Will This Post Season Define AR/MLF's Individual Legacy?

I would usually say no to something like this but I think this time right or wrong it just might define their legacy.   There are no excuses anymore since everything is out there for them to do this thing.  They have home field, they have Packer weather, and they will have a full stadium.  There are no excuses they have to get it done. Period.  Over the last decade they have been like the Atlanta Braves one title and getting close but not quite there.  Its time to shed that and win it.

For MLF he has to have this team ready.  They cannot come out flat or passive.  Championship coaches have their teams ready. 

#12 has to lead this team and will them to win.  Hopefully he doesn't have to compensate for another pee down their legs performance by the defense.

MLF is in his infancy as a coach and has plenty of time to shape his legacy regardless of what happens this year. Good opinion piece from Silverstein out today about AR's underperforming in the postseason and how this year really is now or never for him.   

In short, no. AR is a first ballot HOF QB who's about to win his 4th NFL MVP. He holds multiple NFL records including an insane TD to INT ratio that will likely never, ever be eclipsed. He's a World Champ and a Super Bowl MVP as well.

Nothing that happens this weekend or beyond will ever change that.

For MLF, agree that it's too early in his tenure for this to define him. He's still considered a young, up and coming HC with plenty of ceiling to still reach.   

@michiganjoe posted:

MLF is in his infancy as a coach and has plenty of time to shape his legacy regardless of what happens this year. Good opinion piece from Silverstein out today about AR's underperforming in the postseason and how this year really is now or never for him.  

Not the 1st article like this to be written and there is something to be said for this. It's not necessarily that Rodgers plays "bad" in these games, though in Wild Card/Divisional games, he and the Packers have recently had no issues moving onto the next round.

It's more that, as a 1st ballot HOFer, and a guy who can absolutely dominate a game, Rodgers can come up small. He has yet to simply take over a NFCC and come out with a mentality that GB is in NO Got Damn way gonna lose this game.

I'd love to see that attitude not only on Saturday but on this entire run this year.

Basically, Rodgers needs a "I fuc**** own you!! " mindset when it comes to getting his 2nd SB. And he's every bit capable of doing that.     

As defined by who?  Defined when?

@packerboi posted:

In short, no. AR is a first ballot HOF QB who's about to win his 4th NFL MVP. He holds multiple NFL records including an insane TD to INT ratio that will likely never, ever be eclipsed. He's a World Champ and a Super Bowl MVP as well.

Nothing that happens this weekend or beyond will ever change that.

I don't disagree with that, but a second Super Bowl win would significantly enhance his legacy. It may not be completely fair, but championships won is a big part of how the position is evaluated.

AR's post season stats not being on par with his regular season stats is kind of obvious.  You play the best teams in the post season.

But aside from his stats,  it also underscores that while you need a great QB to get to the bowl, you also need more than just a great QB.  The epilogue on GB defenses giving up late leads and overall point totals has been extended almost every post season.  And yes, Virginia.  How your D is playing does effect your offense. 

This doesn't absolve AR from needing to be better in the post season, especially at crunch time,  but he'll need some help too. 

@michiganjoe posted:

I don't disagree with that, but a second Super Bowl win would significantly enhance his legacy. It may not be completely fair, but championships won is a big part of how the position is evaluated.

Two titles would get Rodgers into the Brady, P. Manning, Montana conversation in terms of the top 4-5 QBs ever.

One title leaves him in the tier with Brees and Favre. Still top 10-15, but not the equivalent of Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Jackie Robinson, etc. in baseball.

MLF is an interesting one to consider. I don't think you can be considered a Hall of Fame coach until you win a title (or at least get to the Super Bowl - Schottenheimer isn't in the HOF yet while Marv Levy is)

If he lost again before the Super Bowl this year, it would be the second straight year his team lost as the number 1 seed.

How do people view the current professional coaches in the state right now? Budenholzer has a title and a sustained record of regular season success across two teams. MLF has similar regular season success but hasn't cashed in on it in the post-season yet. They both arguably have the best players in the league on their team, but they both "unlocked" potential that other coaches hadn't (as good as AR was in the MM system 10 years ago, he's even better in this system). Counsell has gotten the most of out the least in terms of talent.

No.

I know that we can have a whole other discussion on what defines a “great” QB, and many think that championships  should not be the determining factor, but for me personally it is a major part of it. As much as I respect the hell out of AR’s career on the field, I think the opportunity to win one this year is the team’s for the taking. It will take a collective effort obviously, but given the situation they are in if by anyway they do not capitalize on this opportunity and come out ready to play this weekend and beyond it will speak volumes on what how remember Rodgers and even MLF in this early part of his Packer’s tenure.

I guess what I’m saying in short on all of this is that this year's shot is as good as it’s ever going to get. Obviously could be wrong.

No excuses this year.

If Rodgers and the Packers can win the next 3 games they win that elusive SB title that is really necessary to validate the last decade or so of high level play.

They didn’t get it done in 1995, 1997, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014, or last year.   Obviously 1997 and 2007 and last year were huge missed opportunities.   But it also demonstrates just how difficult it is to win multiple championships within a window of time.

If they fail to close the deal this year, then MLF becomes the new age Marty Schottenheimer or Denny Green.  The Rodgers criticism will be off the charts.  Basically a whole lot of negative shit that none of us want to deal with in the offseason.

10 years from now when I think back on Rodgers career I'll be thinking about 3rd and 10 in the super bowl, him holding the Lombardi trophy with a belt over his shoulder, the hail may to Rich Rodg, coming back after being injured against the bears, all the insane throws he made off platform, and the TD:Int ratio.

If we win this year it'll be added to the list.  If we don't, it won't change what I think above.  In short, this season has a the opportunity to add to his legacy but it sure as hell won't define him.

I think winning the super bowl would catapult Rodgers ahead of everyone but Brady in the public view, but amongst more die hard fans, he would still be considered one of the greats if not the 'dark horse' greatest no matter what. This team has never won without him, he has had  a group of unrestricted free agent or late round receivers for a long time. Jennings, Jones, Cobb and Nelson were pretty average without him. You could make an argument that Davante Adams would be outstanding, but not the best in the business without him. The Packers as a whole are not given much respect. It's about #12.

At least in the mid 90s, Favre played on teams that were absolutely loaded. That has not been the case for Rodgers.

Ernie Banks, Fergie Jenkins Elgin Baylor, Barry Sanders---hard to argue that they weren't at the top of their respected positions. Conversely how is Terry Bradshaw perceived?

It will be interesting to see how his personal choices, statements and stands color his persona...no matter what, he will always have ardent admirers...I see him having some kind of off brand talk show in the after football life, that will keep him in the spotlight and conversation for years. Well, provided he is not predisposed for greater levels of CTE.

This weekend, this postseason, is a part of their legacy(s), but their legacy is definable when their career is over. That's how I look at it.

Brady has had something like 10 top 10 (its allowed) defenses in his career .... AR has had one, the year they won the SB.

@michiganjoe posted:

MLF is in his infancy as a coach and has plenty of time to shape his legacy regardless of what happens this year. Good opinion piece from Silverstein out today about AR's underperforming in the postseason and how this year really is now or never for him.   

Excellent timing by Silversein.  Give AR an even bigger chip on his shoulder.  There is some validity to this, however, there is little margin for error at this stage of the playoffs, and it becomes slimmer each week until after the SB.  You also have to have an A+ effort from the whole team.  Defense has been the achilles heel for the Packers for many, many years.  There's only so much a QB can do.  The old adage that defense wins championships is still true.  Imagine what Rodgers could have done with some of the defenses Brady had.

Rodgers has terrific postseason stats, but for a three-time MVP and 10-time Pro Bowl selection they are not in elite territory. Not even in the areas that have always been his statistical strong points.  

He ranks first all-time in regular-season passer rating (104.5), but sixth in postseason passer rating (150 attempts minimum) with a 100.5 mark, according to Pro Football Reference. Patrick Mahomes (105.1), Bart Starr (104.8), Kurt Warner (102.8), Josh Allen (100.9) and Matt Ryan (100.8) rank ahead of him.

He ranks first all-time in regular-season interception percentage (1.31), but he ranks sixth in postseason annals (1.7) behind Allen (0.60), Alex Smith (0.79), Jared Goff (1.02), Patrick Mahomes (1.3) and Bart Starr (1.4).

He ranks tied for 10th in yards per attempt in the regular season (7.6), but ranks tied for 16th in the postseason, well behind all-time leader Warner (8.6).

Tom mentions both the issues with special teams and defenses the team has had in the postseason in the piece.

@FLPACKER posted:

Brady has had something like 10 top 10 (its allowed) defenses in his career .... AR has had one, the year they won the SB.

It's disappointing to say the least.  I was a staunch believer in draft and develop but the reality is strictly draft and develop only works after you blow up a team and start from scratch.  You get to a point where some guys emerge and become the core of your team.  If you keep with the draft and develop only you just get a revolving door of guys that may be coming up while the old guys cycle out.  It's never enough to get you over the top.  You've got to pad the talent levels.

Gonzo did a great job with making a splash on the Smith bros and Amos.  He needed some persuading to go after guys like Mercilus.  This team is nowhere near a rebuild and they are playing catch up on adding the needed talent to get over the top.

I'm a broken record but that inside Dline wasn't fixed.  That is my only concern going into the upcoming games.

Special teams, we don't talk about them.  Nobody can save that fucking disaster.

I just wish we didn't have a couple of true JAGS anchoring our dline.

Again...

AR historically has needed to play perfectly, or they lose in playoffs. And if he doesn't play perfectly, a faction of the fans blame him for not being perfect, while ignoring that he has gotten, by far, the worst support from his ST and D of any QB with 12 playoff games since 2000.

Rodgers’ offenses have been most productive in the playoffs by that measure, with those led by Brady and Drew Brees not too far behind. The final column shows the key variable beyond the quarterbacks’ control: average combined EPA per game for their teams’ defensive and special-teams units. Here is where Rodgers’ teams rank last by a wide margin — nearly a touchdown per game worse than those for Brady’s teams. By this measure, Rodgers can envy the support Brees and Philip Rivers have received from their defenses and special-teams units during the playoffs, which is really quite remarkable.

The fact that if they win the SB it will be over 10 years since the last one and with a different coach is more evidence of AR's greatness and longevity.  The few QB's that have multiple SB wins have them during a short window of time (their peak years).  Rodgers having them at the bookends of his career probably says more than if he won 2 in a row.

Define is a bit too strong a word.   AR's career has largely been defined - he's arguably the greatest pure passer in NFL history and likely the best QB to ever match arm talent with athleticism and decision making.  Another Super Bowl doesn't really move him up the list.  I also don't look at it like most people, ie: because Elway and Manning limped to two titles, they're somehow "better" because of it. 

MLF is more interesting.  This may be his best shot at a Super Bowl.  But if it is, he may just be another McCarthy, a coach who road the coattails of a great QB to a Super Bowl.  If he never sniffs one again, he'll be like MM.  But if he loses and still is able to build a contender after AR leaves, may actually do more to bolster his spot in history. 

I mean, come the fark on.

"He ranks first all-time in regular-season passer rating (104.5), but sixth in postseason passer rating (150 attempts minimum) with a 100.5 mark, according to Pro Football Reference. Patrick Mahomes (105.1), Bart Starr (104.8), Kurt Warner (102.8), Josh Allen (100.9) and Matt Ryan (100.8) rank ahead of him."

The Packers D has averaged allowing 35 a game in playoff losses with AR.

AR's Passer Rating in those game is "only" 100.5 (6th best all time)

Clearly, you can see the fault lies with Aaron Rodgers.

And how many playoff games has each of those QBs played? I hate those kind of stats.  Outside of Bart where is Tom Brady and Drew Brees?  Surely they would have a higher rating. 

@vitaflo posted:

The fact that if they win the SB it will be over 10 years since the last one and with a different coach is more evidence of AR's greatness and longevity.  The few QB's that have multiple SB wins have them during a short window of time (their peak years).  Rodgers having them at the bookends of his career probably says more than if he won 2 in a row.

The only one that didn't was Manning, but the Broncos won the Super Bowl with him being a game manager - he wasn't the reason they won and any number of QBs could have played in his place and won.

Rodgers would join Brady as being the only ones that truly did it as the most important player on a team with two completely different rosters and coaching staffs (besides Mason Crosby).

@Henry posted:

And how many playoff games has each of those QBs played? I hate those kind of stats.  Outside of Bart where is Tom Brady and Drew Brees?  Surely they would have a higher rating.

QB, Regular Season QB ranking, Playoff QB ranking of HOF-level QBs.

There are some big drop-offs between regular season and playoff QB ranking among the "elite" modern guys are Brady, Big Ben, Marino, Young, Kelly, and P. Manning. Dropping from the 2nd highest rating of all time to "only" 100.4 is not a huge drop. Nobody really goes up significantly, because you don't get to run up your stats against the Lions, Jets, Jags, etc.

Also, let's hold the accolades on Josh Allen until he gets a few more games under his belt. In the 4 playoff games before this weekend he had an 87.5 ranking.

Rodgers, 104.5, 100.4

Brady, 97.6, 91.0

Brees, 98.7, 97.1

Montana, 92.3, 95.6

Elway, 79.9, 79.7

P. Manning, 96.5, 87.4

E. Manning, 84.1, 87.4

Mahomes 105.8, 105.1

Big Ben, 93.5, 86.7

Marino, 86.4, 77.1

S. Young, 96.8, 85.8

Kelly, 84.4, 72.3

Favre, 86.0, 86.3

Tom Brady performs worse in the playoffs than his regular season results.

Huh? Maybe someone should author an article every 20 minutes or so highlighting this fact come playoff time, or is that only for other QBs?

@Timpranillo posted:

I mean, come the fark on.

The Packers D has averaged allowing 35 a game in playoff losses with AR.

THIS right here.  There is a theme with that stat.  To win this this thing its going to be on the shoulders of the defense.

That is the only stat I need - Packers give up 35 points a game when Rodgers loses.  And no, this is not the Rams game where Favre threw 46 interceptions.   Rodgers is not giving the opponent easy points.  The defense has just sucked.  That's the main reason why Rodgers doesn't have another Super Bowl.  That said, I do think Rodgers had a bad game against the Bucs last year.  Two things can be true at the same time.....

I think I am becoming a grumpy old man, but I could give 2 shits about their legacy. Just win the Super Bowl, dammit!

@packerboi posted:

Not the 1st article like this to be written and there is something to be said for this. It's not necessarily that Rodgers plays "bad" in these games, though in Wild Card/Divisional games, he and the Packers have recently had no issues moving onto the next round.

It's more that, as a 1st ballot HOFer, and a guy who can absolutely dominate a game, Rodgers can come up small. He has yet to simply take over a NFCC and come out with a mentality that GB is in NO Got Damn way gonna lose this game.

I'd love to see that attitude not only on Saturday but on this entire run this year.

Basically, Rodgers needs a "I fuc**** own you!! " mindset when it comes to getting his 2nd SB. And he's every bit capable of doing that.     

   

All my defenses of AR or pointing out that the defense and ST has been atrocious during his playoff losses aside, I agree that this playoff run they really need the best version of AR and need him to dominate.

@FLPACKER posted:

Brady has had something like 10 top 10 (its allowed) defenses in his career .... AR has had one, the year they won the SB.

If Rodgers took a Brady sized pay cut he might get one too. No excuses. When your top competitor is taking a holistic approach to winning the Super Bowl, do better.

PS: Don't give me some BS explanation that because he doesn't have a rich wife he can't afford to give up money to help his chances. If he can't live on 25 to 30 million a year I'll take it.

@Goalline posted:

If Rodgers took a Brady sized pay cut

Brady never took a paycut, so kindly stop spreading that blasphemy
(Andrew Brandt debunked that bunk, it was just more mythmaking)

Thx  

Rodgers will actually have to take a pay cut if he wants to go for the back-to-back Titles. Time will tell

Stats stats stats..win the freakin game.

@Satori posted:

Brady never took a paycut, so kindly stop spreading that blasphemy
(Andrew Brandt debunked that bunk, it was just more mythmaking)

Thx  

Rodgers will actually have to take a pay cut if he wants to go for the back-to-back Titles. Time will tell

Whatever! He’s making less money than the great one and more importantly carrying a lower cap number.

Semantics! 😊

Rodgers' 2021 Cap hit 46,444,157

Brady's 2021 Cap hit 18,395,588

X4: How come Brady always has a better team around him than Rodgers. Dame you, Gute, Gunt, Goop, Guppy, or whatever other millions of names folks call him on the board when he doesn't sign all the superstar defenders available.

Montana and Eli were the only QB's to actually get better in the post season.