Bucks up 68-66. Pacers trying to meet Dame beat them instead of Giannis and Dame is helping them with another poor game (3 for 9 from the floor and 1 for 5 from deep). The rest of the team is 24-40 and 8-15. If you take out Portis (with another rough shooting night), the other Bucks besides Dame/Portis are 21-33 and 8-13 from three.
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Bucks start the half giving up a 5 foot shot, a turnover for a dunk, and a wide open layup followed by another turnover. Looks like they fell asleep at the half.
Might get blown out tonight. Lopez almost air balls a 3, Pacers get a wide open 3 when the Bucks don't communicate on transition defense, followed by another Dame miss
Now down 5.
This is a really bad matchup for the Bucks.
Down 8 and getting blown out to start the half.
Dame is now 6 for 26 in and 2 for 14 from three in 2024.
Now down 13. Lopez misses a layup. Dame with a shot that doesn't draw iron.
Pacers know they have their number.
This is embarrassing at this point. The Pacers are taking away Giannis and Middleton and the Bucks are helpless.
Dame is 3 for 13 and 6 for 29 over the last 7 quarters against them - and he might be even worse on defense.
Is Dame trying to get traded? I'm half serious.
40 points in a quarter to a team that’s just a hair over .500 really doesn’t give me a lot of confidence how we’ll do in the playoffs. All teams have to do is emulate what Indiana is doing.
Dame needs to pull his head out of his ass, and this team needs to start playing some damn defense.
Dame said a couple weeks ago....he didn't have his stroke.
Losing 4 out of 5 to these guys is ridiculous
🤦♂️
Low point.....Will Horst do anything??
I'm actually kind of glad this happened now. Let's see if they recover from the adversity
Now 44 points given up in the third.
This Bucks team should be embarrassed.
Bucks give up 47 points in the third. Trail by 16.
Dame is getting humiliated by the Pacers. They are trash talking him.
@Boris posted:Dame said a couple weeks ago....he didn't have his stroke.
Losing 4 out of 5 to these guys is ridiculous
🤦♂️
Low point.....Will Horst do anything??
I'm actually kind of glad this happened now. Let's see if they recover from the adversity
Dame doesn't really want to be here. That's the underlying problem right now. His interview two days ago was basically how he doesn't like that he doesn't have the ball all the time.
He might just be a guy who would rather score 40 and lose than 25 and win.
47 points given up in the 3rd.
At least they held them to under 50 points that half...erhhh I meant quarter
@MichiganPacker posted:Dame doesn't really want to be here. That's the underlying problem right now. His interview two days ago was basically how he doesn't like that he doesn't have the ball all the time.
He might just be a guy who would rather score 40 and lose than 25 and win.
Really?!? You gotta wonder if it's something else.....personally related. Off the court
Pacers just got a steal and did a lob off the backboard for a dunk. They have emasculated the Bucks the last two games. Usually regular season doesn't mean much, but the Bucks have played like a team that they were against Miami in the playoffs last year when the intensity goes up. Mentally not tough enough.
2nd round playoffs is their ceiling this year
Pacers now have 54 points in 14 minutes.
Griffin should just pull all the starters at this point. Getting Giannis hurt in a meaningless quarter would be about the only thing that could make this worse.
@mr21mr21 posted:2nd round playoffs is their ceiling this year
Not if they get the Pacers in round 1.
The Pacers are taunting and mocking them right now.
Portis has played like a mental midget and Dame has been the worst player on the court the last two games.
Hmm 🤔 interesting.....
Let's see how the Bucks respond to this beat down.
Remember guys .....humans not robots
Giannis is 19 for 31 from the floor, 14 for 18 from the line, has 27 rebounds, and 20 assists in the two games and the Bucks are going to lose by an average of double digits.
This Pacer team beat the Bucks then decided to go 4-6 out of their next 10.
They're also mental midgets....and decide to play only because it's the Bucks and Giannis.
But the Bucks.....there is something else going on with them. It'll be interesting to see if they can get past it
The Bucks haven't been this humiliated in a while. They've been blown out, but not in this way. They are being mocked and laughed at.
Bucks give up 76 points the second half and if the Pacers wouldn't have taken the starters out with 2 minutes left it would have easily been 80.
@Boris posted:This Pacer team beat the Bucks then decided to go 4-6 out of their next 10.
They're also mental midgets....and decide to play only because it's the Bucks and Giannis.
But the Bucks.....there is something else going on with them. It'll be interesting to see if they can get past it
It's almost all Dame and Portis. Everyone else is OK for the most part.
This is the perfect time for this type of adversity to rear it's ugly head. Not in March!
Fight out of it boys 💪🤜🏼
@Boris posted:This Pacer team beat the Bucks then decided to go 4-6 out of their next 10.
They're also mental midgets....and decide to play only because it's the Bucks and Giannis.
But the Bucks.....there is something else going on with them. It'll be interesting to see if they can get past it
And again, I point to Adrian Griffin. This team is going to win a lot of games on talent alone. When they’re on, maybe one or two other teams can match the 1-2 punch of the Freak and Dame. Even when the team is not firing on all cylinders, they can still beat most anybody. A big game from one of Milwaukee’s three stars can overcome a hell of a lot. Giannis can just take over a game. Dame or Middleton can go on some ridiculous runs where they can’t miss.
But far too often, this team just appears uninterested. And that is a big problem. Every season is 82 games. Every season is a marathon. They are paid professionals…very highly-paid professionals, and one game came make or break a season. One game can be the difference between meeting a team in the playoffs that you can beat with your eyes closed, and another that serves as a real threat to end your season. I don’t care if they are tired from a long flight, or if they’re not happy playing on Christmas Day. You knew what you were signing up for. I didn’t like going to bed at 7 am four days a week when I worked the international markets as a stock broker. But it was the job, and I was well compensated.
If there is discord in the locker room, the head coach needs to address it, and help the team get past it once and for all. If the team is dogging it, then the head coach needs to give them a swift kick in the ass.
Football is a different sport, and athletes are different today, clearly, but Vince Lombardi took over a 1-11-1 team in 1959 an had them in the NFL Championship Game the next year, and they won five of the next seven championships.
Lombardi was a master psychologist. He knew precisely how to motivate each and every player. He could be tough, and ran them until they dropped, but he also praised them, and there was love in the locker room for the men that gave their all to him. He squeezed every last drop of ability out of them. There was pride being a member of the Green Bay Packers. Look at Phil Jackson, and the egos he had to manage. Michael Jordan was a narcissist of unrivaled proportions. Dennis Rodman was the ultimate wild card. That team could have been, and probably should have been a disaster. Watching The Last Dance, it’s a miracle that there weren’t fights in practice on a daily basis. Yet the Zen Master held it together. Then he went to LA and managed the egos of Shaq and Kobe, and they won just like the Bulls did.
The man with the keys to the car can make or break a team.
Adrian Griffin doesn’t have it. The easiest sell in the world before tonight’s game was to appeal to this team’s ego.
”They scored 38 on you in the 4th….at home LAST NIGHT.” How do you want to respond?
Well, tonight the Bucks gave up nearly 50 in a quarter. The Pacers were mocking them.
Where is this team’s fucking pride? Where is their guts?
I don’t care what our record is. I’ve seen enough to know that Griffin isn’t the guy, and Giannis has to see it now, too. The only question now is how much more of Gianni’s’ peak will we waste treading water before making a move at the top? This team isn’t winning a championship with Adrian Griffin driving the bus. It ain’t gonna happen.
I think most folks probably have the same thoughts. Better make a change soon if it's going to happen.....or flush a promising season right down the toilet.
I'm just waiting to see rock bottom, then bet the Bucks to win it all 😁
It’s been discussed here what kind of window Giannis has as an elite player. So much of his game depends on his sheer athleticism. When that starts to go, we’re going to have a big guy that is a a poor shooter from outside the paint, and can’t make free throws. At this point, it’s highly unlikely those facets of his game improve. He is pretty good at dishing the ball-I would rank his passing ability as a plus for a guy his size. Not Jokic, obviously, but it’s a positive. And he will still be able to rebound a bit. But power and speed is a big part of his offense, and a nagging injury could really slow him.
He turned 29 on December 6th. If we’re lucky, and the wear and tear of the game doesn’t hit him like a brick wall, maybe he can maintain his elite play through his age 32 or 33 season. The team has paced his minutes, so maybe they end up extending that window.
But we’ve basically lost two chances at a chip because of injuries to our then big three.,we had the best record in the NBA last year, and in 2019-‘20, and failed to reach the Finals in either year.
There are only so many opportunities, and I don’t want this to become another case where we have a true all-time great player, and only win one title during their stay in Milwaukee. It happened with Kareem. It happened with Favre. It happened with Rodgers. At some point, one of these blue chip players need to bank home multiple titles.
Giannis talks a good game. I know the guy plays his ass off. Well, he is the team, and ownership will do whatever he asks. It’s time he leverages that power and gets this team back on track.
I don't think Griffin is a top coach by any means, but he's shown enough to convince me he's not the biggest problem. Thinking he could play the trapping, pressure defense he started the season playing with this personnel was idiotic, but he's adjusted well. He's tried zone. He's tried a lot of things. He's running much better offensive sets than Bud ever did.
The underlying problem is that the roster construction is fundamentally flawed. The Bucks have three guards that are playable for playoff-type minutes - Dame, Beasley, and Payne. They are all terrible defense players. Grayson Allen was a shutdown defender compared to them. Not only that, while Beasley and Payne at least try, for the most part Dame looks like he treats defense as the unnecessary part of the game before getting the ball back.
You could get away with playing one poor guard defender at a time against good offensive teams, but not two. The other problem is that you have to have either Dame or Payne in the game most of the time, as their other wing options can't handle the ball at all against pressure (Connaughton, Jackson, Beauchamp).
The problem is that Bucks don't have much to trade that anyone else is going to want. Assume Giannis is untouchable and that Middleton is worth more to Milwaukee than any other team. What could you get for the others to do a reset? I would guess there are only 4 other guys that other teams would want.
Dame - obviously you could get a boat load for him, but he's probably untouchable as well. If you come to the conclusion the pairing with Giannis is never going to work, then you could consider moving him. But I think that only happens if they flame out in Round 1 of the playoffs. If Miami give you a package of Herro and Adebayo, maybe, but that's not going to happen.
Brook Lopez - definitely has value - especially in the Western conference where he's as good as anyone to put on Jokic. He's very valuable in a matchup with Embiid, but he's likely to get played off the floor in the playoffs versus the other top teams in the East.
Beasley - one of the best minimum contract guys in the NBA. Why would you trade him at this point? You can't get much back for him in terms of a salary match anyway. There is probably no minimum salary guy you'd get back that was close to his level.
Portis - has value for a team that has no inside scoring presence and has to win now. But he's not a guy that can be on the floor at the end of a playoff game due to his defense. The Warriors come to mind as a potential landing spot.
They have no one else to trade that anyone is going to want.
Pat Connaughton turns 31 this weekend. He just signed a 3 year contract worth 29 million. He's not a traffic cone on defense yet, but he's not a 10 million dollar player. No one is going to want that contract and it's the type of contract the Bucks will be trying to offload soon to save luxury tax dollars. He has negative trade value at this point.
The other contracts are minimum contract guys that are on the family plan (R. Lopez, Thanasis) or young guys that are at the G league level (Beauchamp, Jackson, Green, Livingston, and the two way players).
The only real options to shake up the team are to trade either Brook Lopez or Portis. Maybe you could send Portis and some other contracts to the Warriors and get Wiggins? It would save some tax bills for the Warriors long term and give them some interior scoring.
The other way to look at it is that the Bucks are 24-10 and on pace to win 58 games. They are 23-6 against everyone other than the Pacers and 21-4 against everyone else since going back to drop defense with Lopez. Teams with an all-NBA point guard dominant offensive attack are a bad matchup for them, but that means that they are going to mainly struggle against the Pacers, Thunder, and Warriors (depends on how good you think Maxey is as well). That's not going to be the case against the Heat or Celtics who are probably still the most likely teams to knock them out in a 7 game series.
It will interesting to see what Horst does. The guy that is the best fit for what they need on the salary they can afford is Jevon Carter. He's exactly the type of guy they need.
Indiana is just a bad matchup overall. If you take out the 4 games they’ve played against the Pacers they are on pace for 60 wins. With a team that’s considered to be “flawed.”
What’s really interesting is outside of Indiana I think the Bucks match up pretty well against Boston and Miami and to some extent even Philly. And let’s remember - in a 7 games series you need to beat Milwaukee at least 4 times.
Defensively this team needs to get better. Getting back Crowder will help but I think they still need another guy. I’ve said it before but if they could find a way to trade Portis and Pat C for Marcus Smart that would be fantastic.
@Tschmack posted:Indiana is just a bad matchup overall. If you take out the 4 games they’ve played against the Pacers they are on pace for 60 wins. With a team that’s considered to be “flawed.”
What’s really interesting is outside of Indiana I think the Bucks match up pretty well against Boston and Miami and to some extent even Philly. And let’s remember - in a 7 games series you need to beat Milwaukee at least 4 times.
Defensively this team needs to get better. Getting back Crowder will help but I think they still need another guy. I’ve said it before but if they could find a way to trade Portis and Pat C for Marcus Smart that would be fantastic.
We agree on the fit for Marcus Smart. The problem is that Memphis needs him for the same reason Milwaukee does - he's a great fit next to an offensive supernova guard who is a liability on defense. Ja Morant and Dame have similar problems on the defensive end of the floor.
The trickle down on losing Holiday has been larger than I thought. We don't have one legitimate on ball defender. Giannis is a great weak side help defender but not laterally quick enough to guard any of these top scorers. Middleton has improved but he's still an average defender at best. Why did they have him on Haliburton at the end of the game? It was laughable. I don't think Crowder is the answer, as he looked average as a defender and will be coming off a serious injury. He may not be 100%, even by playoff time. They'll need to move Portis, maybe even look at Lopez, though I like him in match ups against some teams (Sixers, Nuggets).
Boston can beat you with offense and/or defense. Bucks can only beat you with offense. It's not a coincidence we won a championship with Tucker in our closing five. This team needs A LOT of help if it really wants to contend.
@The Crusher posted:The trickle down on losing Holiday has been larger than I thought. We don't have one legitimate on ball defender. Giannis is a great weak side help defender but not laterally quick enough to guard any of these top scorers. Middleton has improved but he's still an average defender at best. Why did they have him on Haliburton at the end of the game? It was laughable. I don't think Crowder is the answer, as he looked average as a defender and will be coming off a serious injury. He may not be 100%, even by playoff time. They'll need to move Portis, maybe even look at Lopez, though I like him in match ups against some teams (Sixers, Nuggets).
Boston can beat you with offense and/or defense. Bucks can only beat you with offense. It's not a coincidence we won a championship with Tucker in our closing five. This team needs A LOT of help if it really wants to contend.
They weren't going to win another title without getting a better offensive guard than Holiday. Holiday's shortcomings on offense in a playoff series were the equivalent of Dame's on defense. With the Bucks, Jrue shot 39.6% from the floor and 30.4% from three in 40 playoff games. He was awful. At least they aren't running back the same team only to lose when Holiday misses about 5 step back threes or tries to drive into the lane against playoff level defense. He actually shot worse overall for the Bucks in the playoffs than Bledsoe did (Bledsoe was at 41.1% and 25.4% from three). That's the challenge. There are very few point guards who are great two way players. Chris Paul in his prime was but he never won a title, and even Steph Curry was just good enough on defense to survive when he was surrounded by 3-4 elite wing or on-ball defenders (some combination of Green, Iguodala, pre-ACL Klay Thompson, Kevin Durant, Andrew Wiggins, and Harrison Barnes).
The Bucks challenge is that you can't play a non-shooter in crunch time with Giannis because you see seasons end with teams allowing Holiday or Eric Bledsoe to take wide open shots in the playoffs. But you can't play another weak defender with Dame in the backcourt. And when Lopez gets played off the floor by teams going small, you end up with Portis, Dame, and Beasley all on the floor which is a disaster on the defensive end.
In the playoffs, Jrue was a D+ on offense and an A on defense. Bledsoe was a D-/A-. Dame is probably going to be a A on offense and they can win if he just gives them D+ defense, but I'm not sure he can.
Middleton was matched up against Haliburton last night because he at least made Haliburton work to shoot over him or get around him. Dame and Beasley really can't guard anybody, so they weren't options. Beauchamp and Jackson are G league players and can't be out there at the end of close games. Griffin clearly didn't trust Connaughton in that situation either - and he was probably the only other option on defense -unless you were going to play Giannis on him, but then there is no backstop on defense if Lopez is out as well
Again, if you simply trade out Holiday for Dame that’s a big plus for Milwaukee. It’s easy to forget but since winning the title Holiday was awful offensively and quite honestly he was horrible defensively against Miami last year as well.
The issue is Dame and (insert another guard on this roster) can’t play together because their defensive woes are compounded even worse. So unless both Dame and let’s say Beasley have good offensive performances it won’t offset what they are giving up defensively.
By the way, I think for what Beasley gives you and what they are paying him he’s a decent guy but I’d rather he come off the bench to spell a guy like Lillard.
Making matters worse is Cameron Payne is a similar player to Beasley. All offense and very little defense.
MP2 mentioned Jevon Carter and if there was a way they could deal a Beasley or Payne for a defensive minded guy that would really help this team.
The other issue is I’m really starting to wonder if Brook Lopez has a place with Milwaukee. As good as he is, he’s not really playable against teams like Indiana or Miami or probably even Boston. If they faced Philly, that’s a different story but I’m not sure it’s worth it to keep him as he’s one of maybe a couple of players on the roster that has OK to good trade value.
In reality, it’s Portis, Pat C, and Lopez that could be used to upgrade their defense but I’m not sure Pat C has much value and Bobby is the heart and soul of this team and a really good bench guy.
Dealing Lopez may hurt their interior defense and rebounding but it doesn’t matter if teams spread you out and expose you even with dribble penetration. For all of his blocks, he’s given up a ton of layups or fouls, which get converted into FT attempts.
Getting Crowder back will help but it still doesn’t solve their defensive woes in the backcourt. They need another guy to pair with Dame and/or rotate in when Dame’s on the bench. Beasley can spell Dame and give you 10-15 a night. But that means nothing if he’s giving up 20-25.
The perfect guy to add would be Alex Caruso. But I doubt Chicago would do it.
@Tschmack posted:Again, if you simply trade out Holiday for Dame that’s a big plus for Milwaukee. It’s easy to forget but since winning the title Holiday was awful offensively and quite honestly he was horrible defensively against Miami last year as well.
The issue is Dame and (insert another guard on this roster) can’t play together because their defensive woes are compounded even worse. So unless both Dame and let’s say Beasley have good offensive performances it won’t offset what they are giving up defensively.
By the way, I think for what Beasley gives you and what they are paying him he’s a decent guy but I’d rather he come off the bench to spell a guy like Lillard.
Making matters worse is Cameron Payne is a similar player to Beasley. All offense and very little defense.
MP2 mentioned Jevon Carter and if there was a way they could deal a Beasley or Payne for a defensive minded guy that would really help this team.
The other issue is I’m really starting to wonder if Brook Lopez has a place with Milwaukee. As good as he is, he’s not really playable against teams like Indiana or Miami or probably even Boston. If they faced Philly, that’s a different story but I’m not sure it’s worth it to keep him as he’s one of maybe a couple of players on the roster that has OK to good trade value.
In reality, it’s Portis, Pat C, and Lopez that could be used to upgrade their defense but I’m not sure Pat C has much value and Bobby is the heart and soul of this team and a really good bench guy.
Dealing Lopez may hurt their interior defense and rebounding but it doesn’t matter if teams spread you out and expose you even with dribble penetration. For all of his blocks, he’s given up a ton of layups or fouls, which get converted into FT attempts.
Getting Crowder back will help but it still doesn’t solve their defensive woes in the backcourt. They need another guy to pair with Dame and/or rotate in when Dame’s on the bench. Beasley can spell Dame and give you 10-15 a night. But that means nothing if he’s giving up 20-25.The perfect guy to add would be Alex Caruso. But I doubt Chicago would do it.
Chicago is going to get at least one first round pick for Caruso from someone in addition to a player. The Bucks have no picks left to deal until the 2030s.
