What the hell, it's the offseason. Agree?
Is the lack of Super Bowls on the team or Favre/Rodgers?-@SparkyRadio and Gary Ellerson say the QBs
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All and more of the above......some pretty good opponents too.
"Is the lack of Super Bowls on the team or Favre/Rodgers?"
What the **** is the question exactly?
I blame Obama
packerboi posted:What the hell, it's the offseason. Agree?
Is the lack of Super Bowls on the team or Favre/Rodgers?-@SparkyRadio and Gary Ellerson say the QBs
Well, it's a sort of interesting discussion I suppose. In a sport like football it's rarely possible to point to one person being the "blame" in a game that has 80 plays a game.
For discussion purposes only...
I'm gonna sound like a bitter Favre hater (GUILTY!), but honestly, I think you could make case to say Favre in his instances. I mean alone you can point to the Eagles game in 03 and the Giants game in 07 where he almost singlehandedly lost those games. He went years with a Brain Cramp playing Dallas (I will always think we had that game in 95 and he throws that god awful pick) Guh. It's easier to make the case for Favre given the high profile mistakes in games where I thought clearly we were the better team.
In Rodgers case, he played below average for him against the Giants in 11 and not terribly great against SF in 12, but in both cases the defense completely shat the bed. It's much harder to me to pin the blame on Rodgers. Even objectively if I was to "blame the QBs", I think the case is better with Favre
That all said, you can't blame either QB more than the "team." You can't. I mean even in the 03 Eagles game if Sherman doesn't coach like a moron the entire game, they win the game in regulation. In 07, they played conservative throughout and couldn't do a thing to stop Burress. In 99 playoffs Holmgren was checked out. I thought MM coached like a scared little child at times.
The team wins and the team loses. Even in the most glaring INT like 07, there are dozens of other plays made/not made that impact the game as well.
It's good clickbait, but a dumb question
Question came up during a JSO Q&A with McGinn today.
Q: Jeff, Mercer - hi Bob, thanks for your time. Tremendous article on Sunday, I thought you really nailed it. I remember the 70's and 80's as a Packer fan - really tough times. So, I don't want to seem ungrateful as we have been treated to 23 years of good football and 2 Super Bowl wins. But with 2 franchise QB's back to back isn't it natural to have expected more Super Bowl championships than that? My question is this, while I don't expect Murphy to make any kind of a move with Ted Thompson - why not? Surely the executive committee realizes that with all the ex Packer personnel people scattered throughout the NFL, the Packers could have their pick of the top ones. And with Ted having done a very good job for 11 years, maybe it's time for a change of philosophy. Pros and cons of Thompson staying or leaving? thanks
A: Bob McGinn - Jeff: Appreciate your remarks. We've all heard this narrative time and time again. But you know, some of the responsibility for why the Packers won one SB with Favre and one with Rodgers is the quarterbacks themselves. Favre had some terrible playoff games. Rodgers, since his brilliant work in 2010, has been outperformed in almost every playoff defeat. You call Favre and Rodgers franchise quarterbacks, and rightly so. But they didn't play like franchise quarterbacks in a slew of playoff games. Thompson had nothing to do with that. That's on those two quarterbacks for dropping the ball too many times.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/366380861.html
BBB makes some interesting observations on other issues as well.
"Rodgers, since his brilliant work in 2010, has been outperformed in almost every playoff defeat."
I think Bob's overstating this. And let's look at some context with that statement, shall we?
2009 Umm. Bob. You can't be serious. Outplayed? Rodgers played one of the best playoff games ever. Unfortunately, the opponent got to face a Dom Capers defense that couldn't stop anyone.
2011 Ok? Manning outplayed Rodgers. Slightly. Manning also got to play against one of the worst statistical defenses in NFL history. And had the benefit of a Hail Mary at the end of the half. So, there's that. Manning was statistically better. Rodgers not being as statistically great was not the reason we lost.
2012 Rodgers threw the ball almost identically as well as Kaepernick. Seriously, go look it up. The defense gave up 12 billion yards and 267 points to Kaepernick mainly on the ground because Dom Capers didn't think he needed to practice against that type of threat. Again, Rodgers was NOT the reason we lost this game. Not even close.
2013 Neither QB played great in the cold. The Defense allowing a 5 minute drive to end the game while dropping an INT was the reason we lost.
2014 Russell Wilson did NOT outplay Rodgers. (Jon Ryan however...) 4 INTs come on. The ST and D pissed away the game. MM playing conservative didn't help. Rodgers wasn't great by any means. But, he was NOT outplayed.
2015 Outplayed? Sure. I will agree with that.
2 of 6 = almost every playoff defeat. mmkay.
Nice to see 2009 is since 2010.
There are 10 million ways to analyze a loss and place blame, but ultimately it's a team game. Since 2010 this team has given up 37, 45, 23, 28, and 26 points in losses. Ultimately though, other than maybe the 23 points given up to San Fran, that's far too many points. The D can't give up that many points, that's not on Rodgers.
On the flip side, this team has only scored 20, 31, 20, 22, and 20 points in losses. Other than the 31 vs San Fran in 2012 that's not nearly enough points to win. Rodgers leads the offense, so he needs to do better.
Everyone points to the OT INT of Favre vs Giants in NFCC at Lambeau, right? How many of you recall the strip fumble of Manning and Atari Bigby muffing the fumble recovery trying to pick it up instead off falling on it? It was late in the 4Q and GB had a 3pt lead. If Bigby falls on ball GB gets to run clock to zero, instead he muffs the recovery and Giants retain possession and a few plays later boot the game tying FG.
Only team to score in the 4th of that game was GB after Favre threw a pick but Grant stripped it and Tauscher recovered it. Crosby tied the game at 20 a few plays later. Tynes missed a 40 yarder with a few seconds left. Think Tynes missed two FGs in the 4th.
And the Favre pick was as bad in the 4th as it was in OT. And Rodgers watched all of it from the bench. ****!!!!!
bigdoggyjude posted:Everyone points to the OT INT of Favre vs Giants in NFCC at Lambeau, right? How many of you recall the strip fumble of Manning and Atari Bigby muffing the fumble recovery trying to pick it up instead off falling on it? It was late in the 4Q and GB had a 3pt lead. If Bigby falls on ball GB gets to run clock to zero, instead he muffs the recovery and Giants retain possession and a few plays later boot the game tying FG.
Jarrett Bush...not Bigby....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Johnson_%28safety%29
(I don't know how to put in a link since the new format change...but I just googled Packers Giants NFCC game 2007 fumble)
I have no idea what alternate universe you two are spooning in. Manning never fumbled in that game. NY did fumble it 5 times. Lost it once. Can we stop talking about this game now?
I hope "outperformed" is just a poor choice of words on Bob's part and he's not seriously suggesting the standard AR should be held to is the performance of the opposing QB. AR has set a pretty high bar for his play and it's fair to say he's underperformed in recent postseason games. Six points off five turnovers and a QB rating of 55.8 simply isn't good enough with a trip to the SB on the line.
ChilliJon posted:I have no idea what alternate universe you two are spooning in. Manning never fumbled in that game. NY did fumble it 5 times. Lost it once. Can we stop talking about this game now?
OK so my recollection may be off a bit - certainly looking at the box score paints a different picture. I just know late in a playoff game vs the giants at lambeau the ball was on the ground and if the packers fall on it were in a position to win the game - perhaps they needed to kick a FG. I forget - but the point being placing blame solely on the OT INT was off base when considering other contributing factors.
McGinn ought to at least mention a comparison of the Packer's defense and the defense of the opposing team when referring to how the QB's compared.
Boris posted:I blame Canada
I blame Canada AND Obama!
bigdoggyjude posted:ChilliJon posted:I have no idea what alternate universe you two are spooning in. Manning never fumbled in that game. NY did fumble it 5 times. Lost it once. Can we stop talking about this game now?
OK so my recollection may be off a bit - certainly looking at the box score paints a different picture. I just know late in a playoff game vs the giants at lambeau the ball was on the ground and if the packers fall on it were in a position to win the game - perhaps they needed to kick a FG. I forget - but the point being placing blame solely on the OT INT was off base when considering other contributing factors.
It was on the punt with 2:30 left in the game, tied 20-20. McQuarters fumbled the ball after a decent return, Bush tried picking it up and running, and Dominick Hixon recovered. If Bush falls on it, we have the ball around midfield with 2:30 left. That was the drive where the Giants drove down the field on the defense and luckily missed a 36 yarder with 18 seconds left.
"(2:30) 9-J.Ryan punts 31 yards to GB 48, Center-60-R.Davis. 25-R.McQuarters to GB 38 for 10 yards (59-T.White). FUMBLES (59-T.White), touched at GB 41, recovered by NYG-87-D.Hixon at GB 48. 87-D.Hixon to GB 48 for no gain (35-K.Hall)."
without a doubt it's all my fault I'm the one to blame
packerboi posted:
The parallels of this with his pick in the NFCC for the Vikings is uncanny. Here he simply checks down (what I assume is) the RB heading to the right at the 30, and he gains probably 15-20 yards are you are almost already in FG position. There he simply takes the easy 5-10 yards of running room and Longwell is kicking a FG.
Someone needs to find the video of Favres pick in the 4th to McQuarters that McQ fumbled back to GB. That pick is never really talked about much in the Mt Rushmore discussion of Brett Favre postseason eff ups. But it was as bad a pick as he's ever thrown in the playoffs. Just a dead floater.
My take away from that 4th quarter is how much Brett looked like he'd rather be anywhere else on the planet other than Lambeau Field.
YATittle posted:Boris posted:I blame Canada
I blame Canada AND Obama!
Oh aren't they the same thing?
Was AR outplayed by Palmer this year? I don't think that's a given. Palmer had as many INT's and dropped INT's as he had clutch throws. Statistically they're about the same. Both around 51.5QBR. That with AR throwing to his #4,5 and 6 WR's while Palmer is throwing to "the deepest WR corps in the league".
74 years young, 0°F and Bart looked ready to go.
I think blame falls like this:
1) Bad Luck: In order, injuries to Jordy, Bakhtiari, Quarless and Montgomery and Shields made things very hard to overcome. Unlike 2010, the backups to those 4 guys weren't able to provide the same play.
2) TT's inability to provide quality ILB and depth at OT. Ignoring ILB is getting to be a huge black mark on his resume. And I know it's hard to get depth at OT but he's missed on a lot of OT prospects. With Bulaga's injury history, backup OT should be on par with a nickel back; maybe not considered a "starter", but you know he's going to get playing time.
3) Lack of improvement in young players: Linsley, Adams, Palmer, R Rodgers, and Janis, plus non-roster guys like Thornton and Bradford either stayed the same or got worse from last year. That kills your team b/c you count on their improvement from first to second year. Throw Lacy in here too b/c we all expected him to be a top 3 RB in the league.
4) MM: He was in a bad spot this year. Last year, catastrophic failings by the defense and special teams made him leave the offense to fix the other two units. Well defense and special teams improved.......only to have the offense fail. It was like a sinking ship; he leaves to go plug holes on defense and special teams, only to see a new hole develop on offense. It's on him to get good coaches but as far as blame, MM can't do everything.
Football more than any sport is a team game and usually when you lose (or win) it is a team effort not just the QB. I really think too much stock is put in to blaming or praising the QB. To me winning a Super Bowl takes:
Luck
Being healthy (I think 2010 is an big exception to this)
The front office getting the players that are needed and the coaches putting them in the best spot to win. then the players applying that and being in the right spot to win
Solid coaching on both sides of the ball. Being balanced as a team in all phases offense, defense and special teams
And leadership is something that you can never have enough of.
DH13 posted:Was AR outplayed by Palmer this year? ... Statistically they're about the same. Both around 51.5QBR. ...
Sounds like a tallest midget competition. Neither had a conference championship worthy performance.
CAPackFan95 posted:"Rodgers, since his brilliant work in 2010, has been outperformed in almost every playoff defeat."
I think Bob's overstating this. And let's look at some context with that statement, shall we?
2009 Umm. Bob. You can't be serious. Outplayed? Rodgers played one of the best playoff games ever. Unfortunately, the opponent got to face a Dom Capers defense that couldn't stop anyone.
2011 Ok? Manning outplayed Rodgers. Slightly. Manning also got to play against one of the worst statistical defenses in NFL history. And had the benefit of a Hail Mary at the end of the half. So, there's that. Manning was statistically better. Rodgers not being as statistically great was not the reason we lost.
2012 Rodgers threw the ball almost identically as well as Kaepernick. Seriously, go look it up. The defense gave up 12 billion yards and 267 points to Kaepernick mainly on the ground because Dom Capers didn't think he needed to practice against that type of threat. Again, Rodgers was NOT the reason we lost this game. Not even close.
2013 Neither QB played great in the cold. The Defense allowing a 5 minute drive to end the game while dropping an INT was the reason we lost.
2014 Russell Wilson did NOT outplay Rodgers. (Jon Ryan however...) 4 INTs come on. The ST and D pissed away the game. MM playing conservative didn't help. Rodgers wasn't great by any means. But, he was NOT outplayed.
2015 Outplayed? Sure. I will agree with that.2 of 6 = almost every playoff defeat. mmkay.
Good post, although I don't think Carson Palmer outplayed Rodgers 10 days ago if that's what you mean for the 2015. Rodgers was clearly better than Palmer in the playoffs.
Rodgers was playing injured in Seattle game... Still outplayed Wilson.
RushRunner posted:DH13 posted:Was AR outplayed by Palmer this year? ... Statistically they're about the same. Both around 51.5QBR. ...
Sounds like a tallest midget competition. Neither had a conference championship worthy performance.
I was responding to a post and article about "Rodgers being outplayed by the opposing QB in playoff games since 2010". He was not outplayed in 2016 playoffs.
And good point about AR being hurt vs. Seattle last year in the NFCC.
I agree with many of the thoughts in these posts, but especially CAPACKFAN95 above.
I think any discussion about Favre's Super Bowl legacy (or deficiency in that department) has to separate the three "Favres" - the Holmgren-era Favre, the Sherman-era Favre, and the McCarthy Favre.
The Holmgren era Favre remains one of the best QBs I've ever seen. A playoff record of 9-5, with 25 TDs and 12 interceptions. He had good, but not great receivers, and decent RBs (although Levens and Edgar were both great receiving RBs).
The Sherman-era Favre in Green Bay went 2-4 (2 home losses) and threw 9 TDs and 14 interceptions. In several of those games, he was playing with the best RB we've had in Green Bay in the modern era (Ahman Green) and the best OL we've seen in a long time in Green Bay (Tauscher-Rivera-Flanagan-Wahle-Clifton). We were all blinded by the Favre is a god hype machine by them, but in retrospect those teams seriously, seriously underachieved. If Andy Reid was hired instead of Ray Rhodes in 1998, there are probably at least two more Super Bowl appearances. Favre was terrible in many of those games. If Rodgers plays his typical playoff game, the Packers win several more games.
The MM Favre threw 5 TDs and 2 interceptions in 2 games. Really, Favre played 7 great quarters in those two games and maybe the worst statistical 4th quarter/OT any playoff QB has ever had.
First 7 quarters, 37-58, 373 yards, 5 TDs, 0 Ints. 110 QB rating
4th Quarter/OT of NFCC 2-11, 36 yards, 0 TDs, 2 Ints. 1.1 QB rating.
Blame Bush, Bigby, Harris getting beat on back-shoulder throws, etc., but if Favre evens plays at a "D" level in the 4th quarter the Packers go to the Super Bowl. He was awful.
The only argument you can make about Rodgers is that in some cases he didn't do enough to win the game by himself. However, I can't think of any case where Rodgers level of play is what you'd look at afterwards and say that that was what caused the loss.