You're talking about UDFA's making up the bottom 1-2% of the roster. They're not seeking out UDFA's to fill important gaps on the roster, which ultimately is the consequence of drafting poorly. They're looking at developmental players who they believe will become contributors at some point...Lane Taylor, GMO, Tramon, etc. are great examples of this. UDFA is just an extension of the draft, not an extension of free agency. If we were looking at UDFA's to start immediately then yeah that's a huge issue, but that's not the case. 

Last edited by Grave Digger

One could argue that getting Shields and Tramon Williams as UDFAs (or street FAs in Tramon's case) was as important to winning the 2011 Super Bowl as anything other than drafting Rodgers and signing Woodson. 

I like the fact that they are turning over the bottom of the roster and seeing if they find contributors rather than holding on to guys like Carl Bradford, Janis, Spriggs, etc. for, in some cases, years after it was clear they weren't going to improve to be high-level contributors. The fact that Gute cut J'Mon Moore instead of some UDFA WRs or moved on from Kizer despite trading Randall for him is a great sign. Every GM makes mistakes. It's the guys that aren't afraid to move on from them and not keep guys around just because of a sunk cost who tend to have long-term success. 

BrainDed posted:

"I don't see them as related at all. You're talking about UDFA's making up the bottom 1-2% of the roster. "

How did we go from 28% to 2%?

Because the fact that the other 26% of UDFA’s on the roster are viable contributors, making the fact that they’re UDFA’s completely irrelevant. Who ****in cares if a contributor is a UDFA or a R1 draft pick? Kumerow beat out a 4th round draft pick for a roster spot, I’d rather have the better player than the draft pick. So your problem is the remaining 2% who still need to prove themselves and are just here based on potential. 

BrainDed posted:

That 28% doesn't account for our need to go on a FA binge this year.   

Correct, it accounts for the UDFA's they signed, which was your complaint. Right?

BrainDed posted:

  Amos, Smith, Smith, New ILB.   That's 4 starters on D right there.    On offense we have Turner, Lewis, and Graham.   Now add Lazzard to the UDFA count and you should also count Tramon Williams as a FA too.  So, that's a total of 24 players equaling 45% of the roster.   If you exclude the 3 specialists, its 49%.  

So, they shouldn't sing FA's to build a winning team?

BrainDed posted:

It's in an indication that you have roster spots to fill.   You're assuming because they made our roster they are good.   That's not always or even often accurate.   We have suffered from a lack of quality depth for a few years now.    I believe that is in part due to poor draft results.  

 unpacking this, paraphrasing and noting some key points made by brainded....

=> You have to fill roster spots.  Yes, that is a CBA requirement.

=> FA's and UDFA's often are not good, regardless of making a NFL roster.   Yes, ~ 1200 players were just fired from a job they had for about 6 weeks. A job they likely have dreamed about for much of their life.

=> "We have suffered from a lack of quality depth for a few years now. I believe that is in part due to poor draft results."

Awesome thought process overall here brainded. But your last statement really tied the post together. The Packers lack depth and talent due to poor drafting, so let's rely on drafting to restock because the FA's and UDFA's they sign(ed) often are not good.

Grave Digger posted:
BrainDed posted:

"I don't see them as related at all. You're talking about UDFA's making up the bottom 1-2% of the roster. "

How did we go from 28% to 2%?

Because the fact that the other 26% of UDFA’s on the roster are viable contributors, making the fact that they’re UDFA’s completely irrelevant. Who ****in cares if a contributor is a UDFA or a R1 draft pick? Kumerow beat out a 4th round draft pick for a roster spot, I’d rather have the better player than the draft pick. So your problem is the remaining 2% who still need to prove themselves and are just here based on potential. 

Lol. You just pulled that 2% out of thin air.   Realistically, of the UDFAs who is a viable contributor.   Gmo and Vitale for sure and really Vitale is a FA.     T brown, Greene,  Tonyan, Kumerow are maybes.   They don’t have enough snaps in the NFL to proclaim they are any good.    If any of the others see a large amount of snaps we are in trouble. 

Look, you see it optimistically.  Those guys are all destined to be the next Donald Driver.   I’m pessimistic, I see the majority of them out of the league in the near future.   So that’s the difference.  I would have hoped more of our 1 - 4 draft picks were taking those roster spots with an occasional surprise in 5-7.   We’ve been okay in the late rounds really, it’s been the early that’s hurt us. 

Hungry5 posted:
BrainDed posted:

It's in an indication that you have roster spots to fill.   You're assuming because they made our roster they are good.   That's not always or even often accurate.   We have suffered from a lack of quality depth for a few years now.    I believe that is in part due to poor draft results.  

 unpacking this, paraphrasing and noting some key points made by brainded....

=> You have to fill roster spots.  Yes, that is a CBA requirement.

=> FA's and UDFA's often are not good, regardless of making a NFL roster.   Yes, ~ 1200 players were just fired from a job they had for about 6 weeks. A job they likely have dreamed about for much of their life.

=> "We have suffered from a lack of quality depth for a few years now. I believe that is in part due to poor draft results."

Awesome thought process overall here brainded. But your last statement really tied the post together. The Packers lack depth and talent due to poor drafting, so let's rely on drafting to restock because the FA's and UDFA's they sign(ed) often are not good.

At no point did I elude to only relying on drafting as the only way to go.  In fact, isn’t that your opinion?   At least it was until the day TT got canned because you were his #1 parrot.   SQAUWK Draft and develop SQUAWK. Chickens in the barn, SQUAWK.    

I’m simply saying we have had to rely heavily on these types of players more than is desired because we have missed in the draft too often.   So yeah, when you miss, you have to, and should, utilize other tools. 

Last edited by BrainDed

I believe you find the best 53+10, no matter where or how.

That's what Wolf did. What Thompson did. And I expect Gutekunst will too.

Wolf and Thompson had very good results with their methods.

UDFA, Plan 'B' FA, Draft, UFA... all options.

PackerHawk posted:

So, above average drafting but we still have too many UDFA's on the roster. 

Above average drafting? Thompson never had even a good draft after 2009, and he had some terrible ones thrown in there. Plus he had more picks than about any other team in that same time period.

Thompson hit on Rodgers. Everything else he ever did was made by that one pick. And he tried NOT to make that pick when given the chance. He looked to trade it for the entire time on the clock.

AtTheMurph posted:
PackerHawk posted:

So, above average drafting but we still have too many UDFA's on the roster. 

Above average drafting?

In the context I was using (which you removed), yes. 

Not a fan of his work after 2013 but that's not the point here. 

Last edited by PackerHawk
AtTheMurph posted:
PackerHawk posted:

So, above average drafting but we still have too many UDFA's on the roster. 

Above average drafting? Thompson never had even a good draft after 2009, and he had some terrible ones thrown in there. Plus he had more picks than about any other team in that same time period.

Murph, I've gotta disagree with 2009 being the year that Ted's drafting began declining.

Ted's 2010 draft included Bulaga (excellent) James Starks (excellent for the 6th round), Marshall Newhouse (who was still in camp this season as a 5th round pick), CJ Wilson who bounced around the league for several years as a 7th round pick, Mike Neal who was a not a complete bust in round 2, Morgan Burnett who is still in the league and was a decent player for many years in round 3, and Quarless who had a moment or two as a 4th round pick.

I'd point to 2011 as the year Ted's drafting began going downhill and it only got worse from there. 

I've always wondered why Ted seemed to do so much better at drafting during the first half of his time as Packers GM, 2005-2010, than he did in the second half, 2011-2017.

By the way, can anyone recall when Schneider left for Seattle, Dorsey departed for KC, and McKenzie took over in Oakland? 

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×