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The NBA has some work to do. A pandemic,  Political backlash, and general drops in event viewership opposite the most media covered Presidential election in history gave the NBA 51% fewer viewers to sell sponsor products to year over year. Adam Silver addressed the Political backlash- political messaging will need to be off the court in the shortened 72-game season. But even while the pandemic has states reporting further shutdowns, there’s still a season to salvage (again) and some bridges to mend.

And with the election mercifully in the rear view, folks may want to continue their journey back to normalcy by watching some Christmas Day hoops again. Depending on state restrictions, the NBA has already laid out guidelines to allow fans to attend games again in 2021. By the time the playoffs arrive, with the vaccine deployed for several months by then, the playoffs may once again be filled with raucous chants of “DEFENSE!!!” in a virtually full arena. Celebrity rows may be pushed back 15 feet from the bench (10 from the court), but I never thought it was smart to put people that close to the action anyway. The Bubble showed that players can play harder with more space around the court.

The Association certainly is aligning itself to other potential changes. There were rumors last year that some NBA officials were interested in realigning its season to a Christmas week opening and a July Finals, citing that early season viewership suffers when head to head with the mighty NFL and College Football juggernauts. The ratings surely bear that out- after a natural first week interest spike, the viewership quickly plummeted in favor of football as playoff brackets take shape and Conference Championships line up. This season then takes on the look of a sort of trial balloon in that regard. If the result is a sustained interest, this change could be permanent.

But there are other changes. The scheduling lessons of the bubble have given birth to a completely different way of looking at travel and it’s impact on quality of play. More back to backs with no travel now dot the current released schedule, and this may be a permanent fixture in regular seasons in the future. Finding ways to keep players fresher and less susceptible to injury by limiting travel certainly lends itself to a better product on the floor- a very loud lesson from the Bubble. The Association can also look to a reduced regular season, knowing that teams no longer play star players anyway for all 82 games.

There are playoff format changes available on the horizon, as well. Could we see a centralized, Super Bowl-like NBA Finals? The players certainly approved of the limited travel and maximum rest of the Bubble. That doesn’t bode well for markets like Milwaukee, where lost local revenue booms won’t be popular. But for the league it could present opportunities similar to the corporate billions enjoyed by the NFL. Placing the crown jewel games in larger markets that can handle the convergence of the global media covering the Finals (always a logistical challenge) could theoretically generate more shareable revenue for the health of the league. That also opens the door to “every other day” scheduling, which puts bigger market games in prime slots for max $$$ (a reality us Bucks fans were exposed to in the Bubble playoffs that saw the Bucks playing mid-afternoon even as the 1 seed).

It will be a time of change in the relationship between the Owners and players, as well. The “Player Empowerment Era” may have run its course- if Ownership has any say. The era of NBA players keen to join forces with other great players to form Superteams has been met with backlash from fans and owners alike. It’s one of the reasons the Bucks’ extension of Giannis has been viewed as a “good thing for the NBA” by pundits (who ironically just weeks before were dreaming of a Knicks return to glory). It’s a feel good story. But stars playing in big markets or aligning with other stars to win is nothing new in the NBA, and because it is also in the interests of the game, it’s not going away. The key will be to create incentives for teams to stay together longer. Cap incentives seem to be the main pathway towards more player stability. The health of the league in its medium to small markets must be a priority for the game to prosper. Look no further than the NFL for proof.

The Association, like all of us, took a big hit in 2020... they’ll need to navigate smartly going forward to ensure the long term stability and growth of the league. They need to promote the game positively to the whole country, and repair some bridges to disenchanted fans in flyover cities that view the league as something they don’t connect with anymore. Just about every Bucks fan I know was ready to walk away from the NBA if the league gave any appearance to the kind of big market shenanigans that typified the David Stern era. Those fans today look forward to the continuing success of a team with one of the league’s biggest stars- as it should be.

The Association needs to worry less about offending China and more about what they have right here.

Last edited by Music City
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The NBA has always been a step ahead of the other pro sports in certain areas.  

Their investment in streaming content and social media is leaps and bounds ahead of MLB and the NFL specifically.

They also were real the only sport to not have to cancel or reschedule games.  

I think their scheduling this upcoming season - only releasing half - is brilliant.  It allows them to check and adjust and not having the dreaded back to backs in different cities actually should improve the quality of play.

The rumors of a mid season tournament would be a stroke of genius.  I also think their idea of the play in game (postseason) was really smart and saavy,  It would not surprise me to see them do a complete reseeding of the playoffs including eliminating conferences and just doing 1-16 matchups much like the NCAA tournament.  Perhaps they even get more creative and allow the top 2 or 4 teams to pick their first round opponents.  That would be fun.

Then there’s future growth and expansion.  Looking over the next 5 years, the rise of players like Doncic and Jokic and Giannis and Siakim will only help create more worldwide interest in the sport.  Perhaps they do a “European tour” of some sort in areas where some of these stars came from.  

China may have a lot of money to spend on NBA marketing, but Europe is where the games resources are growing. Bill Simmons was just talking about this with Mark Cuban- the FIBA World Cup scenario is something that has the potential to have a growing importance. The League is about to be taken over by a group of young international players that tilts the balance. Giannis, Luka, Simmons, Jokic, and Embiid- theee guys are “next” as Title contending stars.

The league is also filled with a long list of Euro role players that are intricate parts of their teams: Porzingas, Siakam, Goebert, Vucevic, the Bogdanovic brothers, Markkanen, Rubio... you add these guys up you could really play USA vs the World in the All Star game and see the International team win.

These players have not been poisoned by that AAU world. They’re the prominent players rising in the league today.

Last edited by Music City

I agree the future is international and the immediate future expansion is in Europe.

I think the NBA has to make a decision on what FIBA rules they are going to incorporate and which rules they want to retain that are different (and push FIBA to move towards the NBA - like they did with the 3 point line). Some of them are simple decisions like the length of games and the number of fouls before disqualification. In those cases, I would think the NBA would want the longer games (48 vs. 40 minutes) and the extra foul (people pay to see stars and the extra foul keeps them on the court more often). In other cases, there are some fundamental differences. The size of the lane (trapezoidal vs. rectangular), being able to swat the ball out of the cylinder once it touches the rim, and no defensive 3-second calls are going to require some negotiation.

I'd like to see a mid-season break where each NBA team plays against a couple of Euro teams or do a single-elimination tournament. There are 18 teams in the Euro League, so 48 teams works well if you give the top 16 teams byes and do playins to eliminate 16 to get to 32 for the tournament. That's 47 games that can be marketed worldwide over a 2-week period. Have it instead of the all-star game dunkathon (and you could keep some of the Legends, 3 point shooting contest, etc. stuff and include Euro players).

In terms of salary-related things, there should be team-related incentives in keeping your stars as well. One idea some have floated is to have some portion of the supermax be exempted from cap charges. In other words, since the most other teams can offer Giannis is roughly 35 million a year and the Bucks can roughly 45 million, why penalize the Bucks' salary cap for this difference? Have him count 35 million against the Bucks cap instead of 45. It would have the added benefit of reducing the luxury tax penalties most teams with a supermax player are going to be on the hook for.

I love that idea of not penalizing a team for keeping their stars. I mean, the tax is a significant problem especially for the smaller market teams.  The NBA already allows some amnesty related exceptions (like injured players) but a team like Milwaukee shouldn’t be dinged for retaining a star like Giannis.  Maybe just retaining existing max players is exempt, I don’t know.  

There should also be some compensatory pick for teams that lose their stars or key players. Maybe it’s when a team like Atlanta signs Bogdanovic and the Kings don’t match the Kings get a pick back in return.

Last edited by Tschmack
@Tschmack posted:

I love that idea of not penalizing a team for keeping their stars. I mean, the tax is a significant problem especially for the smaller market teams.  The NBA already allows some amnesty related exceptions (like injured players) but a team like Milwaukee shouldn’t be dinged for retaining a star like Giannis.  Maybe just retaining existing max players is exempt, I don’t know.  

There should also be some compensatory pick for teams that lose their stars or key players. Maybe it’s when a team like Atlanta signs Bogdanovic and the Kings don’t match the Kings get a pick back in return.

I think the challenge for the NBA is that compensatory picks mean almost nothing relative to the NFL or even MLB. In the NFL, you have a great chance of getting a contributing player with even an extra 4th round pick since you need a minimum of 30-35 guys on any given Sunday. In the NBA, unless you are picking in the top 5 or maybe top 10, your odds of getting a major contributor are low and to be drafting with an extra pick at the end of the first round after 30th overall is not going to get you much of anything. You couldn't really give any compensatory picks until the end of the first round.

I think if you lose a guy that you wanted to retain (Durant to OKC for example) you should get some salary cap bonus you can use to try to replace him.

There are a lot of NBA picks that are garbage.  Including top 10 picks.

But let’s not forget you can find some real gems.  Jokic was taken 41st overall in 2014.   Our guy Middleton was 39th overall in 2012.  Jimmy Buckets was taken 30th in 2011.  Siakim and Gobert were both 27th overall in 2016 and 2013 respectively.  Lyle Lowry was 24th overall.   These guys were All Stars last year.

You give a team an extra 1st round pick for losing a decent player and yes it could turn into crap but it’s something.  It could be end the first round.  Or give a team a choice instead to provide some kind of salary cap relief as MP2 described?

Jerry west called the Lakers a shit show during the Kawhi Leonard recruitment:

https://www.ibtimes.com/nba-je...-report-says-3105677


Tampering accusations against the Clippers? Surely you don’t think...

https://www.latimes.com/sports...y-west-investigation

The Association needs to either change the rules or start enforcing them. The “tampering” issue is a complete joke. The worst kept secret in sports.

Last edited by Music City

It’s funny the whole tampering thing just disappeared with the Bucks along with the fake outrage and hurt feelings.

Now Jerry West is basically caught (allegedly) with his pants down regarding the Kahwi recruitment process.   Wow I am shocked lol.

Tampering in the NBA is a joke.  Everyone talks about everyone.  You said it - tampering is the worst kept secret in professional sports.

Last edited by Tschmack
@Goalline posted:

Every sport and just about every event has seen a major drop during COVID. COVID is just bad for business. The NBA does not need to panic.

While true, it is also true that there was a backlash with the overtly political stance the League made. Adam Silver has acknowledged this and that is why they will not be supporting it during games anymore.

Rudy Gobert signs for 5 years and 205 million.

It looks like the Jazz and Gobert split the difference between a regular max (~160 million) and a supermax (the Giannis contract of 228 million).

That's a lot of money for a guy that might get played off the floor by small ball lineups in the playoffs.

That’s crazy money for Gobert. You’re right... you give $40M/yr to a guy that can get played off the floor? That’s an untradeable contract for a guy who may not be a top 20 of player?

  1. LeBron
  2. Giannis
  3. Davis
  4. Kawhi
  5. Harden
  6. Curry
  7. Jokic
  8. Luka
  9. Dame
  10. Tatum
  11. Siakam
  12. Beal
  13. Mitchell
  14. Paul
  15. Simmons
  16. George
  17. Townes
  18. Butler
  19. Embiid
  20. Booker

Is Gobert better than any of these guys? Sure, he’s a difference making defensive presence, but those players simply do not lead to championships. Ben Wallace was a big part of the Pistons success, but he doesn’t put the ball in the basket. Sure, he has value- but NBA history is full of players who are overvalued like this. Utah is making a huge mistake giving him this kind of money. He’ll never live up to the contract...

Last edited by Music City

Gobert is undervalued because he’s a throwback player.  A true center that plays in the post.

He’s an anchor defensively and a solid offensive player.  He doesn’t step out and take 3 pointers like many of the other bigs but on that team they don’t need him to do that.  

With some of the dollars being thrown around the last 5 years or so it’s tough to say who’s overpaid or not.   I view him bit like Middleton.  A very good player but not elite by any stretch.   Although you could argue Gobert is an elite defender.  Middleton isn’t elite in any aspect of his game, but he’s probably best suited with a team like the Bucks that can compliment his strengths and hide his weaknesses.

I just like the fact that he’s staying in Utah (small market).  

Last edited by Tschmack

I’m sure the league is disappointed, at best, that Giannis didn’t go to one of the few acceptable franchises. They’ll be on the Bucks like stink on sht for a long time. Clippers won’t be penalized, and the Lakers can do whatever they’d like without fear of repercussion. The richest always get the spoils.

Boy, no shit... those fucking hypocrites. Here’s an article from before he signed. Pretty much breaks it down.

https://cbssportsradio.radio.c...giannis-in-milwaukee

”As Gelb explained, it appears the NBA picks and chooses when tampering is and isn’t an issue.

“The NBA didn’t say a word when LeBron James, for a year-plus, used Rich Paul, that connection, to court Anthony Davis to L.A. when he was still on the Pelicans,” Gelb said. “The NBA did nothing when Kyrie and KD, in front of you, basically said, ‘We’re going to team up, and we’re going to go elsewhere next year.’ And we all knew they were going to Brooklyn.’”

It’s a joke. Now Harden wants to go to Brooklyn- I wonder why? Why Brooklyn specifically? Did you already talk to someone?

What-the-fuck-ever...

Last edited by Music City

And on top of it, the league is rubbing the Bucks face in shit even more suggesting they went easy on Milwaukee because they “cooperated” and didn’t sign Bogdanovic.

I mean, it this the standard now?  Is this due process?  This sounds like MLB and NFL related bullshit.  

Look, I like Adam Silver and a lot of the things the NBA has done recently but this feels like some kind of backhanded revenge for Giannis upping with Milwaukee.  To that extent, I say fuck you NBA.  I hope the Bucks win the next 5 championships.  And dispatch of those real tampering fucks like the Lakers and Clippers and Heat and Raptors.  

Last edited by Tschmack

Even if they have a down year, the Bucks are going to be one of the top 8 teams in the league. Drafting 52nd or lower is not likely to get you much you couldn't get by signing an UDFA. However, it does reduce their maneuverability in terms of trades for guys at the deadline.

The Clippers were communicating with Kawhi's shady uncle and the guy on the fricking NBA logo was the one doing it. The fact there is a tape of the phone call is the only reason the NBA will be forced to perform even a "thorough" investigation and will probably fine the Clippers and take away a 2nd round pick. However, as shady as this was, at least Kawhi was a free agent and it was the off-season.

The Lakers were much worse. Rich Paul tried to force AD out of New Orleans at mid-season in 2018-19. The Pelicans wouldn't play ball then, so AD basically half-assed his way through the rest of that season on a minutes restriction. Talk about affecting the integrity of the game. At least the Clippers (and obviously the Bucks) situations had no impact on any actual games that people paid to watch.  All the shady stuff (if you can call what the Bucks did that) happened within a week of the start of free agency). At the same time as AD is jogging up and down the court for 20 minutes a night in NO, LeBron decided to check out early in 2018-19 for some R&R because he felt the Lakers weren't competitive. Again, who cares about the people that bought Laker tickets to see LeBron. Unlike LeBron, Jordan played every game in large part because he knew people came out to see him.

AD, of course, claims that he wanted out because he couldn't win in New Orleans. They then win the lottery and get to draft the most heralded college prospect since AD in Zion. And AD doesn't even reconsider after that? AD, Jrue Holiday, and Zion is a pretty good Big 3.

Giannis is a loyal guy, but in the end I think Bucks fans are really, really lucky that Dolan is such a lousy owner that not even the NBA front office wants him to succeed with the Knicks. They are waiting for him to sell the team. All the other markets that drive TV ratings and advertising dollars (both LA teams, the Bay area, Miami, Philly, Dallas, and Houston) have superstars already. Even NYC has Brooklyn with a Big 2. The only two teams they really need to be good to maximize profits are Chicago and the Knicks. If a desirable owner bought the Knicks, there'd be some major scheming going on in the NBA front office to get Giannis, Zion, or someone like that to play in Madison Square Garden. I don't know what's going on in Chicago, but look for them to win the lottery soon.

Well, we all know the lottery is fixed err the ping pong balls dropping to certain teams at certain times is just coincidence.

Patrick Ewing started it all.  Later on it was Cleveland (LeBron) then Chicago (Rose) then New Orleans (twice- AD then Zion).  Oh, and then Cleveland again (Kyrie) after LeBron left the first time.

Who can also not forget Orlando securing the top pick (Shaq) not long after the franchise was sold?

I’m convinced the minute Dolan sells the Knicks they will win the next 3 lotteries just as a reward.

The league must really hate OKC.  After Durant leaves why didn’t they get the 1 pick overall?

Last edited by Tschmack

Giannis is a loyal guy, but in the end I think Bucks fans are really, really lucky that Dolan is such a lousy owner that not even the NBA front office wants him to succeed with the Knicks. They are waiting for him to sell the team. All the other markets that drive TV ratings and advertising dollars (both LA teams, the Bay area, Miami, Philly, Dallas, and Houston) have superstars already. Even NYC has Brooklyn with a Big 2.

The whole Brooklyn thing doesn’t happen if the Knicks aren’t such a shit show. Both guys wanted to play in MSG, not the damn Barclay’s Center.

Much like wanting Rick Spielman to stay as GM of the Vikings, I sure as hell want James Dolan to stay as owner of the Knicks as long as possible.  As long as he’s in charge of the NYK that franchise will continue to be a disaster and no one decent or competent will want to go there.

Harden starting to go "Jimmy Butler and the TImberwolves" stage on the Rockets.

https://clutchpoints.com/rocke...ate-during-practice/

As much as I dislike Harden's style of play, what would really be great would be for the Rockets to trade Harden to the Knicks so we could watch Harden put up 50 a night for a 15 win team.

When it goes bad it really goes bad.  The problem for Harden is his recent antics will turn off a number of suitors, and the Rockets are screwed because there is no way they will get even close to equal value back in return.  

But this is what happens when you dance with the devil.  It’s no different with Jimmy Butler.  Things are peachy keen when you are winning, but it can go south in a hurry if conditions aren’t nearly perfect for that type of player.

Now, his value actually increases next year as there are teams out there that would love to clear 40MM from their books but two years is a lot to absorb.

Something to watch close this year... injuries.

The Nets lose Dinwiddie. Now Orlando, off to a 6-2 start, loses Markelle Fultz for the year. Will be a key issue for whoever is playing into July...

@Music City posted:

As much as I cannot stand the fucker, it’s pretty remarkable the difference Draymond Green makes for the Warriors. They’re a completely different team.

They wouldn't have won the titles without him because he was the only non-finesse player they had. Klay, Steph, and Durant were all obviously finesse guys (as were Igoudala, H. Barnes, and Livingston).

He gives them an attitude, but he's due 100 million over the next 4 years. He'll turn 31 in March. Over the last two years and the start of this year, he's shooting under 28% from 3 and hasn't averaged more than 8 points a game in 3 years. He'd be a great guy to have in the Thanasis role (10 minutes a game as an energy guy and an agitator) making the MLE at most. He may have the worst contract in the NBA right now.

@Goalline posted:

Defensively, Klay is a holy terror. Far from a finesse player, IMO.

Klay learned how to play defense partially from Tony and Dick Bennett at Washington State. I wouldn't call him overly physical though. They (Curry, Klay, Durant) all needed an enforcer/slightly crazy type. It's what Portis may be for us.

Draymond Green is one of the smartest basketball players in my memory. Uncanny ability to read and anticipate on both ends. If he had more physical talent, he’d be an all timer.

He’s also a prick. If he’s not on my team, I can’t stand him...

Atlanta has already cooled off and I expect the same with the Knicks and and the Magic although Orlando is an interesting team.  I’ve always liked Fournier and Vucevic is one of the most underrated players in the league.  Terrance Ross is having a good year and Aaron Gordon is starting to shoot the ball much better.  Losing Fultz sucks, but time for the rookie Cole Anthony to step up.  

@Tschmack posted:

Atlanta has already cooled off and I expect the same with the Knicks and and the Magic although Orlando is an interesting team.  I’ve always liked Fournier and Vucevic is one of the most underrated players in the league.  Terrance Ross is having a good year and Aaron Gordon is starting to shoot the ball much better.  Losing Fultz sucks, but time for the rookie Cole Anthony to step up.  

Atlanta's problem is that their team is built around Trey Young and he is one of the worst defensive players in the NBA. I don't think you can win consistently with him as your foundation.

Some in the media are trying to make him out as the next Steph Curry. It's not even close. Steph isn't a shutdown defensive player by any means, but he's not a liability on that end and he has led the NBA in steals during a couple of his seasons. Trae Young has developed a reputation as a lights-out shooter. He's a 34% career shooter from 3. Curry is at 43.5% for his career.

The Knicks will probably hang in there for a while. Thibodeau is a good coach, but he begins to wear thin on guys after a while (which means he's usually good for a year or two). He'll keep the Knicks playing defense and they won't be the joke they have been in the last decade or so.

@Music City posted:

Draymond Green is one of the smartest basketball players in my memory. Uncanny ability to read and anticipate on both ends. If he had more physical talent, he’d be an all timer.

He’s also a prick. If he’s not on my team, I can’t stand him...

@Music City posted:

Well... the Bogdanovic saga takes an interesting turn. He’s out indefinitely with a knee fracture.

https://www.nbcsports.com/baya...-fracture-right-knee

He wasn't injury prone before, so most likely bad luck.

The guy that will be interesting to monitor is Brogdon. He's being mentioned as an MVP candidate right now. His availability has always been an issue.

Looking around the League, it looks like the. Ives caught Utah at the wrong time- they’ve rolled 3 straight and each was a blowout.

Philly is playing like they know what the hell they’re doing, now. Lakers started 2-2, but have won 7 of 8 since. Indy started hot and has cooled some since.

The Bucks have the top scoring team in the NBA. They have the top SRS in the NBA according to PBR.

The Warriors are better with Draymond now, and the Suns are built to win in the post season. Clippers might be better, but they don’t bring it every night. The Knicks and Hawks have cooled off.

After 3 weeks the league is more balanced in the standings than I thought they’d be.

The COVID situation is likely to catch up to every team at some time and cause some unexpected losses and may cause some game cancellations. With the already-reduced number of games and how condensed the standing are, it makes it more of a priority to bank some wins early in the season for playoff positioning later. You obviously want to win as many games as you can no matter what, but each game is worth more than 10% more this year relative to the final standings and if the game numbers get reduced even more due to cancellations, it becomes an even higher percentage. The Bucks were going to be a work in progress, but they need to start/continue to play more smoothly and take care of business.

Right now, the Bucks are OK at 7-4. The rest of January looks like this. It would be nice to throw down something like a 7-2 stretch to get to 14-6 (should be heavily favored in all but the Mavs, Lakers, and Nets games). If you get a little loose in this stretch and go something like 4-5, an 11-9 record starts to get a little concerning given how compressed the standings are .



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Last edited by MichiganPacker2

So I'm watching Golden St vs. San Antonio....

Curry is feeding Wiseman for dunks the same way DDV feeds Giannis. Very impressive first half by GSW.

They're a different team than the Bucks & Nets crushed early now that Draymond is back.

Wiseman....I swear to Christ he's looking like Giannis tonight -- definitely his best game as a Warrior

Last edited by Boris
@Boris posted:

Another guy that can't play defense? Trading Kyrie (who probably could play defense but really doesn't want to) for a guy that tries to play defense but can get played off the court by small-ball lineups probably isn't going to fix the Nets main problem which is that they can't stop anybody.

@EC Pack posted:

After they stole Middelton, I can see why.

July 31, 2013: Traded by the Detroit Pistons with Brandon Knight and Viacheslav Kravtsov to the Milwaukee Bucks for Brandon Jennings.

This is probably the most lopsided trade in Bucks history (from the Bucks perspective).

It will be interesting to see if Middleton makes the All-star team this year. He deserves to, but he might get squeezed out by Irving/Harden if both get in and by a bunch of guys putting up big numbers on mediocre to lousy teams (Trae Young, Vucevic, G. Hayward, Zach Lavine, Jerami Grant, Sexton, Drummond, J. Randle).

Who are the players in the East that you'd clearly take over him right now?

Giannis, Durant, Embiid, Tatum, and Beal. 

Guys like Sabonis, J. Brown, VanVleet, Siakam, Butler, and Adebayo also deserve to be in the conversation and MIddleton is in this group.

I don’t know - trading Marbury for Ray Allen was pretty lopsided IMO.  

I seem to remember the Sam Cassell trade working out well.  

But Middleton and Knight for Jennings ranks right up there for sure.

@Tschmack posted:

I don’t know - trading Marbury for Ray Allen was pretty lopsided IMO.  

I seem to remember the Sam Cassell trade working out well.  

But Middleton and Knight for Jennings ranks right up there for sure.

I forgot about the draft day Allen trade. Of course, we later traded him for 3 months of ancient Gary Payton and Desmond Mason to cancel that out.

All because George Karl had a hard on for Allen because he didn’t think he played hard enough on defense.  

Allen got the last laugh ending up in Boston and Miami.  2 stops, 2 rings.  And maybe the most clutch playoff shot other than Robert Horry - when he nailed that corner 3 to beat the Spurs

Last edited by Tschmack

This article talks about the leagues explosion of three point shooting. The Bucks are not alone.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/...iss-3-point-shooting

The data is overwhelming. As drop defenses have become more popular, Teams are more comfortable jacking threes and making them, even when contest is right there.

Last edited by Music City
@EC Pack posted:

Very similar to baseball's homerun or bust mentality.

The difference is that in baseball it's made the game very boring to watch relative to when I was a kid. It's HR or bust on offense and minimize contact with the bat as a pitcher by getting as many strikeouts as possible. I'd go watch a game in County Stadium during college in the 80s and there was movement every inning during pitches. Guys stealing bases, a lot more hit-and-run, etc. Now all the movement is between batters (shift the defense based on tendencies, much less movement on the bases).

For basketball, it's improved the flow of the game on offense (with some Harden-like exceptions where it's just iso). After the Celtics/Lakers glory days in the 80s, the game (except for the Bulls) had evolved into a slugfest where you'd post up your big guy, get him the ball, and let him bump against his defender, and then shoot. Those Heat/Knicks playoff matchups were typical of the era and were just brutal to watch. It was like hand-to-hand combat. The ball movement of the Spurs title teams and the pre-Durant Warriors was beautiful to watch.

Last edited by MichiganPacker2

How many HOFers in the 80s and 90s would be unplayable these days, at least in playoff series against the good teams? I can think of many: Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, Patrick Ewing, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Moses Malone, Artis Gilmore, to name a few. They'd all get abused on the switches trying to defend the 3 point line. If Andre Drummond played in that era, we might be talking about him as a first-ballot HOFer. In today's game, he's lucky to be named an all-star.

The reciprocal is that guys like Durant and Curry would have been much less effective back then. If you could handcheck them like teams did to Jordan, their lack of strength would be exposed. As good as Durant is, if you put someone like Oakley on him for a few possessions and just beat the crap out of him, it would be interesting to see how he'd respond.

Guys like Curry and Durant would have been pushed around and pummeled like crazy in those days.  

People forget how physical the game used to be especially for guards and swing players.  Watch Jordan in his early days how often he’d get drilled or knocked down or hammered with no call.  

Then again, I doubt a guy like Giannis would be allowed to drive to the rack and dunk on guys uncontested.

On the other hand, guys like Harden and LeBron and Kahwi and Jimmy Butler would be just fine.  They are built differently and could take the pounding and still play their game.

@Tschmack posted:

Guys like Curry and Durant would have been pushed around and pummeled like crazy in those days.  

People forget how physical the game used to be especially for guards and swing players.  Watch Jordan in his early days how often he’d get drilled or knocked down or hammered with no call.  

Then again, I doubt a guy like Giannis would be allowed to drive to the rack and dunk on guys uncontested.

On the other hand, guys like Harden and LeBron and Kahwi and Jimmy Butler would be just fine.  They are built differently and could take the pounding and still play their game.

Middleton is a quintessential 80s/90s player. Except for catch and shoot 3s, most of his offense involves bumping into the defender to create space in the midrange. He's like Ricky Pierce on steroids. Another guy he would be similar to is Mark Aguirre.  He'd be a borderline all-star every year in that era too.

The world keeps spinning and it seems like the Bucks aren’t the only team trying to figure things out.  

The Celtics are 6-11 since starting the season 8-3.   That includes several bad losses recently to teams like the Wizards and Pistons.

The Heat are a train wreck.  After a very average 4-4 start, they are 7-13 since that point.   Their schedule has been challenging, but did anyone think they would be 11-17?  

The Raptors seem to be playing better, but are still 13-15.   I think they are trending on the right direction.

Then there’s Milwaukee.  Yes they have played awful lately, but they are 15-8 with Holiday in the lineup.  I hope and expect he’ll be back soon.

I would argue that the low point of the season was not the losing streak (which was without Holiday), but the back to back losses to New Orleans and Charlotte when they let two fairly average 3-point shooting teams shoot well over 40% from 3 and hit 21 3s in each game. The defensive philosophy began to switch away from the drop zone and to more switching. The Bucks are 9-1 in the last 10 games with Holiday since then with the only loss to the Nuggets. That was an ugly loss, but it was also when Holiday was still on minutes restrictions.

If they can get an upgrade on the roster by moving DJ Wilson or Torrey Craig along with a 2nd round pick, you obviously do it. But I don't want them moving DDV for a one-year, potentially washed-up rental like Tucker. DDV is too good on defense.

What they really need is more reps together. They had a couple of weeks of preseason and then Holiday missed almost a month. They'll go down to an 8 or 9 man rotation in the playoffs anyway. Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Lopez, DDV, and Portis are going be 6 of those guys. Augustin, Forbes, and Connaughton are the other 3. If you get a guy like Tucker I guess he slots into Connaughton's minutes, but if you lose DDV in the process then I don't think it's a net plus. Also, Connaughton is at 39% from 3 this year and Tucker is at 31%. The reason to get him is that he's had some success guarding Durant in the past.

At this point, I'd prefer the Bucks wait for the buyout market or try to get a fringe piece for DJ Wilson and Craig. They are better positioned to win in the playoffs this year than last year just by swapping Holiday in for Bledsoe. Forbes is at least as good as Korver was last year in that role, and Portis is a big step up from Ilyasova/Marvin Williams. DDV vs. Matthews is probably a push. The downgrade is from George Hill to Augustin, but Augustin is a pure point guard which has some value in stretches were you need to execute and get a good shot off with the second unit (like those many third-quarter playoff stretches when Giannis sits and they struggle to get anything done in the half court).

Agreed.  I’m not as certain that they should deal DDV now simply because in the playoffs (and possible matchups) they need his defense with Forbes and Augustin and their limited capabilities on D.

The question is a guy like Lopez - if you could package him and DJW to get another athletic big that can shoot that might be an option because come playoff time he is a liability on the defensive end.

Bucks trade details:

GET: from Houston- PJ Tucker, Rodions Kurucs; from Phoenix- their own 2022 first-round pick

GIVE UP: to Houston- DJ Augustin, DJ Wilson and 2023 unprotected first-round pick; to Phoenix- Torrey Craig

Houston also gets right to swap its 2021 second-round pick for Milwaukee's FRP pick unless it falls 1-9.

The Bucks also go from $441,539 below the hard cap to $3.5M. They now have 2 open roster spots.

They may be looking at another move.

I like this move.  Augustin has been up and down this year and Tucker obviously gives them an upgrade defensively.   The other good thing about him is he’s been a solid 3pt shooter.

Seems to me they need another guard unless they want to play one of the younger guys?

@Tschmack posted:

I like this move.  Augustin has been up and down this year and Tucker obviously gives them an upgrade defensively.   The other good thing about him is he’s been a solid 3pt shooter.

Seems to me they need another guard unless they want to play one of the younger guys?

I think Augustin was on an upward trajectory on offense and would have been fine there. The problem was that once you've committed to more of a switching defense instead of the drop scheme, you couldn't play Augustin big minutes. The Bucks started the season still mainly in drop and Augustin's defensive weaknesses are hidden more in that system.

Lopez will struggle on switches also, but he has very high value as a paint defender on help defense and is a very good post defender. The question for Lopez is whether that outweighs his struggles (the same struggles guys like Dwight Howard and A. Drummond have) in defending guys at the 3 point line. Augustin has very little defensive value, except maybe in a Celtics matchup against Kemba Walker.

The way I see it, at some point if Milwaukee advances in the playoffs they will need to beat Miami, Philly, or the Nets.  

Adding Tucker helps them in any one of those team matchups because he can defend multiple positions and you have to honor his ability to hit 3pt shots.

I think Augustin would have been OK but honestly this team needed another wing defender more than they needed another scorer or 3pt shooting.  If the Bucks want more offense off the bench that’s what Forbes and Portis are there for and Tucker can do both (score and defend).  

Depending on the matchups, it could also mean Giannis could play more as a 5 as Tucker could technically play the 4.  Not many teams in the East have a way to defend Giannis at the 5 other than Philly.  

@Tschmack posted:

The way I see it, at some point if Milwaukee advances in the playoffs they will need to beat Miami, Philly, or the Nets.  



The way things are shaking out, 2 of the 3 for almost certain. You’ll get one in the EC Semis, and the other in the ECF.

Last night, they would have lost in Embiid was on the floor. There’s work to do...

@Music City posted:

The way things are shaking out, 2 of the 3 for almost certain. You’ll get one in the EC Semis, and the other in the ECF.

Last night, they would have lost in Embiid was on the floor. There’s work to do...

Last night was a gritty win. I think the surprise of finding out that 3 teammates had been traded right before they tipped off might have had something to do with the awful first half. To their credit, the Bucks defense was consistently good even as they stunk the place up on offense and allowed them to stay within shouting distance.

Embiid would have allowed the Sixers to score more easily on offense and the Bucks would have been way out of it by the end of the first half. However, Embiid wouldn't have changed much of what happened in the first half to the Bucks offense. The Bucks are not going to shoot 1 for 17 from 3 very often, and Embiid's feet aren't quick enough to guard Giannis anyway.

The key decision in a playoff series against the Sixers will probably end up being whether to play Lopez in crunch time against Embiid and put Giannis on Simmons, or to go with Tucker on Simmons and move Giannis up to guard Embiid.

Last edited by MichiganPacker2

That’s the beauty of adding Tucker.  You take out Middleton or Giannis or even Lopez and you bring in a defensive minded guy like Tucker and you won’t necessarily be exposed.  It seems really weird that a guy who’s 6’5” can defend guys 4-5” taller than him but he does.  Not unlike how Jrue Holiday can defend a guy like Doncic.

The other interesting thing about Tucker is one of the better corner 3pt shooters in the league.  Yes, his numbers are down this year, but Houston is an absolute mess and my guess is he’ll be energized and motivated to play for a team like the Bucks.

So much these type of deals are also intended to keep a guy away from another team you will likely face down the road.  Philly is one of those teams that would have been a perfect fit for Tucker.  

@RoyalWulff posted:

Haven’t watched them at all this year.  Will this trade make them a contender?

Even though they don't have the regular season record they did last year, they are more of a contender to go deep in the playoffs than they were last year. Jrue Holiday is really, really good and really, really underrated.

@RoyalWulff posted:

Haven’t watched them at all this year.  Will this trade make them a contender?

As Giannis goes, so will this team. That’s really the long and short of it. Getting contributions from the rest of the lineup is only helpful if Giannis plays better.

When Giannis is clearly the best player on the floor, they beat you. They beat you soundly. Against the Heat, he wasn’t, then he got hurt. Against Toronto the year before, he was, then they built a wall and made him not, and they lost 4 straight.

I only bring this up because it can get lost in the shuffle of adding this guy, or that guy, or replacing that guy with this guy. In the end, even if all these guys are as good as advertised, unless Giannis is better as well, they still won’t win it all.

Holliday and Portis are significant upgrades from last season.  Forbes is at least as good if not better than Korver.

The only drop off is George Hill at backup PG but DDV has improved and the addition of Tucker allows them to play a small ball lineup without sacrificing on the defensive end.

Assuming they stay healthy I like where this team is headed.  They are one of the rare teams IMO that can match up defensively with a team like Brooklyn and probably Philly.  Especially now with getting Tucker.

EAST

Interesting things happening in the standings... the Atlanta Hawks change their coach, and last night extended their win streak to 8 games by beating the Lakers.

The Heat had won 10 straight until this week, but now have lost 2 in a row. The Heat and Hawks were under .500 just a few weeks ago, now they are the 4-5 seeds in the East.

The Pacers, Raptors, and Celtics are all in a free-fall. The Pacers are 7-13 since the start of FEB, while the Celtics 8-13 in the same stretch, and the Raptors have not won a game yet in March. This has allowed the Knicks and Hornets to climb into the playoff picture. The play-in games should be real battles.

WEST

In the Lakers’ loss to the Hawks, LeBron injured his ankle. Looks like he’ll miss some time. Anthony Davis has been out a month already... Lakers could be in trouble.

The Suns are the 2 seed now behind Utah, the first team to get to 30 wins. DEN seems to have righted the ship, and Portland could climb ahead of the Lakers at some point. The Clippers remain an enigma. They might be in line for a shake-up. And despite losing to the Bucks last night, Popovich seems to have the Spurs back in the race with their youth movement.

The playoffs are closer than people realize... thing are just starting to get interesting.

Last edited by Music City

Toronto is the type of team that can give a lot of teams problems.  The question will be if Lowry gets dealt.  

Miami and Denver both started the season slowly have turned things around big time.  

Boston and the LA Clippers are easily the most disappointing teams out there.  Defense has been an issue for both KC them.

Trade deadline heating up:

- Vucevic to the Bulls for Wendell Carter snd Otto Porter

- Lowry saying his goodbyes, seems like Philly makes the most sense

- Javale McGee to the Nuggets

- Delon Wright (Detroit) to the Kings for Corey Joseph and a couple 2nds

Last edited by Music City

And now Powell to the Blazers. The more guys going to the West the better. Denver is  remaking their whole roster.



Official trades:

Raptors trade Norman Powell to Blazers for Gary Trent and Rodney Hood

Orlando trade Evan Fournier to Celtics for draft picks

Cavaliers trade JaVale McGee to Nuggets

Pistons trade Delon Wright to Kings for Cory Joseph, draft picks

Magic trade Nikola Vučević, Al-Farouq Aminu and Otto Porter to Bulls for Wendell Carter Jr. and draft picks

Orlando trade Aaron Gordon and Gary Clark to Denver for Gary Harris, RJ Hampton, draft picks

Philadelphia acquires George Hill from Oklahoma City for Tony Bradley, draft picks in a three-team trade. Terrance Ferguson goes to the Knicks; Austin Rivers goes to the Thunder

It's good the Thunder have 17 first-round picks (and 17 second-round ones) the next 7 years. Maybe they can use them to draft acquire players like Durant, Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka, Sabonis, Oladipo, Paul George, or Chris Paul.
I mean, what do you sell to your fanbase? "I know we had three future MVPs on the roster a few years ago (plus Ibaka) all under 25 years old and made it to the Finals, but we didn't want to pay them so we decided to trade them continually for other players we decided to continually trade so that we can try to luck out that well during the draft again three times in a short period."
Bobby Marks
@BobbyMarks42
·
Oklahoma City now has a projected 34 draft picks over the next 7 years. 17- First 17- Second

The Celtics gave away Theis? Why?

Details of the Celtics/Wizards/Bulls deal, per league sources:

Wizards get D. Gafford, C. Hutchinson

Celtics get L. Kornet, M. Wagner Bulls get D. Theis, J. Green, T. Brown Jr. , $1.3m (from BOS) $250k (from WAS)

Here's the final summary.

My overall take.

1.The Raptors basically gave up for the year but kept Kyle Lowry's expiring contract? How does trading Powell, T. Davis, and Thomas for draft picks mesh with trying to do anything this year? It makes no sense not to get something for Lowry if you are going that.

2. The Celtics have a huge trade exemption and end up with Evan Fournier and get rid of Theis. Does that scare anybody?

3. Oladipo to the Heat. Shedding Bradley and Olynyk makes them less of a threat this year.

4. George Hill may match up with Jrue Holiday in a playoff series. That will be interesting.

5. The Bulls made the biggest move, but are they any threat to the Nets, Sixers, or Bucks? I'd say no

Official trades:

Houston trades Victor Oladipo to Miami for Avery Bradley and Kelly Olynyk

Kyle Lowry, Lonzo Ball stay put

Hawks trade Rajon Rondo to Clippers for Lou Williams, draft picks + cash

Raptors trade Norman Powell to Blazers for Gary Trent and Rodney Hood

Magic trade Evan Fournier to Celtics for draft picks


Bulls acquire Daniel Theis from the Celtics


Cavaliers trade JaVale McGee to Nuggets


Mavericks acquire JJ Redick and Trey Lyles


Raptors trade Terence Davis to Kings for a future draft pick


Hornets acquire Brad Wanamaker from Golden State


Raptors trade Matt Thomas to Utah for a draft pick


Pistons trade Delon Wright to Kings for Cory Joseph, draft picks


Magic trade Nikola Vučević, Al-Farouq Aminu and Otto Porter to Bulls for Wendell Carter Jr. and draft picks


Magic trades Aaron Gordon and Gary Clark to Denver for Gary Harris, RJ Hampton, draft picks


76ers acquires George Hill from Oklahoma City for Tony Bradley, Iggy Brazdeikis, draft picks. Terrance Ferguson goes to New York; Austin Rivers goes to OKC (three-team trade)

Today’s moves didn’t really hurt the Bucks at all.  In fact, I would argue in some respects it helped the Bucks chances in the East.

Toronto has basically given up yet they kept Lowry.  Win win as he doesn’t end up in Philly or Miami.   Dealing Powell likely means the Raptors are not a legitimate playoff threat if they make it at all.

Philly got better, but George Hill doesn’t put them over the top like Lowry may have.  

Miami added Oladipo and Bjelica, but they ditched a decent big that can shoot and play D (Olynyk) and lost Jae Crowder before the season.  Offensively, they are better, but on D they got worse for sure.

I have no idea what Boston was thinking.  Fournier can shoot and score, but he’s no defensive threat and Theis is a solid defender and rebounder.  


New Jersey is status quo, as is Milwaukee.  Meaning they are still the 2 best teams in the East IMO.

If I’m Utah or Phoenix or the LAL I’m not feeling good about what the Clippers and Mavs and Blazers and Nuggets did.  They all got better.  The West is going to be a bloodbath.

Last edited by Tschmack

Lowry might be a buyout candidate. If that’s what happens, he’s a Laker. They hAve no trade assets, and if he told Ujiri he wanted to play in LA, that’s really the only way.

Rondo really helps the Clippers. A lot. Rondo was an unsung hero for the Lakers last year.

LaMarcus Aldridge to the Nets.

Andre Drummond to the Lakers.

Is the NBA just setting up an NBA Finals with as many former all-stars as possible?

Durant, Irving, Harden, Griffin, and Aldridge on the Nets? Those guys have a cumulative 40 all-star appearances and may all make the Hall of Fame.

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