Re: Team needs

lukeyMember

If Favre can play at a high level for another year or two after this season (given his age, doesn't seem all that likely) or if Rodgers proves to be a decent replacement for Favre right out of the gate (that finally looks like a possibility), the Packers have a chance to contend. On defense, they have everything the need except a capable pair of safeties. On a sidenote, I think it'd kind of funny how few people have noticed that the biggest difference between the terrible '04 defense and the present unit isn't personnel--obviously replacing the scrub LCB crew of Carrol and the other clowns with Woodson has made a big difference, but the bigger differences are a result of how much better the Wolf-Sherman era players are performing. Guys like Jenkins, Williams, and Kampmman appear to have made huge leaps, and the defensive line seems to have gone from worse than ordinary to superb.

On offense, the needs are greater. Again, let's hope Rodgers can be the guy at QB. The interior line finally looks OK, but the Packers lost their best playmaker from '04, Javon Walker, to a contract squabble. Ahman Green was still a great back in '04. Age and injuries took their toll. I don't think Jackson will ever be able to fill his shoes. Hopefully Thompson will become more proactive about finding playmakers for this team. The window might not be open as long as people think. The corners and tackles at present are excellent--a huge advantage--but they're also old enough that they could hit a wall at any point.

I think this team is closer than people think. But I also think they might not be close for as long as people think.

8/24/0710:51 AM

Original Post

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LSU4GBMember

The balance is pretty tenuous in the NFL these days.

Add one legit star and GB's an upper-tier team.
Take away one (maybe Driver) and they're sub-par.

The team is a work in progress. Their best players are on the wrong side of 30 for the most part. That stated they appear to have some ascending youth.

As long as Thompson continues to add players they should be OK. If he can manage to hit on a true star - esp. at an offensive skill position - then GB could make a run at a title.

In the end, if GB had a Reggie Bush or LT or Gates or possibly even LJ Smith/Dallas Clark/L. Maroney....they'd be competing for the NFC Championship...instead of MAYBE the playoffs.

Who knows? They may have future impact guys right now. KGB and Driver spent years on the PS...

Maybe Morency stays healthy and gives them an Addai-like performance w/ Jackson in reserve. We'll know a lot more after PHIL IMO.

8/24/0711:00 AM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
On a sidenote, I think it'd kind of funny how few people have noticed that the biggest difference between the terrible '04 defense and the present unit isn't personnel--obviously replacing the scrub LCB crew of Carrol and the other clowns with Woodson has made a big difference, but the bigger differences are a result of how much better the Wolf-Sherman era players are performing. Guys like Jenkins, Williams, and Kampmman appear to have made huge leaps, and the defensive line seems to have gone from worse than ordinary to superb.

What a joke. There are 7 guys left on this squad from Sherman's tenure, 7 guys. That's freakin' pathetic for his tenure. You think these guys would be doing as well without other players around them? It was MM that finally moved Jenkins to DE. You think Barnett is going to perform at a better level without guys like Pickett, Jolly, Cole and Williams in front of him as well as Poppinga and Hawk on each side?

The biggest difference is the defense is a whole unit with talent and DEPTH across the board. Doesn't matter how great one player is if he's got a bunch of turds surrounding him. A good defense works as a unit and two years ago it was anything but a unit.

8/24/0711:39 AM

lunkerMember

I was thinking last night that the offense is just a stud running back and a quality tight end away from really being a quality team.

Then, all of a sudden Bubba woke up - what was that? Why can't he do that all the time? Nevertheless, I still think we need a quality tight end.

Then, we need a new red zone playbook. Remember when Favre used to bootleg - it bought time for the receivers to be open - where did that play go? We use to throw to the corner. We used to throw to the tight end, or running back. AND, at about 20 yards away from the goalline, Favre would spread the field and throw a dart. I think we need to go back to these plays.

8/24/0711:46 AM

lukeyMember

quote:
Originally posted by Henry:
quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
On a sidenote, I think it'd kind of funny how few people have noticed that the biggest difference between the terrible '04 defense and the present unit isn't personnel--obviously replacing the scrub LCB crew of Carrol and the other clowns with Woodson has made a big difference, but the bigger differences are a result of how much better the Wolf-Sherman era players are performing. Guys like Jenkins, Williams, and Kampmman appear to have made huge leaps, and the defensive line seems to have gone from worse than ordinary to superb.

What a joke. There are 7 guys left on this squad from Sherman's tenure, 7 guys. That's freakin' pathetic for his tenure. You think these guys would be doing as well without other players around them? It was MM that finally moved Jenkins to DE. You think Barnett is going to perform at a better level without guys like Pickett, Jolly, Cole and Williams in front of him as well as Poppinga and Hawk on each side?

The biggest difference is the defense is a whole unit with talent and DEPTH across the board. Doesn't matter how great one player is if he's got a bunch of turds surrounding him. A good defense works as a unit and two years ago it was anything but a unit.

No, the biggest difference UP FRONT is that guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Williams, and Cole are playing much better now. Is that partially a tribute to coaching? I'd think so. TT's added a couple studs in Hawk and Woodson. But I wouldn't go overboard with the credit on those moves. When you draft #5 overall, you should get a player like Hawk. And when you spend many millions on a corner, he should give you at least a few good seasons.

8/24/0711:52 AM

MichiganPackerMember

quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry:
quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
On a sidenote, I think it'd kind of funny how few people have noticed that the biggest difference between the terrible '04 defense and the present unit isn't personnel--obviously replacing the scrub LCB crew of Carrol and the other clowns with Woodson has made a big difference, but the bigger differences are a result of how much better the Wolf-Sherman era players are performing. Guys like Jenkins, Williams, and Kampmman appear to have made huge leaps, and the defensive line seems to have gone from worse than ordinary to superb.

What a joke. There are 7 guys left on this squad from Sherman's tenure, 7 guys. That's freakin' pathetic for his tenure. You think these guys would be doing as well without other players around them? It was MM that finally moved Jenkins to DE. You think Barnett is going to perform at a better level without guys like Pickett, Jolly, Cole and Williams in front of him as well as Poppinga and Hawk on each side?

The biggest difference is the defense is a whole unit with talent and DEPTH across the board. Doesn't matter how great one player is if he's got a bunch of turds surrounding him. A good defense works as a unit and two years ago it was anything but a unit.

No, the biggest difference UP FRONT is that guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Williams, and Cole are playing much better now. Is that partially a tribute to coaching? I'd think so. TT's added a couple studs in Hawk and Woodson. But I wouldn't go overboard with the credit on those moves. When you draft #5 overall, you should get a player like Hawk. And when you spend many millions on a corner, he should give you at least a few good seasons.

I agree. With the money they are paying Woodson he should be at least a borderline Pro Bowl player. But at least Thompson seems to have spent the money in a productive way. Compare that with the Joe Johnson signing. If Joe Johnson would have been as good as Woodson, the Packers probably at least get to the NFC championship game and maybe the Super Bowl.

8/24/0712:11 PM

CHEEZEMember

Being good nor salary are not the issue here, it is contribution to the team. Joe Johnson might have been a good player (Pro-Bowler 1998 & 2000) in his time, but injuries (8 games in 2 years) obviously limited his contribution. You cannot contribute if you are not on the field and he basically never was. So obviously spending millions on a player does not make him a contributor. It is coaching putting a player in position to make plays, drive, ability to play with pain, ability (luck) to not sustain serious injury as well as his talent that has allowed Woodson (or anyone) to make a great contribution in one season with the Packers.

IMHO TT has done a great job turning over the roster and filling most positions with players and coaches who seem to be moving in the right direction. The team obvioulsy needs a contribution at the running back position to achieve anything offensively and hopefully they have those players on their roster. Other than RB and TE I am not sure if there are any other positions where both depth and ability of the current player on the depth chart are in question.

8/24/0712:29 PM

WolfPackMember

add a back like LT to this team and were capable of going to the Super Bowl. though thats true for a few other teams as well.

a RB who can create his own ydg and requires defenses to honor and prepare for totally opens up the passing game and the offense is suddenly potent.

add that to the young and aggressive D and were in business.

a return stud like a Howard or Hester woudl really make us explosive. great field position would help this offense tremendously.

a big, hard hitting safety no more long gains on 3rd and forever. these crappy receivers are not afraid to go over the middle because of our panty waists back there. a defensive field general like Butler or heck even Sharper at times, is needed.

I know these guys dont grow on trees, but theyre guys that put you from a mid tier team to SB contenders.

8/24/071:43 PM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by lukey:

No, the biggest difference UP FRONT is that guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Williams, and Cole are playing much better now. Is that partially a tribute to coaching? I'd think so. TT's added a couple studs in Hawk and Woodson. But I wouldn't go overboard with the credit on those moves. When you draft #5 overall, you should get a player like Hawk. And when you spend many millions on a corner, he should give you at least a few good seasons.

I'm happy for you.

Pickett, Poppinga, Jolly are all apart of a TEAM defense. Who was responsible for moving Jenkins to DE and then signing him to a contract? MM and TT. You think he would've gotten the opportunity as a tweener DT where he was stuck before? Who re-signed Kampman and jettisoned the other garbage on the line? Who completely restocked the defensive talent across the board, especially depth?

Absolutely the front 4 improvement has been excellent but they all benefit from each other. If you're going to tout Williams development, then talk about Jolly who is a solid rotational guy like Williams. If you're going to tout Kampman's performance, then tout Pickett filling the middle so Kampman could get to the QB. If you're going to praise Jenkins then praise him at RDE where he never got the chance to play before. If you're going to go on about Barnett then talk about Hawk and Poppinga and the scary speed and hitting they bring.

Here's what's funny about your statement on Hawk and Woodson. Aren't you one of those that complained about TT's lack of spending cash. If you're going to give a nod to Sherman what the hell happened to his FA signings? How the hell did the Packers end up drafting at #5 to get Hawk and does TT get credit for taking a sure thing when fans, including myself, wanted something more "flashy"?

They play as a team. 7 guys left on this squad from Sherman and the reason why they've developed is they have solid players around them in a TEAM environment to let them use their excellent skills to full potential.

8/24/071:45 PM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by WolfPack:
add a back like LT to this team and were capable of going to the Super Bowl. though thats true for a few other teams as well.

a RB who can create his own ydg and requires defenses to honor and prepare for totally opens up the passing game and the offense is suddenly potent.

add that to the young and aggressive D and were in business.

a return stud like a Howard or Hester woudl really make us explosive. great field position would help this offense tremendously.

a big, hard hitting safety no more long gains on 3rd and forever. these crappy receivers are not afraid to go over the middle because of our panty waists back there. a defensive field general like Butler or heck even Sharper at times, is needed.

I know these guys dont grow on trees, but theyre guys that put you from a mid tier team to SB contenders.

The nice thing is now the Packers can really start zeroing in on specific areas, be it in FA or the draft. Build the core first.

8/24/071:49 PM

Grave DiggerMember

Next years draft we'll need to address:

1st - Left Tackle - Clifton isn't going to last much longer.

2nd - Runningback - Even if Morency works out he's already 27 and won't have that many years left.

3rd - Tight End - Unless TT brings in a good TE (like L.J. Smith), we'll need a TE that is fast and a good receiver.

4th - Guard - I think Spitz will take over at Center in a year or two so we'll need competition for Barbre and Moll at guard.

5th - Corner - Even though Bush and Blackmon are looking alright, I think we need more depth.

6th - Fullback - We need a guy who can be the long term starter. Hall might be that guy, who knows but I think we still need to look.

7th - Linebacker - Depth.

8/24/071:57 PM

JJSDSitzpinkler Schadenfreude

I agree with your whole list except for LT, GD. It seems as though between Barbre and Colledge, they've got two pretty good long-term prospects there. Of course, if a Joe Thomas-like LT prospect falls into their laps, take him, but I'd put LT at the bottom of this list. We're all seeing right now that GB is getting to be pretty loaded in the trenches on both sides of the ball, and we're also beginning to see that building a team this way is smart, as it makes adding the pieces around it that much easier.

8/24/072:00 PM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Next years draft we'll need to address:

1st - Left Tackle - Clifton isn't going to last much longer.

2nd - Runningback - Even if Morency works out he's already 27 and won't have that many years left.

3rd - Tight End - Unless TT brings in a good TE (like L.J. Smith), we'll need a TE that is fast and a good receiver.

4th - Guard - I think Spitz will take over at Center in a year or two so we'll need competition for Barbre and Moll at guard.

5th - Corner - Even though Bush and Blackmon are looking alright, I think we need more depth.

6th - Fullback - We need a guy who can be the long term starter. Hall might be that guy, who knows but I think we still need to look.

7th - Linebacker - Depth.

I can't believe you didn't throw in safety on that one. I think the main three areas should be Safety, RB and TE. I also think they should be looking for another QB to develop behind Rodgers as well.

8/24/072:01 PM

JJSDSitzpinkler Schadenfreude

quote:
Originally posted by Henry:

I can't believe you didn't throw in safety on that one. I think the main three areas should be Safety, RB and TE. I also think they should be looking for another QB to develop behind Rodgers as well.

Perhaps, but with Collins/Rouse/Bigby, I don't think it's a certainty that they'll need to add something there a year from now. There is nothing going on prospect-wise at TE, a couple of question marks at RB, etc., but safety actually could be in decent shape long-term if these guys come around. Bigby looked like a heat-seeking missile last night, especially when he took on Jones-Drew head-on like he did. That was nice.

8/24/072:06 PM

phaedrusMember

Well, this is based on only last night's game.

I realize Jacksonville is known for defensive physicality. But, my concerns are the running game as a whole and wide receiver. I've got my fingers crossed that Bubba will be more than adequate (huge sigh of relief). I don't think a washed up TE can make the play he made last night.

I kind of think both concerns will gradually improve as the season progresses, with running back having less potential than WR. I think the running game is really gonna hurt us.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

8/24/072:08 PM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by JJSD:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry:

I can't believe you didn't throw in safety on that one. I think the main three areas should be Safety, RB and TE. I also think they should be looking for another QB to develop behind Rodgers as well.

Perhaps, but with Collins/Rouse/Bigby, I don't think it's a certainty that they'll need to add something there a year from now. There is nothing going on prospect-wise at TE, a couple of question marks at RB, etc., but safety actually could be in decent shape long-term if these guys come around. Bigby looked like a heat-seeking missile last night, especially when he took on Jones-Drew head-on like he did. That was nice.

The safety position is definitely in better shape, or so it would seem right now, but I think a solid safety prospect in the first couple rounds would be hard to pass up.

Forgot that TE isn't looking all that good this year. RB, always keep a full stable and guys like Herron aren't the answer IMO.

8/24/072:10 PM

LSU4GBMember

S, CB, and any offensive skill position.

Bush and Blackmon could easily push CB down the list a bit with sound play from scrimmage.

A good year by Collins and Bigby/whomever could do the same w/ S.

Still, Collins has a lot to prove IMO - he's the same guy that fell off the tackle on Burleson for a big gain vs. SEA. You can't pull that crap at S.

I think they like very much their mix at OL - versatility and youth. AGreed w/ jjsd that Colledge is probably their LT after '09.

Thompson, Barbre...Palmer inside...Moll out...Coston everywhere...they've got some prospects IMO.

Same w/ the front-7.

8/24/072:11 PM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by phaedrus:
Well, this is based on only last night's game.

I realize Jacksonville is known for defensive physicality. But, my concerns are the running game as a whole and wide receiver. I've got my fingers crossed that Bubba will be more than adequate (huge sigh of relief). I don't think a washed up TE can make the play he made last night.

I kind of think both concerns will gradually improve as the season progresses, with running back having less potential than WR. I think the running game is really gonna hurt us.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

The problem I have right now with the running game is the uncertainty of the whole situation. We haven't seen Morency yet and it's really hard to say what kind of scheme is going to be employed in the run offense. I do agree that the run blocking does need to be better though. I'm not terribly worried about the run game but I do suspect it'll take a bit to get some solid production going.

8/24/072:14 PM

JJSDSitzpinkler Schadenfreude

The running game does appear to be a problem right now, but that, along with the red zone plays, may be mere appearances right now. I doubt MM has shown even a fraction of the particular plays and blocking calls that they'll use in the regular season, which is perhaps why we didn't see the G's pulling, etc.

8/24/072:16 PM

PackdogMember

quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
On a sidenote, I think it'd kind of funny how few people have noticed that the biggest difference between the terrible '04 defense and the present unit isn't personnel--obviously replacing the scrub LCB crew of Carrol and the other clowns with Woodson has made a big difference, but the bigger differences are a result of how much better the Wolf-Sherman era players are performing. Guys like Jenkins, Williams, and Kampmman appear to have made huge leaps, and the defensive line seems to have gone from worse than ordinary to superb.

Disagree on "the biggest difference" comment. Not sure if you ever played football, or if you did if it was on defense, but the efectiveness of a unit is based on the unit as a whole. It's not about a couple guys or only the personnel, multiple factors contribute.... the personnel, scheme ,coaches, depth, competition....not to mention the attitude instilled. The difference is made by the unit as a whole. When it's only about a couple guys, the weekness' will always get exploited in todays football.

Players like Barnett, Kampmann, Williams, and Jenkins have made leaps along with better players surrounding them and better coaching. They were being coached by innefective stumble bums. Slowik was gawd awful as a coordinator, but even worse were Jethro Franklin and Duffner....terrible coaches. Sherman did a awful job in chosing those guys. No coincedence that the above mentioned players are starting to get it and be used properly in the cases of Jenkins and KGB.

I'd even mention that from all reports, the training program has taken a step up as well.

The personnell has changed greatly from the "terrible 04' defense to this one.

-Pickett (very good DT)
-Jenkins to DE(KGB to his best role)
-Hawk
-Poppinga
-Collins
-Woodson
-Bigby
-I'll already take our nickelback in Blackmon or Bush over Ahmad Carroll or Mike Hawtorn, etc...
-Depth and competition are better all around

Definately great news that those players are stepping up, but they also have better teammates, better coaching, a better scheme, better depth, etc....

8/24/072:20 PM

LSU4GBMember

Agred with all here pretty much.

GB was solid running vs a decent SEA defense.

GB was putrid running vs an exceptional JAX defense.

The reality is almost certainly in the middle. If they can be near adequate early then I don't doubt they'll improve as the season progresses - getting Morency back won't hurt either.

That aside IMO the true needs next year will be offensive skill players.

Signing an LJ Smith would help.

8/24/072:21 PM

Grave DiggerMember

I agree Colledge looks like their LT prospect of the future, but I'm not nuts about that. I'm not saying he couldn't be our LT of the future because I have no evidence to say one way or the other, I just like next year's crop of LTs. Colledge has looked good at guard IMO, and Barbre has been consistantly getting blown up so far. Barbre could get better, but right now I wouldn't move Colledge. I think I said it once before that Boston College LT Gosder Cherilus looks to be a very good fit for us IMO.

As for safety, I like Bigby and I like Rouse. Between those 2 and Collins I think our safety position will be fine for several years. I don't see any of them ever emerging as a Leroy Butler type, but I don't think it will be a weakness anymore.

8/24/072:21 PM

CUPackFanMember

quote:
Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Colledge has looked good at guard IMO, and Barbre has been consistantly getting blown up so far. Barbre could get better, but right now I wouldn't move Colledge.

I read that Barbre is looking great. They even mention that he looks better this year than Colledge and Spitz looked last year.

Barbre is a rock in Blocking Test

8/24/072:25 PM

LSU4GBMember

Colledge was just getting benched last year no??? or he was about to be.

I've read good things about Barbre too - and considering the level of competition jump he's making getting "blown up" is to be expected at times.

Those backup OL will get to go against an exceptional front 7 every week. If some of them don't make developmental leaps by this time next year I'll be surprised.
Having a good OL coach doesn't hurt.

GD-
Are you already sifting through tape of college OL prospects? Take a break man.

I saw where on one thread you predicted our 1st rd pick next year. Impressive.

8/24/072:29 PM

BlueshoundMember

If the team progresses as much as it appears it might this year, then I think what the team needs is for TT to make a little bigger splash in FA next year. I have fully supported his slow, methodical approach in rebuilding the foundation. But if they jump up to a wild card or above level of success, then I think it's time to begin supplementing that foundation with some intelligent spending.

8/24/072:46 PM

Grave DiggerMember

Barbre looked bad last night and the Seattle game I thought. It didn't look like he handled the bigger DTs very well at all. Even against the backups for Jacksonville he stuggled from what I saw. I'm sure he'll get better though.

No tapes LSU. I noticed him a couple times last year when I saw BC play on tv. Now that Jeff Jagodzinski is the HC over there, he'll most certainly use a very similar scheme to what we use (WCO with zone blocking). From what I've read, Cherilus is supposed to be one of the best Boston College Oline prospects ever....that's saying a lot considering some of the Olinemen that have come from there. I think it would be a pretty smooth transition for Cherilus.

8/24/072:49 PM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by LSU4GB:
Agred with all here pretty much.

GB was solid running vs a decent SEA defense.

GB was putrid running vs an exceptional JAX defense.

The reality is almost certainly in the middle. If they can be near adequate early then I don't doubt they'll improve as the season progresses - getting Morency back won't hurt either.

That aside IMO the true needs next year will be offensive skill players.

Signing an LJ Smith would help.

Smith is hurt again. I don't know what the rest of the TE field looks like but even a mid tier guy would be a plus.

I think the safest prediction on the run game is it'll be a rather unexciting RBBC approach that may not be the strength of the offense but won't be completely inept either. Who really knows.

I'm still interested to see if TT tries any late preseason trades for guys like Rayner, etc.

8/24/072:59 PM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by Grave Digger:
I agree Colledge looks like their LT prospect of the future, but I'm not nuts about that. I'm not saying he couldn't be our LT of the future because I have no evidence to say one way or the other, I just like next year's crop of LTs. Colledge has looked good at guard IMO, and Barbre has been consistantly getting blown up so far. Barbre could get better, but right now I wouldn't move Colledge. I think I said it once before that Boston College LT Gosder Cherilus looks to be a very good fit for us IMO.

As for safety, I like Bigby and I like Rouse. Between those 2 and Collins I think our safety position will be fine for several years. I don't see any of them ever emerging as a Leroy Butler type, but I don't think it will be a weakness anymore.

I agree about LT. I like Colledge but I'd rather he stayed at guard and they picked up a definitive LT in the draft. Barbre will take some work, can't all be studs right away. Hell, Coston has been a work in progress for 3 years.

I'm not sold on Rouse yet. He had all day to get that hit in last night. Not saying he won't/can't be good, I personally, haven't heard much about the guy this TC.

8/24/073:03 PM

PackerHawkMember

quote:
Originally posted by LSU4GB:
Agred with all here pretty much.

GB was solid running vs a decent SEA defense.

GB was putrid running vs an exceptional JAX defense.

The reality is almost certainly in the middle. If they can be near adequate early then I don't doubt they'll improve as the season progresses - getting Morency back won't hurt either.

I don't know why, but so often teams with supposedly good running games look like crap in the preseason. You draft a guy like Sean Alexander or Larry Johnson in FFL then check a preseason box score and you see they had 5 attempts for 10 yards. Then the regular season starts and they blow up for 150 yards and 2 TD's.

Willis McGahee had a sweet 6 rush for 3 yards performance last week. That was including a SEVEN yard run. I wonder how many Ravens fans are jumping off a bridge? I drafted Travis Henry and he put up 25 yards on 10 carries last week, including a 10 yard run. 15 yards on his other 9 carries. I guess I should cut him. Willie Parker had 4 rushes for 4 yards. Glad I didn't pick him. Ladell Betts had 12 yards on 6 carries. Rudi Johnson had 15 yards on 6 carries. Terrible. Caddy Williams managed -1 yard on 3 carries. BUST. Ahman had 19 yards on 6 carries. Edge had 11 on 5 carries. Brian Westbrook had 16 yards on 6 carries. Marshawn Lynch had 16 yards on 5 carries. Thank God Buffalo took him off the board.

That's just a single week of preseason. I'm reasonably sure that every one of these guys are much better than their stats last week.

I'll be worried about the running game if Morency returns and they can't run on the Eagles. They were 25th in the NFL giving up 4.5 YPC last year. Now I realize there is at least one person on X4 that isn't impressed by 4.5 YPC by a RB but that's not a very good average for a defense to allow for a season.

8/24/073:24 PM

CoachAt the head of the table

One factor is that they haven't opened up the entire playbook (including in the running game). It's only a handful of vanilla plays.

You still hate to see the lack of production, but that was a very good defense we were playing last night.

Barry Sanders was held to negative yardage in a game at Lambeau because there was simply no place to run, not because he wasn't a great back.

Jackson is obviously not Barry Sanders, but he needs some kind of blocking up front to be productive.

Flat out, it wasn't there last night.

Our success (or lack thereof) running the football is going to be heavily determined by how good/poor the blocking is.

8/24/073:32 PM

LSU4GBMember

It was my impression LJ Smith was being held out 'til the season...not that he was re-injured.
It's neither here nor there, though, since I suspect he'll be healthy by next UFA period...and in all likelihood they'll re-sign him anyway.
They know it's not easy to find good receiving TE's.

We've been through the Colledge debate before - many had him as a LT prospect. It's completely plausible GB believes he's their LT after Clifton's contract expires in '09.

They'll keep throwing him out there in practice when they rest Clifton and hopefully we won't have to see how he's progressed in games.

Both Colledge and Barbre have the skill set to excel at LT IMO...so we'll see if either make it out there. Crazy thing is for a coverted DL that Thompson kid flashes...
They're flush on the OL IMO...their backups should improve.

If LT becomes a "need" for GB then I'll feel pretty good about their chances...

8/24/073:36 PM

lukeyMember

I agree that the coaching has probably been better (certainly better than it was under Slowit). But what I'm arguing is that as atrociously as the defense played in '04, the cupboard was nowhere near as bare as many claimed. Hawk and Woodson were big additions--especially Woodson, given just how important corners are and just how bad Woodson's predecessors were. The rest of the improvement is almost entirely from player development. I don't think the defense would be much worse off without Poppinga, Jolley, or even Pickett. If your GM has any eye for talent at all, players of that caliber aren't hard to replace.

8/24/073:43 PM

HenryYou rang?

quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
I agree that the coaching has probably been better (certainly better than it was under Slowit). But what I'm arguing is that as atrociously as the defense played in '04, the cupboard was nowhere near as bare as many claimed. Hawk and Woodson were big additions--especially Woodson, given just how important corners are and just how bad Woodson's predecessors were. The rest of the improvement is almost entirely from player development. I don't think the defense would be much worse off without Poppinga, Jolley, or even Pickett. If your GM has any eye for talent at all, players of that caliber aren't hard to replace.

So we should have kept Donnell Washington, Joey Thomas, Mark Roman, etc. because they just needed some coaching? Sounds reasonable.

Anybody know why we gave Pickett a contract or drafted Jolly? Hell, we could've got them off the scrap heap. As I recall, the run defense up the middle under Sherman's tenure was spectacular. Barnett didn't get pushed around behind the line at all when trying to blitz.

Unreal. Newsflash, Sherman is gone and the Packers have a real defense because of it.

8/24/075:10 PM

Grave DiggerMember

quote:
Originally posted by LSU4GB:
It was my impression LJ Smith was being held out 'til the season...not that he was re-injured.
It's neither here nor there, though, since I suspect he'll be healthy by next UFA period...and in all likelihood they'll re-sign him anyway.
They know it's not easy to find good receiving TE's.

Yeah, that's what I thought also. He had his Hernia surgery and was out for a while. I thought I remember hearing that he came back and tried to do some work in training camp but it was too much so he sat out longer. I think he'll be fine come time for free agency.

quote:
We've been through the Colledge debate before - many had him as a LT prospect. It's completely plausible GB believes he's their LT after Clifton's contract expires in '09.

They'll keep throwing him out there in practice when they rest Clifton and hopefully we won't have to see how he's progressed in games.

Both Colledge and Barbre have the skill set to excel at LT IMO...so we'll see if either make it out there. Crazy thing is for a coverted DL that Thompson kid flashes...
They're flush on the OL IMO...their backups should improve.

Yeah, I agree it's definitely plausible that MM and TT believe Colledge take Clifton's place. I personally wouldn't do it, but that's just my opinion. This is Colledge's 2nd year at LG...he's developing at that position. And while he's been getting reps at LT, his priority is LG. If he's doing well at LG, I don't see a need to change him over and have him go through the struggles of developing full time at LT.

If we can get a full time LT, that can develop on at that position behind Clifton, then I think we'd be fools not to jump on that (unless there is an elite RB or TE available to us).

I'm not as high on Barbre as you are I guess. He looked very raw to me. Same for Orrin Thompson. Very raw.

8/24/077:19 PM

lukeyMember

quote:
Hell, we could've got them off the scrap heap.

Pickett was picked off the scrap heap. Jolley was a late-round pick, and is nothing special. Like I said, any GM with an eye for talent could find similar players without expending much in terms of money or picks--they're not special talents (especially Jolley, who probably isn't even as good as Colin Cole).

Sherman was a pretty crappy GM. I called for his head early on. But the fact remains that most of the solid players on this defense were drafted, signed, or traded for by Wolf or Sherman. (In retrospect, though, maybe Sherman the coach made Sherman the GM look even worse than he actually was.)

8/24/078:07 PM

CoachAt the head of the table

quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
quote:
Hell, we could've got them off the scrap heap.

Pickett was picked off the scrap heap.

BS.

8/24/078:10 PM

Grave DiggerMember

quote:
Originally posted by Coach:
quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
quote:
Hell, we could've got them off the scrap heap.

Pickett was picked off the scrap heap.

BS.

Yeah, as I recall, Pickett talked to other teams. He wasn't a "high profile" FA like Adalius Thomas but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been an FA very long if the Packers hadn't signed him. He wasn't off the scrap heap.

Jolly was a pretty good DT in college also. He wasn't great, but I thought it was surprising he lasted as long as he did.

8/24/078:27 PM

lukeyMember

I'm not going to bother arguing the definition of "scrap heap." Pickett was lightly regarded, lightly pursued by other teams, and didn't get all that much cash from the Packers. He's exceeded expectations and proven to be a good pickup. Is he all that integral to the Packers current success? I don't think so. Would it be all that difficult to find someone else to fill his role? Probably not--again, if your GM is any good, he can find guys like Pickett when necessary without splurging.

8/25/0710:58 AM

JJSDSitzpinkler Schadenfreude

quote:
Originally posted by lukey:
But the fact remains that most of the solid players on this defense were drafted, signed, or traded for by Wolf or Sherman. (In retrospect, though, maybe Sherman the coach made Sherman the GM look even worse than he actually was.)

I'm working through this as I put it together, so no preconceived notions here, but this is how the starting D stacks up:

Jenkins - IIRC, he's been around for both regimes;
Pickett - TT, and in no way is he "lightly regarded," nor was he when he signed.
Williams - Sherman
Kampman - Sherman
Hawk - TT
Barnett - TT
Pop - TT
Harris - Sherman, and probably his best trade.
Woodson - TT
Collins - TT
Bigby/Whoever - TT

That's 3 or 3.5 Sugar Bear guys out of 11, depending on how you classify Jenkins. 3.5 of 11 isn't "most," and I think it'd be hard to argue that the LB's and DL have gotten better with superior coaching to the previous regime. The same stool is coaching the DB's, so that's a wash, but there is better talent there.

8/25/0711:08 AM

Grave DiggerMember

Barnett was a Sherman I think. 2004 I think is when he was picked. Still your point still stands JJSD.

8/25/0711:10 AM

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