The smoking gun
YATittle posted:Nice to watch the Panthers D with two excellent ILBs....
CAR has 3 first round picks at LB, no?
Several sources is probably several people at Curly's Pub (or whatever it's called now) that heard McCarthy say he wishes he could have had Vernon Davis.
I totally get not thinking that TT should completely abandon his philosophy, and honestly don't see anyone saying that. But the defensiveness of some people that won't allow any questioning of the status quo is baffling to me.
Frankly everyone at 1265 should be frustrated. There are talent and coaching deficiencies at key areas, and this team has exited the playoffs in epic and bitter fashion several times as of late. We are lucky and we are a solid franchise and yes boy it's way better than being a Browns fan, but any organization that gets set in their ways eventually gets stale and less successful. That's not over the top criticism. That's reality.
So what if McGinn is 100% correct. What if MM does want TT to add some talent from the outside that wasn't drafted? Wouldn't you think it obvious the head coach would want as much talent on the field as possible? I'd think he'd be crazy not to be. Head coaches think short term GM's get to think long term. It's not a personal indictment on TT. It's not a personal indictment on those that support TT. Successful organizations whether it's in sports or business adjust, alter, and change their strategies to the situation and the environment all the time. You can do that without abandoning your overarching principles.
I just don't understand the people acting like it's a personal assault to suggest that the Green Bay Packers might be frustrated and they should explore all avenues to improving the on field product.
Grave Digger posted:Several sources is probably several people at Curly's Pub (or whatever it's called now) that heard McCarthy say he wishes he could have had Vernon Davis.
If MM demanded more than the Perillo/Backman combo once Quarless went down, he is just getting uppity.
I'll say this. It's night and day looking at the ILB play of these SB teams compared to what we have. Even with Sam Barrington healthy and back, lining him and Jake Ryan or Nate Palmer is a far cry from Luke and Brandon Marshall or even Trevathan. Makes a big difference on D. And if that's a source of frustration for MM, I can understand that.
GBP1 posted:ChilliJon posted:
What is this thing?
Looks like a red panda which a cousin of the raccoon.
CAPackFan95 posted:I totally get not thinking that TT should completely abandon his philosophy, and honestly don't see anyone saying that. But the defensiveness of some people that won't allow any questioning of the status quo is baffling to me.
.
Word brother. I find it baffling as well. It's like the deniers over Phat Eddie. He got FAT. Get over it. This wasn't some mass conspiracy to piss all over what Lacy did in his first 2 years. He was a great back his first 2 seasons. But the reality is he came into camp in bad shape, then proceeded to get even fatter as the season went on. 99.9 percent of us are supporting him going into 2016 and we're hoping he looks fit and his mind is right going into his final contract year.
This team has warts. And that includes TT's approach to UFA and MM's stubbornness, hoarding asst coaches, and positions on this team that need definite upgrading. If MM is frustrated that TT won't make certain moves, I get that. It's a valid gripe he has.
I'd sooner have TT, Rodgers, MM or whoever air out their frustrations, be blunt, and say what's on their minds. And if Bad Bob gets wind of it and reports it, so be it. At least we know these guys give a shiit and want changes.
Hungry5 posted:Interesting wording from McGinn on this "sources" comment.
According to several sources, McCarthy is fed up with his boss' unwillingness to take a chance and reinforce the roster with veteran players that might be unknown to the Packers but have the talent to contribute.
It's not as if those players are unknown to TT and the Packers, anyway.
CAPackFan95 posted:Frankly everyone at 1265 should be frustrated.
What makes you think they aren't?
I kinda like the idea that there is tension. As the GM, TT needs to look to the future. As the head coach, MM needs to look at the present. That creates balance. I'm guessing MM hasn't been too vocal in personnel moves so maybe this will push TT to use free agency a little more than he used to. IMO, free agency has changed a bit, where the inefficiencies are limited to the top, the Suh's, Haynesworth's, Wallace's, etc. Ignore those guys, and you can find a ton of value. Just look at Denver's defense; Stewart, Ward, Ware and Talib were all free agents and are just killing it in Denver right now. Don't need to go overboard, but teams are having significant success in free agency and it's time TT realizes that.
I really hope we finally see a change in TT's offseason approach after what we witnessed this year. We all know the draft is a crap shoot so not surprising that TT has his misses. But if you don't supplement those misses via free agency, you're stuck your best defender out of position (CMIII), no depth at OT, no capable starters at ILB and TE, and youngsters that aren't ready to start at WR (Adams, Janis and Abbrederis). I'll give him a pass at WR but the others could have been solved last offseason with some spending.
FinnLander posted:CAPackFan95 posted:Frankly everyone at 1265 should be frustrated.
What makes you think they aren't?
Didn't see that implied or stated in CAPF95's post.
Losing the way they did last year @SEA and then to fight the way they did to get as far as they did only to lose again, I can understand the frustration. I doubt it is some sort of irreparable schism though.
packerboi posted:I'll say this. It's night and day looking at the ILB play of these SB teams compared to what we have. Even with Sam Barrington healthy and back, lining him and Jake Ryan or Nate Palmer is a far cry from Luke and Brandon Marshall or even Trevathan. Makes a big difference on D. And if that's a source of frustration for MM, I can understand that.
How long have you guys felt there were major problems at ILB? We've all felt it for some time now, back to 2011 probably. In that time TT has not addressed ILB with any high draft choices nor with Free Agency. He's addressed other parts of the defense with high draft picks quite effectively.
I am not a go hog wild on free agency kind of guy (even if my local team, Denver, did build the best defense in the NFL with some big name but very key FA moves) but is it any coincidence that the best defenses the Packers have had in the past 10 years have come after Charles Woodson and Julius Peppers were obtained?
Draft and develop is great. FA is there for when a draft choice bombs out. The Packers have not yet recovered from the 2011 and 2012 draft classes.
I'd guess that at some point over the past 10 years (likely in the interview) McCarthy was 100% bought into the D&D method. That seems to be a given to me or he would not have stayed as long. That said, D&D only works if he and his staff are developing what Thompson drafts. Getting overly vocal about changing/modifying from D&D would to some extent be admitting limitations in the coaching staff.
Hungry5 posted:Getting overly vocal about changing/modifying from D&D would to some extent be admitting limitations in the coaching staff.
Or that the drafts haven't been good enough.
FinnLander posted:What makes you think they aren't?
I hope they are. I think they are. I was more commenting on the fact that many area bashing McGinn or others highlighting it and calling it poop stirring as if there is no possible way there could be any frustration...
cuqui posted:Hungry5 posted:Getting overly vocal about changing/modifying from D&D would to some extent be admitting limitations in the coaching staff.
Or that the drafts haven't been good enough.
I considered that, but the McGinn article and all the comments here and on the radidio about McCarthy being fed up seem to point to FA and not draft choices.
It's hard to argue against Thompson's drafting acumen, he is one of the best at finding talent. However, talent isn't always enough which is why adding a FA here or there can be beneficial. Too often we hear about communication being at the crux of the failings. Youthful talent, but not NFL ready/smart for Dom's complex D or McCarthy's multiples offense?
If McCarthy was asking for FA help in week 9 or so and didn't get it, he should be pissed or fed up. But saying that only now is somewhat of a hindsight is 20-20 kind of thing.
Again, I think there is something to this, just don't think it is as big as many are trying to make of it.
Pointing fingers at Linebacker issues when our unstoppable offense finished in the crapper is called covering your a$$. MM and his staff failed on offense. They know it. TT knows it. A-Rod knows it. Clement may not know it.
The offense is why we all watched teams we don't like or went to any function our spouse desired without objection, well at least public objection-----okay pouting (internally).
The coaching staff is definitely a big part of the problem.
We have had the players to win both the NFCC game in Seattle and the last game in AZ, not to mention a few more games during this season.
Not using Janis enough during the year.
And 50 drunks in a bar would all agree that Tretter is our best bet to backup all 5 OL positions yet it takes MM three games and eleventy billion hits on his HOF QB to figure it out.
There were some good TT drafted players on the bench this season while the team lost games they didn't need to.
The last time someone wanted to call roster moves the train departed without him. All ABOARD! Or not MM.
How long have you guys felt there were major problems at ILB? We've all felt it for some time now, back to 2011 probably. In that time TT has not addressed ILB with any high draft choices nor with Free Agency. He's addressed other parts of the defense with high draft picks quite effectively.
You can add TE as well. There hasn't been anyone remotely close to the talent level and pure athleticism of Finley since he went down. To me it's one of 2 things. Either in TT's mind, he feels he's drafted enough athletic players and MM's staff isn't getting the job done in the development stage OR the Dick Rods, Quarless, Perillo, Palmer, Ryan, Barringtons, just aren't good enough athletes.
The firing of Jerry F at TE coach leads me to think they expected much more out of Dick Rod but as others have said, I don't know how you teach speed. At ILB even going back to the Frank Zombos, Brad Jones, etc the talent and speed just hasn't been there. For years.
Add to that, aside from Peppers and CMIII who are just good players period, Winston Moss hasn't had a position player under him seriously over perform or play out of his mind. He's required top draft picks (CMIII, Peppers, Perry, Jones or Neal) to get a decent level of play.
There are some quality ILB's that will become available in 2016. Same with TE. TT could himself a big favor by signing these positions to proven players who he already knows they will be INSTANT contributors
I'm sure there's all sorts of frustration within the organization as there should be with a very disappointing season. It likely runs both ways with TT probably frustrated with how the players that were there were used. Hard for me to believe TT was particularly impressed with the coaching job MM did this year.
When MM said Clay is going back outside that was a subtle shot at TT for forcing the team to take talent to plug a hole elsewhere. He's telling TT he's not doing it again and if everyone wants to sit back and see how the Ryan / Barrington tag team does in the middle in 2016 than that's how it's playing out.
After watching NE-Denver yesterday. I'd go get Trevathan and draft Hunter Henry in round 1. Yes, I'm fully aware that Henry at the end of round 1 is a reach but IMO that's the fastest way to upgrade the skill and speed at two glaring holes as quickly as possible. Let Barrington and Ryan fight it out for a spot next to Trevathan.
TT lasted 10 seasons and 146 games in the NFL with the same team and only started 9. His reluctance to sign free agents is likely related to his own experience. I can imagine how a player like TT would have felt after working his ass off for years in the same system and then instead of getting a chance to finally play a larger role, the team goes and signs a veteran guy from another team to play instead. He wants to reward guys that put in their dues like he did. He values loyalty and hard work from his own draft choices and street free agents. A lot of times it works out, but I think it has hampered their ability to put together the best team on a year to year basis.
Well, TT also needs to realize keeping his roster something like 85% "home grown" isn't always the best idea either. This team also lacks vocal leaders like Reggie White, Charles Woodson, Donald Driver, and at times Favre. Usually, I'm not always a ra-ra proponent but there were times this season this team just looked flat, even disinterested. A quality FA who also gets players riled up or lights a fire under their ass may be what this team needs as well.
RatPack posted:The last time someone wanted to call roster moves the train departed without him. All ABOARD! Or not MM.
Of course, that also lead to the Packers wasting a year of Favre's prime with Ray Rhodes and then hiring a decent coach in Mike Sherman whose biggest weakness as a coach was that he had virtually no control over Favre.
It's also TTs job to work with MM and balance the sense of urgency to win during that year with the long term outlook. TT is looking to make sure they have the best chance to win over the next 5 years, but this does hurt them on a year by year basis.
The Haynesworth, Suh, etc. type contracts are just poor decisions made by GMs that are trying to take shortcuts, but the mid-level free agents can go a long way towards getting you over the hump in a given year. We've virtually ignored that approach for a decade to keep playing TTs draft picks and free agents either in the hope they will develop or improve.
Did staying with AJ Hawk and Brad Jones for about 3 seasons too long cost us? Did relying on Andrew Quarless and Richard Rodgers come back to bite us?
I'd say yes to both those questions. You didn't need to sign a Suh-level player to significantly upgrade those positions.
So I'm guessing Julius Peppers doesn't really play for the Packers.
Well, at least McGinn throwing this little nugget into his year-end wrap up gives the internet a new angle to the same offseason discussion we've been having for nearly 10 years now.
There are some who would claim he didn't this year. He didn't have any pick-6's from the OLB this year so he's got nothing left.
GBFanForLife posted:So I'm guessing Julius Peppers doesn't really play for the Packers.
Woodson and Peppers were great signings, but I think a lot of us would hope he'd take a few more shots with some mid-level guys. Take TE, guys like Owen Daniels (3 million guaranteed), Jermaine Gresham (1.5 million), and Scott Chandler (2 million) all changes teams this past year. While their statistics didn't light the world on fire in all cases, we literally only had two serviceable TEs entering training camp, and Quarless was a suspension risk. Rather than bring in a veteran guy, we decided to try to be successful with a rookie 6th round pick (Backman) and an UDFA (Perillo). Even if you signed the Gresham and Chandler types and they look awful in camp, you can cut them without crippling your salary cap into the future.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/fre...ents/2015/tight-end/
@thekapman: Mike Holmgren on Mike McCarthy wanting to add free agents "I don't think there's conflict. Mike wants more? Ted Thompson will give him more."
Would be an interesting meeting...
McCarthy: Hey Ted, why don't you get me some better players? I'm fed up.
Thompson: Um Mike, why did it take 11 games for you to realize that inside linebacker Nate Palmer couldn't play and that Jake Ryan was the better option? And what about playing Barclay and Walker when Tretter is sitting there?
McCarthy: Tretter was playing Center, dumbass.
Hungry5 posted:I'd guess that at some point over the past 10 years (likely in the interview) McCarthy was 100% bought into the D&D method. That seems to be a given to me or he would not have stayed as long. That said, D&D only works if he and his staff are developing what Thompson drafts. Getting overly vocal about changing/modifying from D&D would to some extent be admitting limitations in the coaching staff.
Or limitations in talent evaluation.
FreeSafety posted:Not using Janis enough during the year.
And 50 drunks in a bar would all agree that Tretter is our best bet to backup all 5 OL positions yet it takes MM three games and eleventy billion hits on his HOF QB to figure it out.
There were some good TT drafted players on the bench this season while the team lost games they didn't need to.
I think most of us cannot understand why the staff couldn't find some way(s) to get Janis on the field more. This staff is stubborn to make changes.
Tretter may be our best backup, but this was a sore spot LAST year as Barclay was horrible in 2014. Apparently they felt his injury the year before was to blame and they gave him a bye. But to not have another option besides Barclay in 2014 was ridiculous. Again, the staff is stubborn to make changes.
Everyone was worried about Hawk & Jones as starters BEFORE the 2013 season, but we were stuck with them thru that entire season as well as parts of 2014. Why did it take that damn long to address an obvious weakness?
Same can be said for safety. I loved the Ha Ha pick, but it was LONG overdue. M.D. Jennings was our scheduled starter? Seriously?
TE has been a weakness for how long? They keep trotting these bottom of the draft feeders out there hoping one will be a gem and develop. Well, it ain't happening.
I realize everybody is an expert GM sitting at home on the couch, but some of these changes needed to be made WAAAY before TT addressed them. What the heck takes them so long to pull the trigger?
Gronkowski was a 6th round pick
Gates was a free agent.
Now Ted will mess with all our heads and go sign Von Miller this offseason.
I think the reason Gronk was taken so low was because he only played his Fr. and So. years at Arizona. He completely missed what would have been his Jr. season in 2009 after undergoing back surgery and then he declared for the draft early. Not being selected until the 6th round was more than likely because of teams worried about his health issues.