@sschumer - Packer Fan HoF'r posted:"I want us to be aggressive and go up and challenge the offense." - MLF
Oh...You mean like Todd Bowles defense did....YES PLEASE!!
I'm still pissed Rodgers didn't pump fake & have Adams double-move on that pick 6 throw. When you see those fuckers jumping routes. GO FOR THE GOD DAMN THROAT! Damn I'm still pissed about that play!
Just think about the game if it's Packers 17 Bucs 0 instead of 10-7.
@BrainDed posted:This false narrative that Preston is only playing coverage is getting out of hand. He’s still rushing the passer.
Preston Smith:
— Andy Herman (@AndyHermanNFL) October 20, 2020
51 coverage snaps through 5 weeks in 2019
51 coverage snaps through 5 weeks in 2020
24 pressures through 5 weeks in 2019
7 pressures through 5 weeks in 2020
#Packers had 304 total pressures last year, per @PFF. They're on pace for 169 this season. Za'Darius Smith and Preston Smith have only 20 combined in five games. Defense has lost its identity to start 2020
— Zach Kruse (@zachkruse2) October 19, 2020
Pettine is a McCarthy hire. He either coaches for his job or he can join McCarthy soon in Dallas. Nolan can't be long for that gig.
@Goalline posted:Well, that gives me some hope.
Here’s another one, 1994 San Francisco 49ers lost a home game to Philly 40-8. See? I think it’s inevitable this 38-10 loss spurs the Pack to get off their asses and win their 14th World Championship. 😉
You are living on borrowed time if your defense can’t consistently rush the passer and you can’t get turnovers.
This defense still lacks playmakers. I think 55 and 23 definitely fit that mold. Probably 97 as well. But other than those two or three guys does anyone scare you on that defense?
Preston Smith is a ghost right now. Kevin King is injured for the 50th time in his career. Amos is Amos - an average to above average player being paid like an All Pro. Darnell Savage has all the tools yet has not developed. We still don’t have one inside backer worth a damn.
Not that it matters but TJ Watt has 13 hits on the QB this year. Preston Smith has 2. That missed pick still haunts this team in so many ways. Instead of Watt you burn up huge dollars to get the Smiths. You spent a high draft pick on Gary. And yet this D is still ordinary at best.
Pettine isn’t being given a lot to work work but I expected more out of him and if you read the tea leaves MLF is no fan of the angry bald guy.
I'm guessing bypassing TJ Watt will never be forgotten/forgiven by this board. I'm starting to think it is # 2 of the list of GM f-ups for this organization, right behind the Hadl trade.
@michiganjoe posted:Preston Smith:
— Andy Herman (@AndyHermanNFL) October 20, 2020
51 coverage snaps through 5 weeks in 2019
51 coverage snaps through 5 weeks in 2020
24 pressures through 5 weeks in 2019
7 pressures through 5 weeks in 2020#Packers had 304 total pressures last year, per @PFF. They're on pace for 169 this season. Za'Darius Smith and Preston Smith have only 20 combined in five games. Defense has lost its identity to start 2020
— Zach Kruse (@zachkruse2) October 19, 2020
Thank you for the facts, kind sir.
@RochNyFan posted:I'm guessing bypassing TJ Watt will never be forgotten/forgiven by this board. I'm starting to think it is # 2 of the list of GM f-ups for this organization, right behind the Hadl trade.
A F-up of epic proportions.
The 2017 and 2018 drafts aren’t looking very good.
Josh Jones, Montravius Adams, Josh Jackson, Oren Burks. A whole lot of suck there.
@fightphoe93 posted:Here’s another one, 1994 San Francisco 49ers lost a home game to Philly 40-8. See? I think it’s inevitable this 38-10 loss spurs the Pack to get off their asses and win their 14th World Championship. 😉
Thank you! Did either of those teams have to fire Pettine first? 
@RochNyFan posted:I'm guessing bypassing TJ Watt will never be forgotten/forgiven by this board. I'm starting to think it is # 2 of the list of GM f-ups for this organization, right behind the Hadl trade.
TJ Watt was drafted 30th overall. A lot of team passed him up that would take him now. At least Kevin King is a decent player when he's healthy. In the end, they traded the 30th overall pick for a second and fourth rounder. It turned out they traded the pick that was TJ Watt for Kevin King and Vince Biegel.
The Hadl trade will always be the worst personnel move in their history. It probably has as much to do with Bart Starr being unable to build a winner than any other move (although drafting Rich Campbell instead of the consensus of their entire scouting department to draft Ronnie Lott and Eddie Lee Ivery's knee injuries are up there too).
The real f-up for the organization wasn't one specific decision, it was not trying to use some more mid-level free agency moves to improve personnel on defense from 2011-2016. Julius Peppers was a great signing and had as much to do with almost making the Super Bowl (the disaster in Seattle) as any other move. Other than that, they did very little to try to add solid, veteran talent to a team that was more than good enough to win it all.
Another rather large drafting mistake involving a Badger: Terrell Buckley instead of Troy Vincent.
@RochNyFan posted:I'm guessing bypassing TJ Watt will never be forgotten/forgiven by this board. I'm starting to think it is # 2 of the list of GM f-ups for this organization, right behind the Hadl trade.
Drafting Mandarich.
I wanted either Derrick Thomas or Barry Sanders.
Can you imagine having Barry Sanders with Favre plus that 1996 defense? I'll bet the Pack would've won a Super Bowl.
The Lindy Infante era would have been much longer...
Disagree
I have a lot of time on a break from work this week, so I'm sitting here chilling.
Within the group of people I talked Packer football with in the early 90s, we called Buckley Terrell F-Upley.
However, in retrospect Buckley had a very good career. Not Hall of Fame level, but he was exponentially better than a lot of guys the Packers have run out there since.
He played almost every game for 13 years and ended up with 50 interceptions and is ranked #35 all-time in interception return yardage. He had 6 interception returns for TDs in his career. 'He lasted in the NFL as a good player for 209 games. He got burned in Green Bay, but he still made plays, even in Green Bay (10 interceptions and 8 forced or recovered fumbles in 3 seasons).
This is a good way to look at this. The Packers current starting set of DBs and top backup (Alexander, King, Amos, Savage, and J. Jackson) have played a total of 203 games in their careers. Buckley played almost the same number by himself (209).
Packers current defensive backfield cumulative stats
203 games, 17 interceptions. 15 forced or recovered fumbles, 1 return TD
Buckley
209 games, 50 interceptions, 25 forced fumbles, 7 int./fumble return TDs
With the caveat that he was the 5th overall pick, which 1st round picks of the Packers have had better careers since 1992? I'm leaving out Gary and Alexander for now but I think Alexander will end up slightly better and Gary will end up much worse in terms of career accomplishments than Buckley.
I would argue he's probably their 5th best first-round pick in almost 30 years in terms of career accomplishments.
Clearly better: Rodgers, Bulaga,
Slightly better: Vonnie Holliday, Kenny Clark
Around the same: Javon Walker, Nick Barnett, BJ Raji
Slightly worse: Aaron Taylor (health), Wayne Simmons, Craig Newsome (health), Bubba Franks, AJ Hawk, Nick Perry, Kevin King (health)
Much worse: John Michels, Ross Verba, Antuan Edwards, Jamal Reynolds, Ahmad Carroll, Justin Harrell, Derek Sherrod, Datone Jones, Clinton-Dix, D. Randall
I still preferred Vincent. Already in WI, used to the weather and the people and not a mouthy punk.
The jury is still out on Love, he may well be #1.
In either (best or worst) category I may add.
@Goalline posted:Thank you! Did either of those teams have to fire Pettine first?
No, but neither of them hired him. Coincidence? I think not.
Also Mandarich vs Sanders. Obviously a shitty pick but if they had drafted Barry Sanders, Braatz and Infante are definitely still in Green Bay in 1992. No Wolf. No Holmgren. No Favre. So no Favre and Sanders Packers. It would have been Magik and Sanders, probably Tomczak and Sanders after the inevitable injury to Magik.
@PackerHawk posted:No, but neither of them hired him. Coincidence? I think not.
Also Mandarich vs Sanders. Obviously a shitty pick but if they had drafted Barry Sanders, Braatz and Infante are definitely still in Green Bay in 1992. No Wolf. No Holmgren. No Favre. So no Favre and Sanders Packers. It would have been Magik and Sanders, probably Tomczak and Sanders after the inevitable injury to Magik.
Which means no Reggie White. As good as Favre, Holmgren, and Wolf were, it was the Reggie White signing that put Green Bay on the map.
@Pikes Peak posted:The jury is still out on Love, he may well be #1.
In either (best or worst) category I may add.
To be worst than Mandarich would take some doing. Just showing up for practice for 5 years would make Love much better than Mandarich.
Love is going to be a megastar. Watch and learn.
You all are assuming Barry would have dramatically changed the fortunes of the Packers by himself, enough to keep Infante and Braatz around. Maybe a star QB can do that but what other team has ever been turned around simply by adding a star RB? I don't recall GB's OL at the time being world beaters as blockers. Sanders may have loosened up a D to make a QB's job easier but Majik still gets hurt and then you're saying a Tomczak/Sanders offense would have been good enough to keep Infante and Braazt in place. I'm really not so sure of that.
Since this is somewhat of an all reaching thread now, I'll use it to ask when is the time to commit to the rebuild or do you never fully commit and just continue the soft rebuild?
I don't see the Packers Defense holding up in the playoffs, yet again. For that reason, I'm starting to consider that this should be Rodgers last year in GB. Blow it up in the off season and go full rebuild in 2021. Here are the reasons why:
Point being, I wouldn't be upset if Gute decided to go full rebuild after this year. Full rebuild would include a couple of things.
Hopefully Pettine pulls a miracle and can polish these turds on defense. I don't see it happening though. Instead, I see another year that a Rodgers led team with a top 10 offense gets bounced from the playoffs because of the defense. If we don't rebuild, rinse and repeat for the next 2 to 3 years.
I could be convinced....especially IF they are all in on Love.
And they better be.
@Ghost of Lambeau posted:To be worst than Mandarich would take some doing. Just showing up for practice for 5 years would make Love much better than Mandarich.
Rich Campbell will always be the worst first-round pick in Packer history. He might be in the running for the worst high first-round pick in NFL draft history. I think the story was that the first practice they ever had him in after the draft it was pretty clear he was very likely to be a bust.
6th overall pick. He played in 7 games in his career over 4 seasons despite never being hurt.
@Pikes Peak posted:I could be convinced....especially IF they are all in on Love.
And they better be.
I agree. They bloody well better be. This is a guy that threw 17 interceptions his last season in college playing in a mid-major.
He's such an unknown with no preseason and reporters not getting the same access to practice during COVID.
I smell the attitudes of fans of perpetually losing teams.
@DH13 posted:You all are assuming Barry would have dramatically changed the fortunes of the Packers by himself, enough to keep Infante and Braatz around. Maybe a star QB can do that but what other team has ever been turned around simply by adding a star RB? I don't recall GB's OL at the time being world beaters as blockers.
Sanders didn't need an OL. The Lions had pretty crappy lines during his time there and it didn't matter at all.
The 1991 Packers went 4-12. They lost 5 games by 4 points or less. Lost a couple others by 10. Keith Woodside, Vince Workman and Darrell Thompson at RB.
Let me repeat that again - Keith Woodside, Vince Workman and Darrell Thompson at RB.
Remove any one of those guys (I don't care who) and insert Barry Sanders. What did Barry Sanders do his first three years in the league, including 1991?
Over 4,300 yards and 43 TD's rushing. Throw in another 1,000+ receiving and 4 more TD's. Pro Bowl every year.
Are the 1991 Packers an 8-8 team in 1991 with Sanders? Maybe even better with the confidence someone like that brings to a team? You fuckin A better believe it.
The Packers are in this cap situation because they overpaid for Nick Perry, held onto CMIII too long, but the icing on the cake was passing on TJ Watt.
We all loved the free agent signings of the Smith brothers, but would both have been necessary had they drafted Watt? Would they have burned the 12th overall pick on Gary had they drafted Watt?
Look, Kevin King is a decent player - when healthy. He’s the Packers version of Malcolm Brogdon when he was with the Bucks. But he ain’t TJ Watt. 2 Kevin Kings aren’t TJ Watt.
There is a 90% chance they lose either Jones or Bakhtari and probably a 50/50 chance they lose both after this offseason. Along with King. And that makes this team better?
The only way the Packers can dig out of this situation is to blow up the roster and maybe that was Gute’s plan all along. You can’t sustain a roster long term when you are paying the QB and a few other guys over 50% of the cap. Look no further than the Vikings to figure that out.
I don’t see this team improving dramatically and unless certain things bounce their way it’s probably another playoff disappointment. Not enough weapons offensively, and sure as shit not enough playmakers and toughness on the defensive end of things. You can scheme all you want but Krys Barnes isn’t going to morph into Devon White or Levonte David.
The good news is some team - or maybe several teams - would probably be interested in dealing for Rodgers and I think they could get a decent haul in return. Think of teams like Indianapolis. Or the Raiders. Or heck even the Patriots! Teams that have talent but need a solid QB to put them over the top.
I would hate to see Rodgers go but unfortunately I don’t see another way out of this situation. Sort of how I view the Brewers as well. I’d hate to see Hader or Yelich go but they are assets and to get something you need to give something. Or just keep the status quo and pray you catch some breaks. Or mostly breaks and good luck. As a CEO I worked for once told me - hope isn’t a good business strategy.
Lots of really long posts in this thread. My attention span just isn’t what it used to be, thanks Rona.
@Blair Kiel posted:I smell the attitudes of fans of perpetually losing teams.
It's pretty much like this after every beat down on the previously believed SuperBowl team.
They'll be great next week.
Jordan Love's Potential.
Had to get it in.
@PackerHawk posted:No, but neither of them hired him. Coincidence? I think not.
Also Mandarich vs Sanders. Obviously a shitty pick but if they had drafted Barry Sanders, Braatz and Infante are definitely still in Green Bay in 1992. No Wolf. No Holmgren. No Favre. So no Favre and Sanders Packers. It would have been Magik and Sanders, probably Tomczak and Sanders after the inevitable injury to Magik.
I still believe the drafting of Mandarich is why we still enjoy a good team today. Like you said a lot of things wouldn't have fallen in to place if the Packers had gotten better and didn't have that horrible year in 1990.
Bruce Arians, to me last night, on Tom Brady: "He picks all the plays now. We call what he picks. We just have to get better. He's getting more comfortable every week. We're getting close." (Note: Arians was upbeat about Brady's skillset. This is a process.) More on The Aftermath
— Michael Silver (@MikeSilver) November 30, 2020
They are going to have a new coach next year if they don't at least get to the NFC Title game this year. And new coach will need to be Brady approved. They didn't pay him all that money to be a one and done WC team.
