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Last year, I came across an article in the local paper that the state Department of Environmental Conservation was running an annual Catskills Fire Tower Challenge, which involves climbing to the five fire towers on mountain peaks in the Catskills, as well as a sixth installed a few years back at a visitors' center.  Unfortunately, a bunch of events conspired last year to prevent me from doing the challenge, so I decided I'd finally do it this year.  Posts with copious photos to come as I get the time, other than to point out that my new avatar is from the top of Hunter Mountain, the highest of the five fire towers at a bit over 4000 feet, which I know isn't much for those of you out in the Rockies. 

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I'd have to say that the "worst" of the five towers is atop Tremper Mountain.  (Worst here in the sense of ratio of work put in to get to the tower and the reward.)  It's actually probably the easiest to get to the trailhead, since it's not far off Route 28 that is the main east-west route in the county.  But both the north and the south trails are fairly steep, with the south side averaging about 12.5% and the north side being a 1200' vertical gain in 1.7 miles followed by about another 300 feet in two undulating miles.  The tower feels like it's in a bit more need of restoration than the other towers, and harder to get a good view if the cab isn't open -- there are volunteers on summer weekends depending on the weather, but the cabs aren't always open.  It's also the only one of the five without a separate cabin for the rangers who would stay up there to watch for fires in the old days.

When I went in June, the weather was a bit misty, not breaking until I was halfway back down the north side of the mountain.  But I did get the obligatory selfie:

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Since I was going to do some articles about the fire tower challenge elsewhere, I decided to do another hike up the mountain a few weeks back to get some more photos, this time from the south side.  When I got to the trailhead I was the first car there, but amazingly, the cab was open even though there was nobody else up there, and I was able to get a few good views from the cab:

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That bit of water in the center of the second photo is the western edge of the Ashokan Reservoir.

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Next up: Red Hill.

You know that old Far Side cartoon where the couple is literally entering the middle of nowhere?  I was thinking of using that cartoon for another of the fire towers, which is in the Town of Hardenburgh.  If you look at a map of Ulster County, you'll see that triangle protruding to the west: that's Hardenburgh, and you can't get there from the rest of the county without first driving into Delaware County.  That's bad, but actually getting to the trailhead wasn't.  Denning, where Red Hill is located, is the town you get to if you go counterclockwise from Hardenburgh along the border of Ulster County.  If I were giving you directions to the trailheads of the other four towers, I'd have you get off the Thruway in Kingston and start taking State Route 28 west, and only have to give you two or three more turns to get to the trailheads, even if some of those turns are 30 miles away.   Not so with Red Hill, and I found myself going around in circles trying to get to the trailhead.  It doesn't help that there's a T-junction with three roads called "Red Hill Road", "Red Hill Knolls", and "New Road Hill":

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And the trailhead isn't available in Google Street View: one trailhead is on a gravel road that the Google cars haven't been on, while the other road hasn't been traversed since 2012, before the parking was built in.

Anyhow, I got to the trailhead on Denning Road at about 7:35 AM.  It's not a long trail, about 1.5 miles to the junction with the other trail, and 700 feet of vertical gain, so just under 10%.  Then there's another 0.6 miles to the top, with about 450 feet of vertical, so a rather steeper portion to finish things off.  But my first picture of the fire tower has a time stamp of 8:35 AM.

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I didn't expect the cab to be open, but I was able to climb to the highest landing below the cab and get a few pictures:

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Supposedly you can see the Rondout Reservoir, one of several that provides water for New York city, from the cab; I think the administrative buildings for the reservoir might be just above the treeline in the second photo, but I'm not certain, and didn't take notes of what direction I was shooting.    The cabin for the rangers is still up there, and that picture came out rather better:

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I took the scenic route back, taking one of the two north-south roads through the Catskills in Ulster County.  even though weather conditions were overcast, it was loaded with hikers climbing up the mountains that don't have views at the top.

Oh, and for those who want the obligatory selfie:

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Funny you should mention Balsam Lake, since I was just about to post about that one today -- I'd put it third best of the climbs up to the fire towers.

I mentioned Route 28 a few posts back.  Not long after you get onto it from the Thruway, there's a sign mentioning: Woodstock, 8 miles; Phoenicia (which is roughly where Tremper Mtn. is) 23; and Pine Hill, 34 miles.  You have to stay on 28 all the way to Pine Hill before turning off, and if you miss the turn, you'll immediately be in Delaware County.  But once you get off 28 it's only two more turns, and there are even signs leading to the Mill Brook Road trailhead of the Dry Brook Ridge trail -- at least the one I took, since there are three with the other two being even more in the middle of nowhere.

The hike up to the fire tower isn't bad at all, since the trailhead is at almost 2600 feet.  The trail you start on is technically a through trail to another of the trailheads, and you follow it for about 2-1/4 miles until you get to a fork in the road.  Up to here, you've gained a little over 700 feet in elevation, so a 6-7% gain.  If you take the fork to the right, you've got the easier time up the hill, although I was planning on doing a "lollipop", going right (counterclockwise) to the top of the mountain, and then going back down to the Dry Brook Ridge trail and following that out to my car.  From the fork up to the top of the mountain is about 3/4 mile, with 400 feet of gain, so about 10%.  Most of that gain comes in a few steep sections, and the cabin for the fire rangers comes at you quickly:

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Look carefully and the path turns to the left, leading you to the fire tower:

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I was sad to see that the cab is only open from 10-4 on weekends from Memorial Day to Columbus Day, and even sadder when I got to the registration box back at the bottom and saw that somebody had signed in as the person responsible for opening the cab.  I got to the top a little after 8:20 AM, spent a half hour on top of the mountain, and didn't see anybody until I started going back down the mountain.  I got as high as the second-to-last landing.  I didn't want to go to the last landing because I'd be facing east again to take pictures, and that would be into the sun.  And I felt I'd gotten a reasonably good picture to the east:

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As you can see, there's a lot of mountain wilderness to the east.  The west I think gives you a view of the upper reaches of the Delaware River:

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Unfortunately, in going counterclockwise, I was going down the trail that's steeper and rockier, since I'm paranoid about slipping and falling.  It's 0.9 miles down to the junction, and about 850 feet of drop, so a good 18%.    Worse, it meant that to get back to the end of the loop on the lollipop stick, so to speak, I had to go uphill for another mile.  Not a particularly steep uphill, mind you, but it was definitely uphill.  On the way down I met I think four hiking parties, one doing a lollipop from the opposite end of the Dry Brook Ridge from me, since we ran into each other again at the fork, and a second pair who started at the same end as I did and whom I was stunned to run into again on the way down.  There were several more people going up the trail while I was on my way down: when I parked at the trailhead a bit after 7:00 I was the third car in; when I got to the bottom at about 11:00 I think I counted 18 cars in a full lot.

As for the obligatory selfie:

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@Jelly posted:

D85A325B-C94B-4971-98AC-943EB9778791Hey Fedya. I'm currently in the process of hitting all 33 peaks above 3500. Only have eight more to go. I might hit balsam lake tower 10/28. Hit me up if you want to go.

Nice picture of you.  I see you're not doing a close-up to give BK a new avatar, though. 

Does all of the 3500' peaks include Graham and Doubletop?  A sign at the Dry Brook trailhead said they're closed off (I don't think the peaks are on state land):

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As for hiking up Balsam Lake again this season, I'm not so sure.  It would be highly weather-dependent, as I'm really an amateur hiker and not set up for hiking in anything approaching winter conditions should the weather on the mountain means there's any ice.  I sort of inherited Dad's snowshoes after Mom died, but the original poles wouldn't fit in the car and the cheap retractable set I bought off Amazon had one that wouldn't keep the length you set it at.  I don't even know if the original poles survived our move this past spring.  (Dad and I are technically just outside Catskill Park now.)

I actually did a hike to Echo Lake and Overlook Mountain a few years back on April 15 and there was still small patches of the sort of thin ice you'd break up on the north side of the mountain that doesn't get much sun.

Frankly, what I'd really be curious to do, although it would have to wait until next summer when the weather is fine, would be a through hike from the Dry Brook trail to Alder Lake.  But I'm sure you know those trailheads are ridiculously far apart since there aren't any through roads in Hardenburgh, and the shortest in terms of distance route goes over what looks like a couple of miles of unpaved road.  (Google Street View doesn't have any photos of that road, and the most recent Street View pictures from Hardenburgh in general are at least 10 years old.    I don't feel like having another adventure like the one I had in Denning when the days are that much shorter and colder. 

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You're right. Two peaks are now on private property so the number of accessible peaks is 33. Graham and Double Top are on private property. Balsam Lake peak is considered one of the easiest of all the peaks and has the best view. I've been up Overlook but not Tremper. I heard Tremper tower is easy to access? Was saving the hike for the wife. Did you know upper esopus tower was relocated from Florida?  I'm sure you've listened to the Catskill Fire Tower podcasts.

As long as the weather corporates, we will be doing SugarBush/Twin mountain peak or Balsalm Lake Tower on 10/28. It's the absolute best time to hike the Catskills imo. Not too hot, not too cold and the views are spectacular.

Here's a pic of my son and I on Black Dome one year ago today.

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Last edited by Jelly

The trailheads for Tremper are easy enough to get to, especially the south one on  County Rte 40.  The only issue I had was that the trail is probably the least easy of the five -- I say "least easy" because if go up mountains like Black Dome you're a much more experienced hiker than I am!    (Having to get back down from doing scrambling gets me nervous.)  And the view, especially if the cab isn't open, is likely to be the worst because the tower is right up against the trees unlike other four.  As I mentioned at the start of the thread, I'm rating the hikes based on the ratio of work to reward at the top of the mountain.

The south side of Overlook is probably the easiest of the five, but also the most boring since most of it is like a long, long gravel driveway.  It's also likely to be obscenely crowded.  But I think the view there and on Hunter Mountain is even better than Balsam Lake.  At this time of the year, however, I bet there would be rather more solitude on Balsam Lake.

Overlook is the only one where I don't feel like I have to look down at my feet to keep from tripping, while Tremper was the most in that regard.  Balsam Lake, if you just do an in and out instead of the lollipop, only has a few sections near the top with roots and such.  When I climbed Hunter a few weeks back, I did a loop because I wanted to get to the Diamond Notch waterfall.  That loop took my down two miles of the Devil's Path, and once it started going downhill, I really had to watch my footing! 

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Part of the Devil's Path down from Hunter Mtn. involves crossing a creek that the boulder at the bottom of the photo is in the middle of. 

In short, for anybody like BK calling us fire tower nerds , I'd probably suggest starting with Overlook.  But for reasons I'll get more into when I organize my photos and do the posts here, I actually prefer Hunter.

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#2: Overlook Mountain

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I didn't realize that I don't have any good photos of just the fire tower, despite the number of times I've climbed Overlook, so you get this 2015 selfie instead.  Overlook is probably the easiest of the five climbs, at least if you do the south side.  It's easy to get to and you can go through Woodstock, which is a nice enough place to spend a few hours but an overpriced tourist trap after that much time.  And if you want to do the north side from the start of the Devil's Path, you can drive up beautiful Platte Clove Road, at least from mid-April through October 31.  Don't try it during the winter because the road is closed and gated shut.  Don't be that idiot.

If you do do the south side, get there early.  The last time I climbed it was two weeks before Labor Day, getting to the trailhead at 6:18 AM.  There were two cars with overnights in the parking lot, and two more that pulled in just before me.  When I got back to the trailhead just before 11:00 AM, the lot was full.  There's an auxiliary parking lot a half mile downhill, and the portion of the road that allows parking on the shoulder was full up.

The south side is, according to the signs, 2.5 miles with about 1400 feet of vertical gain, so just under 11%.  But most of that is like a gravel driveway since there's a communications town a half mile below the summit.  Indeed, on the summit you can look through the fire tower and see the top of the communications tower, which is a bit disconcerting if you have any sort of fear of heights:

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The cab has never been open any of the times I've been to the fire tower, but you can still get reasonable views from lower reached of the tower since Overlook is the only bald of the five fire tower summits:

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The mountain is called Overlook, however, and there's a short path down to the actual overlook, which looks east over the Hudson:

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And then there are the extracurriculars.  If you're coming from the south side, so can add about another two miles down the north side of the mountain to get to Echo Lake, with the actual trail to the lake from the main trail being the most difficult part of the day, a rocky two-thirds of a mile and 450 vertical feet down to the lake, so somewhere between 13-14%.  But it's worth it when the weather is good:

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You'll also note on the way up, just before you get to the communications tower, the ruins of the Overlook Mountain House.  Back in the 1920s, somebody came up with the idea to put a resort hotel just off the top of the mountain.  But then the Depression came, followed by World War II, and at the end all that was left was the stone frame.  Enter at your own risk; signs claim there are a subspecies of rattlesnakes on Overlook:

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So why did I put Overlook only at #2?  Well, if you take the north side, it's 10-11 miles without doing Echo Lake, and the last bit of the Devil's Path is undulating and rocky and full of tree roots, which isn't bad going up but a killer after having put those 10 miles on your legs.  If you do the south side, it's an hour or so (I usually budget 1:10, but this past August I did it in 58 minutes), but way overcrowded if you're not there first thing in the morning and the weather is OK.  For the heck of it, I decided I'd count how many hiking parties I'd come across on the way down, and stopped when I got to about two dozen.  I might have passed 10 on Balsam Lake, which was the Saturday of Labor Day weekend, and maybe 10 on Hunter Mountain (a Sunday in August).  The south side of Overlook has been crowded even when I've done it in the beginning of the season in April and the end right at the beginning of November.

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And finally, we get to what is marginally my favorite of the five, and the fire tower in my current avatar: Hunter Mountain.

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If you open a mapping app on your phone or tablet to the Catskills, as you zoom in you'll eventually see NYS-28 going east/west through Ulster County south of the northern Catskills and the Devil's Path, and in Greene County NYS-23A, a nice drive I mentioned earlier.  Connecting the two through the middle (and crossing the Devil's Path) is NYS-214, and on the west side is NYS-42.  It's only when you zoom in more that you'll finally see a long dead-end road off of Rte. 42 called Spruceton Road.

If you do a search on Hunter Mountain, you'll get links to the ski area on the lower slopes of the northern side of the mountain.  You'll have to add the fire tower to your search to get more info on the trails, where you'll find that there are shorter trails from Rte. 214, specifically the Becker Hollow Trail.  You might look at that and think, only 2.1 miles to the top of the mountain?  Cool!  The only thing is, that 2.1 miles is about 2200 feet of vertical gain.    And, the first half-mile isn't that difficult, only climbing about 200 feet, so you've got about 200 feet of gain in 1.6 miles, for a vertiginous 22%.  And there are times where it's much steeper than that.  Also, the trail is along the side of the mountain, like it looks like you'll fall a lot if you have an unfortunate accident.  It's also got a ton of rocks and tree roots that you'll have to scramble over, and then scramble back down.  Eventually you get to a sign informing you you're at 3500 feet, which is there only because there are extra rules on camping in the Catskills above 3500 feet.  More importantly, it informs you you've got another 500 feet of vertical gain in maybe half a mile.  And as you look up from that sign, you'll see that the trail only gets steeper.    (Of course, if you're someone like @Jelly), you probably think it's easy....

So it's better to suck up the long drive to Spruceton Road and then all the way to the parking area for the Spruceton Horse Trail.  Along the way, you'll pass the western end of the Devil's Path, which would take you up West Kill Mountain before meeting up with the loop I did.  The Devil's Path itself doesn't go to the top of Hunter, but there is a 1.7 mile connector trail between the two.  Anyhow, the Spruceton Horse trail is 3.5 miles, with a little over 1900 feet of gain, so a little over 10% on average.  But the trail doesn't do average.  The first half, up to a hitching post -- remember, this was a horse trail at one time, is easy, with a bit over 800 feet of gain, so about 9%.  At the hitching post, you take a sharp right, and the trail immediately gets steep for the next 3/4 of a mile.  But at that point, there's a junction with a trail down to the ski area.  Another 700 feet, so 18% or so.  But the top of the mountain is surprisingly flat; the last mile only has about 400 feet of gain.

I was at the top of the mountain on a Sunday in August, and was lucky to find the cab open.  Unfortunately, I didn't realize until after I got back down the mountain that the views I took weren't from the cab, but from a bit below.  There's a map showing what mountain are in what direction that I took a picture of, as well as taking a selfie in the cab:

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  First the ski area:

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And what might be my favorite photo from all the hikes I did this year, looking back over the cabin:

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Unfortunately, I didn't think to note what direction all of my photos were facing.  This is partway up the tower, facing I think east of north, so that might be Windham and/or Black Dome in the distance:

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I thought about doing the loop in August, but I wasn't 100% certain I was taking the right trail and didn't feel like climbing back up if anything went wrong.  There was also a lean-to I'd missed that supposedly had nice views, so I decided I'd hit that on the way down.  Sadly, the view south wasn't as nice as advertised, leading me to decide to climb the mountain again at the end of September.  Unsurprisingly, the cab wasn't open, but I hoped to get close to the top to take some good pictures.  Sadly, the day was overcast and surprisingly cool, about 33 at the trailhead at 7AM.  And as I started climbing the tower, it got really windy thanks to the lack of protection from the trees.  So I only climbed up high enough to get a few more pictures before heading down to do the loop:

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Part of the reason I wanted to do the loop was to see Diamond Notch Falls, a waterfall that probably photographs best if you actually go into the West Kill creek.  The trail down is part of the Devil's Path, not too difficult at first.  There's a lean-to (different from the one in August) at about 3600', 1.7 miles from the fire tower.  And then the trail meanders between 3500 and 3600 for a good half mile, before it starts going down, almost as rocky as Becker Hollow (it's all those rocks and scrambles that gave the Devil's Path its name).  It's something like 1200 feet of descent in 1.5 miles before you get to the falls:

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From there, it's about 0.8 miles to the road, another quarter mile to a parking area for those looking to go to the waterfall and up the Devil's Path, and then one more quarter mile to the Horse Trail.  Even though I'd already put eight more miles on my legs, that last mile was easy because it's mostly flat and there's only one house in that last half mile so no traffic.

Since you want selfies, I'll close with the most artistic one of the season:

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So why do I put Hunter ahead of Overlook?  Well, I think that's a bit subjective.  While Overlook as the Mountain House ruins along the way, Hunter has a nice creek on the Horse Trail, as well as being more interesting in general than the gravel road up Overlook.  It's also less-trafficked; when I did it on a Sunday in August I think I passed maybe 10 hiking parties on the way down the mountain.  In September, and on a Thursday, I only saw that one group at the Devil's Path lean-to.  I've done Overlook on the first Monday in November and on April 15, and both days still had a surprising number of people climbing up as I was making my way down.  I love the solitude.  Overlook, on the other hand, has the advantage of more privies, with the only on I could find on Hunter being at the Devil's Path lean-to.

In short, if you haven't done this sort of hiking before, I'd probably recommend doing Overlook first to see if its your thing, because it is a bit easier and for most people the trailhead is probably a bit closer.  Also, with Overlook being a bald, you don't have to climb very far up the fire tower to get a reasonable view, which is a plus if you've got any sort of fear of heights and/or the cab is closed.  But for anyone into hiking and fitter than I am (OK, that last bit isn't saying much ), Hunter is gorgeous.  Just hope for nice sunny weather for the best photos.

We had some wet snow Tuesday evening, and it all melted by Wednesday noon, but in any case no more trips to the mountains until spring.  Low 20s here tomorrow morning; I can only imagine what it would be like at the trailheads much less another thousand feet up.

Thankfully, there's another fire tower not exactly in the Catskills, but easy to get to, in the Ferncliff Forest not far from the Kingston-Rhinecliff bridge over the Hudson.  So last week I went to get a few photos:

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Unfortunately, being mid-November the lighting conditions weren't the best, and I sure didn't get to dawdle and spend as much time in the tower (open, and with no windows!) as I would have liked.  Indeed, a couple of college kids showed up a few minutes after I got in the cab, and while the rules say a maximum of six people on the tower at any one time, trying to fit more than three in the cab would be a tight fit.

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Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

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@Jelly was asking me about it in another thread, and I've been meaning to mention that I finally finished up the Fire Tower Challenge for this year a couple of weeks back.  Not too many pictures this time since most of the worthwhile pictures were already posted last year, but I've got a few more fun stories.  And in between, I climbed a couple more mountains and have good pictures of those to share.

This year, I'll go in chronological order of what I climbed.  First up is Balsam Lake, which I did twice.  I was planning to do it the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend so I'd have two days to recover, but I had to work a half day that Saturday so did it Sunday.  As I made the last turn, onto Mill Brook road, I saw something crossing the road, and it was... a bear!  Thankfully, I have yet to see them on the actual hikes.  I get to the trailhead at about 7:20 and at the registration saw a steward was there... on Saturday.  I took the long way around since I knew if there was going to be a steward, the cab isn't "officially" opened until 10.  I still got to the top of the mountain around 9:20 and had to cool my heels for 40 minutes to see if a steward would show up.  I don't think the college kids who showed up 20 minutes later were pleased with my loitering.  In any case no steward showed up to unlock the cab.

So I made a point to do the trail again later in the season, picking the Sunday of Labor Day weekend since weather didn't cooperate Saturday.  This time the plan was a quick in-and-out so I got to the trailhead about 8:50 and was the first one in, although a father and son who had the bad fashion sense to wear Jets gear pulled in right behind me.  I made great time, but no steward.

I mentioned last year that I thought you might be able to see the Delaware River from the fire tower:

Those, however, are just clouds that haven't burned off yet, as I saw when I got to the top of the tower in May:

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Last edited by Fedya

The second fire tower I hit this year was Hunter, which I also did twice, and this is where I start to get some fun stories.  My original plan was to do it on my birthday (Flag Day), but unfortunately the weather forecast made it look like I might hit some showers that Friday, so I put it off until Saturday when the weather forecast was supposed to be for brilliant sun.  Indeed, as I was driving to the trailhead on the Spruceton Road which heads east, I had to put down the sun visor since the sun was so bright even at 6:30 AM.  The hike up was reasonably nice, except that as I got above 3700' or so there seemed to be rather less sunlight.  And when I hit the top of the mountain around 8:10, I was greeted by 50 degree weather and enough mist that you could literally see it moving through the trees!    No good pictures right then.  Compare the first photo with one from a sunny day last September, taken in roughly the same direction (note the platform on the ground):

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Worse, since I was celebrating my birthday, I had bought some chocolate cake and planned to celebrate in part by getting a selfie with the piece of cake at the top of the mountain.  I pulled the cake out to find that it was edible but not photogenic, looking like mush! 

I had to wait close to 40 minutes for the clouds to lift before I got some better pictures.

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Part of the reason for doing the hike again was not just to do the whole fire tower challenge, but to try to get better pictures of Diamond Notch Falls (aka Buttermilk Falls).  This time, I went down the steep embankment and onto some rocks to get photos from a better angle:

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It was a bit tough to get really good pictures as this is a popular place to visit, and at 11:00 AM on a summer Saturday, it's really popular, with the two car parks almost packed.  Driving back on Spruceton Road, there's another trailhead for the start of the Devil's Path, and that one was not only full, but had a substantial number of cars parked on the side of the road.

And for the obligatory selfie, with a bit of cake:

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My second trip up Hunter was just yesterday, which is why I delayed posting about Hunter.  I was hoping I could get some pictures of fall foliage, uncertain of whether the higher elevations had hit peak yet.  Set out from home in the dark, but got to the trailhead just past 7AM.  Made surprisingly good time up the mountain, getting to the peak in just 86 minutes.  I guess trying to get into some semblance of shape beyond round is beginning to pay dividends.   I was the first car in the lot at the trailhead, and was a bit surprised to see what looked like a human form on the fire tower when I got to the top.  Of course, it wasn't a steward, but a hiker who climbed up the much more difficult east side of the mountain.

There were some signs of the foliage and perhaps even past peak on the mountain tops, but I think I was too far away to do justice to the changing colors.  First up is roughly the same angle toward the west that I raved about last year, as you can see from the tower; following that is a picture to the north:

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There was rather more color on the way down.  There's a lookout point on the Devil's Path that looks toward the south, from which I got this photo:

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I got down to the waterfall a few minutes after 11, and this being the first Friday in October, nobody was there... yet.  Thankfully, this allowed me to get photos from several angles with nobody in them, and even to eat lunch in peace.


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The first picture is looking upstream from the bridge from the south side; the second is looking downstream from the same spot -- the waterfall is at the end of those rocks.  And the third is roughly from the same vantage point as the one in June, albeit with a bit of fall color.

I climbed back up to the trail, which has a mile to go on gravel and then half a mile on paved roads.  It wasn't long until I started to run into walkers looking to get to the waterfall.  Lots and lots of walkers.  By the time I got to the first parking lot, it was full up, with a couple of carloads of people just having gotten out of their cars and not started the hike yet.  And as I was walking back to my car, I had two or three cars pass me, only to pass me again in the opposite direction when they found out that lot was full.    The joys of getting an early start and having the place pretty much all to oneself cannot be overstated.

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Last edited by Fedya

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