All Time Starting 5

I'd go with Kareem over Olajuwon. I'd probably also take Chamberlain and Shaq over Hakeem (at least the 5-6 years that Shaq cared enough to get in shape). I think Kareem is the second best player of all time. Too many people only remember him as the 35-40 year guy who lumbered up and down the floor and shot sky hooks. That Kareem was still an All-Star level guy. They don't consider the 25 year old Kareem that ran the floor as well as any big guy, blocked tons of shots (his first 4 years it wasn't even a stat), and was a great post passer. The year the Bucks won the title he average 35 points, 17 rebounds, and 5 assists per game. He was the NBA finals MVP when he was 23 years old and when he was 37 years old. He was All-NBA defense 11 times.

PG. Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson (assuming you count him as a PG) over Stockton.

Hakeem took an in his best shape Shaq and schooled him 4 games. The two Houston titles Hakeem took down David Robinson the year he won MVP, Patrick Ewing, Shaquille O’Neal. Hakeem  took down the Lakers in 85-86, lost to Boston in the Finals. Granted Kareem was a bit past his prime in 85-86, but he took Kareem for 31-11-4 blocks a game and Kareem was their#1 scorer at 27/game. 

Hes the best C to play the game IMO. 

My PG choice is about the fit, not the individual per se. And I’ll gladly take the all time leader in assists who was also one of the game’s best defenders at his position.

I'd take Oscar over Stockton.

Music - Great discussion, but as you say Kareem was past his prime in 85-86 (he was 38 years old) and still averaged 23 a game. Hakeem was done as an elite player at 34 years old. Kareem was perhaps the dominant basketball player in the world from the time he was a college sophomore until he was about 33 years old - and then he was an all-star 8 more times (and probably a legit all-star 6 times out of those 8). He went 88-2 at UCLA with 3 national titles in 3 years. UCLA lost by 2 points in both losses. Kareem was 79-2 in high school as well. I liked Hakeem as well, but I think Kareem was better than anyone who ever played besides Michael Jordan.

Winshares is a metric that basketballreference.com uses to estimate the number of wins a player produces for his team. This can be calculated on its own, or by finding a player's Offensive Win Shares and Defensive Win Shares, and adding those together. This number is generally calculated using full-season statistics.

Kareem's win shares by season are the following; 25.4, 22.3, 21.9, 18.4, 17.8, 17.0, 14.8, 14.4, 14.3, 13.8, 12.9, 12.1, 11.2, 10.9. 10.8. 10.7, 8.9, 7.5, 5.3, 2.9.

Here are Hakeem's: 15.8, 14.3, 12.4, 11.2, 10.9, 10.7, 10.7, 10.2, 9.8, 9.7, 9.5, 9.1, 8.6, 6.5, 5.0, 4.5, 2.1, 1.6.

In other words, Kareem had 6 years better than Hakeem's best year.

Lebron's best winshare season is 20.3, Jordan's was 21.2, Wilt hit 25.

Kareem was underrated.

It’s difficult to look at win shares in basketball, because the eras are so different. There’s no questioning Kareem’s greatness, that would be foolish. But Kareem did not face the level of greatness that the next generation of bigs represented. Hakeem played in the golden age of the big man- Ewing, Robinson, Shaq... and beat them all. 

PG - Magic

SG - Jordan

SF - Bird

PF - Bill Russell (I know he was a center mostly but i put him as a PF)

C - Chamberlain 

PG - Bugsy Mogues

SG - Junior Bridgeman

PF - Harvey Catchings

SF - Brian Winters

C - Paul Mokeski

Sheesh.....you guys are Dum

Child please

PG- Lee Mayberry 

SG- Shawn Respert

SF- Blue Edwards 

PF- Brad Lohaus 

C - Frank Brickowski 

or 

PG - Big O 

SG- Ray Allen 

SF- Sidney Moncrief

PF-  Giannis 

C- Kareem 

What no Jack Sikma or Lanier?

The Heckler posted:

What no Jack Sikma or Lanier?

I was thinking Randy Breuer.

If Lanier hadn't hurt his knee during the NCAA tournament in college, he'd have probably moved way up the list into the top guys of all time. Lanier had 8 knee operations while he was still playing and always seemed to miss about 15-20 games a year. As it was, he was an 8 time all-star and no doubt about it HOFer. He was a 25/12 guy for a large part of his career. A great person as well - got his college degree and would have been successful at anything he chose to do in life.

Tschmack posted:

Child please

PG- Lee Mayberry 

SG- Shawn Respert

SF- Blue Edwards 

PF- Brad Lohaus 

C - Frank Brickowski 

or 

PG - Big O 

SG- Ray Allen 

SF- Sidney Moncrief

PF-  Giannis 

C- Kareem 

And then to round out the first group- Joe Alexander (8th pick in the draft), Yi Jianlian (6th overall pick), Robert Traylor (if only because we actually drafted DIrk and traded him AND another player for Traylor), and Randy Breuer.

To add to the second list for reserves: Marques Johnson, Bobby Dandridge, Bob Lanier, and Paul Pressey (probably the top on-ball defensive player in team history who was a better offensive player than most remember).

Those Bucks teams of the 80's sure were fun to watch.  It was a shame they could never make it past the Celtics, 76ers, etc,  Always so close but not quite good enough.

A cool Larry Bird story.  I went to a Bucks vs. Celtics game at the old Mecca in Milwaukee and we watched Bird come out and shooting early all by himself.  he would shoot the ball, make the shot, and he would run to a spot on the floor and the ball met him every single time.   He not only made the shot he put the perfect spin on the ball.

Tschmack posted:

PG - Big O 

SG- Ray Allen 

SF- Sidney Moncrief

PF-  Giannis 

C- Kareem 

There may come a day that this one would legitimately be an All Time lineup... but Sir Sid has to come off the bench with Terry Cummings because #8 gets the nod at SF. 

Cummings was a PF, no way he unseats Sid.  

A perfect bench of Cummings, Paul Pressey (someone has to play defense when Sid was out), Margues Johnson, Michael Redd, Jack Sikma, Ricky Pierce, Fred Roberts and Brad Lohaus.  

Ray Allen is a shooting guard

So is Sir Sid

Music City posted:

So is Sir Sid

Music City posted:

So is Sir Sid

Sidney is his prime would have neutralized Ray Allen's offense. So would have Paul Pressey. 

Agree, I want Moncrief starting every game and handcuffing the opposing teams scorer.  

Fred Roberts and Brad Lohaus just make the squad to make the team photo more handsome.  Big Dog, despite being a great Buck, is completely redundant on any best of team as there is a team player who makes the team better.  Jay Humphries if Lohaus is too busy.  

Alaa Abdelnaby needs to make the team so I have one player to hate.  Lester Connor and Randy Bruer get the old fashioned 10 day contracts.  

El-Ka-Bong posted:

Fred Roberts and Brad Lohaus just make the squad to make the team photo more handsome.  

You can't have an All-time Bucks photogenic team without Paul Mokeski. You just can't. 

Valid point.  

We should probably start a new thread for the true Bucks dreamy team

For all the kids, Oscar was a monster.  Find his back up only at guard.

The Heckler posted:

Those Bucks teams of the 80's sure were fun to watch.  It was a shame they could never make it past the Celtics, 76ers, etc,  Always so close but not quite good enough.

A cool Larry Bird story.  I went to a Bucks vs. Celtics game at the old Mecca in Milwaukee and we watched Bird come out and shooting early all by himself.  he would shoot the ball, make the shot, and he would run to a spot on the floor and the ball met him every single time.   He not only made the shot he put the perfect spin on the ball.

I once read that he shot for 10 or so minutes never missing a shot while putting enough spin on the ball that it came back to him very time. Hard to believe but he was Larry Joe Bird.

Tschmack posted:

Child please

PG- Lee Mayberry 

SG- Shawn Respert

SF- Blue Edwards 

Man, those names brought back bad memories of the early to mid '90s.  I had partial season tickets at that time, and it got to the point that my season ticket partner and I dreaded going to the games they were so awful. 

My love for Fred Roberts comes honorably, I remember attending a game and sneaking down court side during warm ups (when you could still do that) and standing next to Manute Bol and realizing A) how incredibly tall he really was, b) how incredibly skinny he really was and C) how he strongly resembled a raisin.  This was the sixer team when Barkley wore the mask.  

That game, Fred Roberts dunked on Manute and I knew what a superstar really was.   

It's not much of a story but...  Larry Bird gave a talk at a basketball camp I attended.  He stepped to the top of the arc and missed two shots in a row and we all startled chuckling a bit.  He turned around and asked if anyone wanted to bet on him missing the next one.  No one took the bet and he drained it.  Complete confidence in himself and his shot, such a pure shooter.

Question for this forum. Is Giannis already the second best player in Bucks history? At this point, you have to get a LONG way down the list of best Bucks players in history before you would list another current team member and this Bucks team is at a pace to win 60 games. I've ranked all the Bucks ever to make an All-Star team on this list. Where will Middleton, Bledsoe, and Brogdon fit on this list eventually? 

1. Kareem

2. Giannis

3. Moncrief

4. Oscar Robertson (end of career Bucks version - not the top 20 in history guy who'd be #2 on this list)

5. Marques Johnson

6. Ray Allen

7. Bob Lanier

8. Bobby Dandridge

10. Terry Cummings

11. Vin Baker

12. Glenn Robinson

13. Brian Winters (if he'd have played today his 3 point shooting would have really made him a bigger star. He shot 36% back when it was considered poor shot selection to take them). 

14. Ricky Pierce

15. Alvin Robertson

16. Michael Redd

17. Sam Cassell

18. Junior Bridgeman

19. Jon  McGlocklin

20. Flynn Robinson

21. Jim Price

MichiganPacker2 posted:

Question for this forum. Is Giannis already the second best player in Bucks history? At this point, you have to get a LONG way down the list of best Bucks players in history before you would list another current team member and this Bucks team is at a pace to win 60 games. I've ranked all the Bucks ever to make an All-Star team on this list. Where will Middleton, Bledsoe, and Brogdon fit on this list eventually? 

1. Kareem

2. Giannis

3. Moncrief

4. Oscar Robertson (end of career Bucks version - not the top 20 in history guy who'd be #2 on this list)

5. Marques Johnson

6. Ray Allen

7. Bob Lanier

8. Bobby Dandridge

10. Terry Cummings

11. Vin Baker

12. Glenn Robinson

13. Brian Winters (if he'd have played today his 3 point shooting would have really made him a bigger star. He shot 36% back when it was considered poor shot selection to take them). 

14. Ricky Pierce

15. Alvin Robertson

16. Michael Redd

17. Sam Cassell

18. Junior Bridgeman

19. Jon  McGlocklin

20. Flynn Robinson

21. Jim Price

Edit: I included Bridgeman, but he never made an all-star team, so there's only 20 guys that have made an All-star team for the Bucks. 

Giannis is no worse than 3rd on that list behind Kareem & the Big O.

That’s a pretty good list MP 

I’d have Ray Allen higher than Marques Johnson and would probably slot Big Dog right ahead of Vin Baker. 

Moncrief was just a beast and was a lot like Sterling Sharpe in that he was just so physically imposing that he played much bigger than his actual size.  That’s why I had him at the 3 spot because there were times he would D up against bigger guards and some SFs as well. 

I’m not sure he’d be as effective in today’s NBA but he was one scrappy SOB and a better offensive player that he probably gets credit for. 

I want my team good (and big).

PG - Magic
2G - Jordan
SF - Bird
PF - Olajuwon
C - Chamberlain

I think Olajuwon had the shot and the footwork to easily play PF.  I once saw a video of an older Wilt playing Jabbar.  I think Kareem was a rookie.  More than once, Wilt blocked his sky hook.  His sky hook!

For height, I'd consider George Gervin at 6'7" as a two guard.

For the Bucks, Moncrief for me exemplifies the Bucks more than anyone else.

It was after his Buck's years, but another fine player was Alex English.

Thought to look at a youtube of Wilt highlights and came accross this in the comments section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8
On 2/2/1986 Kareem (2 months shy of his 39th bday) outscored Patrick Ewing 40 to 9. On 2/5/1985 (2 months shy of his 38th bday), Kareem outscored Olajuwon 40 to 30. On 2/6/1986 (2 months shy of his 39th bday), Kareem outscored Olajuwon 46 to 18. On 3/16/1986 (1 month shy of his 39th bday), Kareem outscored Olajuwon 43 to 21. In 23 regular season games, from 1985-1989, a very old Kareem had more points and more assists (in fewer minutes), a higher FT%, and a much higher FG% (61% to 51%) than Olajuwon. In 8 regular season games, from 1985-1989, against Ewing a very old Kareem had more points and more assists (in less minutes), had a higher FT% and a much higher FG% (58% to 45%) Kareem was over 40 years old by April of 1987. In their last game against each other (when Kareem was 42), Kareem outrebounded the leagues leading rebounder! (Olajuwon) and scored 21 points on 53% shooting against a 1st team all defensive center (Olajuwon). Both of them were all defensive centers during this time. Ewing was ROY in 1986. This is not a slight against Ewing or Olajuwon; it's a testament to the greatness of Kareem!

Kareem was able to do the thing he was greatest at for all of his 20 year career- score. Olajuwon in 84-86 was just entering the league- never was a prolific scorer, and it’s not surprising a rookie and then second year player was given a lesson by one of the All Time greats. Kareem certainly got up for those matchups.

It’s what Hakeem did to Kareem in the ‘86 playoffs that passed the torch. 

I've said in many other threads that Kareem is underrated when discussion of the all-time greats happens. A lot of people remember as the slow-footed 40 year old (who was still effective), not the 22 year old guy the Bucks had who could run the floor as well as any big man. 

One of my favorite Kareem stats is that he had 7 triple doubles with points-rebounds- blocks and the NBA didn't count blocks his first 4 years in the league.