The futility from three in Games 6 and 7 is historic.
11 for 62 from three. Most of them were not tightly contested shots.
Giannis was actually 3 for 7 from three in those two games.
Portis was 2 for 6
Everyone else, was 6 for 49.
Holiday 3 for 16
Connaughton 2 for 8
Lopez 1 for 8
Matthews 0 for 5
G. Allen 0 for 8
@lambeausouth posted:Brook Lopez, Jrue Holiday, Wesley Matthews, Grayson Allen and Pat Connaughton are a combined 1 for 24 from 3-pt range.
Let that sink in.
Playing with one of the best paint players in NBA history. There were a lot of good looks.
@Boris posted:I bet Boston 🤷♂️🫢 Does that make me Eeyore?
Before or after you knew Middleton was out for the series?
Game 6 and 7
Celtics were 39 for 98 from three
Bucks were 11 for 66.
Outscored by 84 points from three.
The good news is I didn’t watch the game and now have even less reason to do so. Was at daughters softball practice.
4-33 from 3. That’s got to be a playoff record.
In retrospect, as bad as they shot from 3 in this series it’s pretty incredible they even made it this far.
I’ll say this though - Grayson Allen should walk home. George Hill can join him. Just pathetic play in this series from both of those two. Portis and Lopez had their moments, but they did nothing in several games.
Grant fucking Williams had 27 today.
Oh well, was a good year but in the end the loss of Middleton was too much to overcome. Not sure why Bud didn’t even try Ibaka or Jevon Carter. He needs to answer for that.
One final point - Boston will get credit for playing good defense, but a lot of Bucks misses were not contested shots.
F art
I n
T he
W ind
NOW the season is over. 😀
How is it a fart in the wind? If you really think that you don’t know the NBA or the game of basketball. Then again, seems like some are getting enjoyment out of Milwaukee losing. Good for you. Now you can piss off.
It took a complete Boston team (that should now be favored to win it all) to beat Milwaukee in 7 games with home court without their 2nd best player in Middleton who oh by the way has been a Celtics killer in his career.
In reality, this should have been Boston in 5 or 6.
Bucks shot the 3 historically bad in games 6-7. If they even come close to season averages it’s the Bucks advancing.
That being said, I was not impressed at all with Coach Bud in this series. Why he didn’t play Carter or try Ibaka is just dumb.
I saw at least one other poster mention this but you may as well played Nwora over Allen. Same defense out of the both of them and he could maybe score a bit. Sticking with the same rotation when it was obvious they weren’t coming out of their funk was a bit puzzling.
The criticism of Bud is fair. His use of Lopez in this series was puzzling. Allen and Hill getting a lot of minutes over Carter and Ibaka or someone else is questionable.
@Blair Kiel posted:NOW the season is over. 😀
Thanks BK.
Even if they somehow had won this series, I don't think they win the next two series without Middleton. The indication was that he was nowhere near ready yet.
In some respects, the season really ended when Middleton slipped in Game 2 of the Bulls series.
It's usually true that the teams that win every year end up being the healthiest. Embiid's orbital fracture, Ben Simmons' back and feelings, Middleton's MCL, Murray's failure to come back from his injury in Denver, Anthony Davis' various issues, etc. You just can't be missing one of your top 3 players and expect to win.
Boston is fairly healthy (Rob Williams is their 8th or 9th guy). Miami has got everyone available assuming Lowry is back. The Warriors have their top 4 healthy.
It’s not just one of your top players. Middleton is an All Star. Against Boston, his value is heightened given his style of play. He could create his own shot not unlike Tatum. Difference is Middleton is also a very good defender as well.
@Tschmack posted:The criticism of Bud is fair. His use of Lopez in this series was puzzling. Allen and Hill getting a lot of minutes over Carter and Ibaka or someone else is questionable.
I'm not sure Ibaka was playable against the Celtics. After his surgeries, he's basically just a slower and less mobile version of Lopez. In retrospect, they must have dealt for him specifically to match up against Embiid. However, if they could have had DDV back for this series, it would have helped a lot.
Carter just isn't big enough to hold up in this series, but you're right, literally anyone would have been better than Grayson Allen in these last two games. It was just how bad he played, it was that he looked terrified in Game 7. You can't bring a guy back who shows you he can't handle the pressure. 1-13 from the floor, 0-8 from three.
@Tschmack posted:It’s not just one of your top players. Middleton is an All Star. Against Boston, his value is heightened given his style of play. He could create his own shot not unlike Tatum. Difference is Middleton is also a very good defender as well.
We (including me) would get frustrated when Middleton would have one of those 6-21 type games he was prone to. But then he'd go for 35 the next game.
He's a three-time all star and had games of 40, 38, 38, 35, 29, 29, 26, 25, and 23 in the last 17 games of the playoffs last year.
It wasn't just the shot creation. It was the fact that the Celtics would have had to devote Marcus Smart or Tatum to guarding him. Instead, they just further loaded up on Giannis.
Holy shit. Dallas up by 40 against phoenix in the 3rd quarter.
Chris Paul is never going to win a ring.
@Tschmack posted:How is it a fart in the wind? If you really think that you don’t know the NBA or the game of basketball. Then again, seems like some are getting enjoyment out of Milwaukee losing. Good for you. Now you can piss off.
It took a complete Boston team (that should now be favored to win it all) to beat Milwaukee in 7 games with home court without their 2nd best player in Middleton who oh by the way has been a Celtics killer in his career.
In reality, this should have been Boston in 5 or 6.
Bucks shot the 3 historically bad in games 6-7. If they even come close to season averages it’s the Bucks advancing.
That being said, I was not impressed at all with Coach Bud in this series. Why he didn’t play Carter or try Ibaka is just dumb.
No one is taking enjoyment out of the Bucks losing, so just relax. Bottom line is it’s frustrating they couldn’t get things done after they were in a position to do so after the big Game 5 win. If they were of a Championship level then they would have closed and they didn’t. I’d say the same thing about the Packers, Brewers or Does.
Stop taking yourself so seriously.
Suns-Mavs was a really weird series.
No close games after Game 1.
Suns won their other two by 20 and 30
Mavs won their four by 9, 10, 27, and whatever tonight ends up being.
Maybe Eric Bledsoe is now off the hook for having the worst playoff series during the Giannis era?
Grayson Allen averaged 26 minutes a game over the 7 games. 5 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists on average.
@MichiganPacker posted:Chris Paul is never going to win a ring.
And I fucking love it.
@Tavis Smiley posted:No one is taking enjoyment out of the Bucks losing, so just relax. Bottom line is it’s frustrating they couldn’t get things done after they were in a position to do so after the big Game 5 win. If they were of a Championship level then they would have closed and they didn’t. I’d say the same thing about the Packers, Brewers or Does.
Stop taking yourself so seriously.
If they were of a championship level?
They’re defending NBA champions. That is pretty much the definition of championship level.
They were missing their second best player. That‘a like asking a heavyweight fighter to go up against Mike Tyson in 1987 with one hand tied behind his back, and still managing to go 12 rounds.
Caliing this Bucks team “a fart in the wind” is a bit ridiculous. Outside of Giannis, the rest of the team didn’t play well, and we hung in to the very end against the team that likely wins the chip. While I’m disappointed, I’m proud we got as far as we did.
Actually, proud and reeling. The Penguins just lost game seven to New York.
I don’t think two of my teams have been eliminated in the playoffs n the same day, only hours apart, before. That’s a new level of getting kicked in the nuts.
Fart in in the wind suggests they were better and didn’t repeat or win more than they should have.
That’s a good analogy only difference is the NBA isn’t the NFL or MLB. In the NBA, especially the playoffs, your roster actually shrinks and the Bucks didn’t have one of their main guys in Middleton for the entire series.
So yeah, it has nothing to do with me “taking myself too seriously.” The Packers were the better team the last two years and choked. The Brewers are a flawed team, although, I could argue they choked last gear against ATL. If you try to project or compare the Bucks v Celtics I’m sorry you are a moron. Perhaps if Middleton was healthy but obviously he was not.
In the end, surely Milwaukee missed a golden opportunity after game 5 but in reality they only had about a 5% chance to win that game.
Home teams win 80%+ of the time in game 7s. Which means if you are are a Phoenix fan you have a right to be bent over that outcome.
This is professional sports we’re talking about. I get that the NBA is not the NFL, which is not MLB, which is not the NHL, etc, etc, etc. But we’re talking about proving you’re the best team in your respected league year to year in any sport. The way this is defined is by winning championships, and yes this sometimes means by overcoming adversity due to injuries or otherwise.
Although it pains me to say, the Bucks didn’t show that they could do that this year. They did not play at a championship level. If they did they wouldn’t be home now. The fart in the wind statement is a reactionary statement that reflects that their championship last year (in all it’s glory and fun that it was), was a one year thing and that’s it in my opinion. You can disagree if you want, and time will tell. But don’t tell me that winning a championship means anything different from league to league. It’s about being the best in your sport year in and year out. This is defined by championships.
@MichiganPacker posted:Before or after you knew Middleton was out for the series?
After they lost Game 6
You guys think Boston is beating Miami?? I don't think so...Guess we'll see.
Miami hasn’t exactly been challenged up to this point. Boston played a tough series with Milwaukee.
To me, it all depends on which team can hit enough 3s as both teams have proven they can play good defense.
In many ways, Middleton's injury was legacy defining for several Bucks players and staff.
Giannis - up. Holiday - even. Bud - down. G. Allen - down in the subbasement. Horst - down. Middleton - up (short-term), down (long-term)
Even though the Bucks lost, it only enhanced Giannis' legacy. When you get criticized for a 25-20-9 Game 7 when your teammates shoot 3 for 30 from three and the entire defense just sells out to stop you, you know you are at a top 20 level all-time. He could have easily had 15 assists if guys hit even 30% of open shots. 200-100-50 in a series. Three 40-10 games. The first 40-20-5 playoff game in years.
It really reinforced what Jrue Holiday is. An outstanding defender and teammate who is just too limited on offense to ever be a perennial all-star level player. He makes clutch shots and isn't afraid to take them, which makes him the perfect #3 on a title team. He just can't make contested shots often enough to be a #2.
Bud's legacy is as a guy who believes in his system and sticks with it no matter what. This can be considered a criticism (and should be in some cases), but it's also what his mentor, Popovich, has done for decades. Not trying someone else other than G. Allen is maddening, though. He kept playing Allen because I guess he expected him to go nuclear at some point from three like he did in the Bulls series, but at some point you'd think you'd seen enough. I'd have liked to see Carter, but I think he'd have been exposed on post-ups for easy points.
Jon Horst missed on some decisions this year. The worst was the DDV trade for Ibaka. To get absolutely nothing out of your only tradeable asset is criminal. It's not Ibaka's fault he was washed up and immobile (I guess), but even getting a wing back that could play 10 minutes a game would have been useful. Heck, just keeping DDV might have made this a different series since at least he wouldn't be a turnstile on defense. At least you could package DDV in a sign and trade for something this offseason as well. The PJ Tucker decision was somewhat mitigated by getting Matthews, but if you look at their decision as a choice between signing Tucker and extending Allen at the same money, that is one of the worst decisions Horst has made. If they can trade Allen for a pack of used gum to get luxury tax relief they should do it.
G. Allen will forever be a guy that chokes when the stakes are highest. Airballing wide open 3s and really shaky at the FT line for a guy who normally hits 90 percent says it all. He played scared like Eric Bledsoe. DDV never played scared.
But the biggest effect on a legacy caused by Middleton's injury was to Middleton himself - and it's both positive and negative. On the positive side for his stature, his absence showed just how good he is, particularly in the playoffs. He's a guy that gets better the higher the pressure is. He doesn't get rattled, he's a sneakily good defender, and he's one of the best isolation players in the NBA. On the flip side, him missing this series makes it all the more likely he'll be remembered in 15-20 as just another good NBA player. If he stays healthy and the Bucks get to another NBA Finals and win it, you start talking about him as a borderline Hall of Famer. 3-time all-star, Olympian, a guy who scored over 35 multiple times in last year's playoffs, a 40 point Finals game. The second best player on a two-time champion. Now, if they don't win another one, he'll be a Rip Hamilton type. Not bad company for a former second-round pick, but not what it could have been.
@Tschmack posted:Miami hasn’t exactly been challenged up to this point. Boston played a tough series with Milwaukee.
To me, it all depends on which team can hit enough 3s as both teams have proven they can play good defense.
No way a team with Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson (if he plays), Max Strus, PJ Tucker, and Oladipo goes 4 for 34 from the three point line (Game 7) or 3 for 15 (Game 2).
A lot has happened since, but when you consider the Bucks drafted in the top 20 several times since Giannis was drafted and didn't have a single guy from any of those picks play (or even get traded in a package that brought in someone else who played yesterday), that's damning.
Jabari Parker - 2nd pick, Rashard Vaughn - 17th pick, Thon Maker - 10th pick, DJ Wilson - 17th pick, DDV - 17th pick.
To be fair, they did draft Brogdon as a 2nd rounder and he was essentially part of the package they shipped out for Holiday (the first rounder they got was put into the Holiday trade), but those first-round picks were brutal. You don't know who the Bucks had on their draft boards when they made the picks but some of the second-guessing can drive you crazy. Sabonis was drafted the pick after Maker. John Collins was two picks after Wilson.
If any single one of these guys was serviceable or was moved for something serviceable, the Bucks win the series even without Middleton.
The Bucks rotation this series was 8 guys. Outside the Big 3 (Big 2 in this series) every other member of the rotation was obtained as a street free agent or in a deal with no first round picks involved.
G. Allen was obtained for a second round pick and Sam Merrill (another second round pick).
They played four other guys making close to the minimum or slightly above that they gave up nothing to get (Matthews, Connaughton, Hill, and Portis).
Lopez was originally signed as a street free agent 4 years ago for no compensation (Lopez).
Holiday was obtained not based on previous draft capital, but by shipping out almost their entire draft capital for the rest of the 2020s. It was a great trade, but the fact they mortgaged any future help in Giannis' prime to do it was more of a result of how poorly they had drafted from 2014-2018.
The fact the Bucks won a title and have been elite for 4 years despite drafting this poorly is incredible and really indicates how good Giannis and Middleton have been.
The issue the Bucks have that the Nuggets also have is that players just don't want to go there, so they need to draft well or sign undervalued free agents which is really hard to do consistently drafting in the 20s. Teams like Miami, LA, NY area, Dallas, Houston, etc. just have an easier time filling players 4-8 on their roster with "good" players because free agents just want to be in those cities.
Of course injuries change everything too. Nuggets were missing Murray and Porter all year and Bucks missing Middleton this round. Next man up just doesn't happen in the NBA with your top three.
Who the hell doesn't want to live in Denver. Athletes are super ignorant people, aren’t they?
Denver still lives in the stereotype for a lot of the country, that we're just a "cowboy" town. We're not very diverse and our nightlife revolves more around breweries than the clubs. Denver also isn't a very flashy town, where a lambo or ferrari driving down the street creates more questionable looks than awes. So don't completely blame young athletes.
What they do ignore though are the number of athletes NOT from Denver who end up staying after their career because it's a really good city. But is what it is. At least you guys got a championship last year. I'm not sure if the Nuggets have one in them (I have questions about Murray and major questions about Porter).
This offseason is going to be interesting.
Pat C and Portis have player options at 5.7M and 4.5M respectively. Portis could easily opt out and double his salary, and I think there’s a strong chance he does just that. I think Pat C will opt in for next year. But he’s certainly gone after the 2022/2023 season.
Lopez is intriguing because he does a lot of things pretty well, but at 34 with back issues and an expiring contract it wouldn’t shock me if they tried to move him.
Middleton will be eligible to sign an extension this summer, but I’m not sure the Bucks should or would do that. He’s on the books for next season, but has a player opt out for 40M after next year.
Ibaka and Carter and Matthews will be gone, but they still have Hill and Allen for next year. The Allen contract is for 2 more years at about 9.5M per year.
They also have the 24th pick in the upcoming draft.
@CUPackFan posted:The issue the Bucks have that the Nuggets also have is that players just don't want to go there, so they need to draft well or sign undervalued free agents which is really hard to do consistently drafting in the 20s. Teams like Miami, LA, NY area, Dallas, Houston, etc. just have an easier time filling players 4-8 on their roster with "good" players because free agents just want to be in those cities.
Of course injuries change everything too. Nuggets were missing Murray and Porter all year and Bucks missing Middleton this round. Next man up just doesn't happen in the NBA with your top three.
Granted, Miami did attract Jimmy Butler down there (and I guess Lowry as well), but they are the #1 seed in the East in large part because they drafted really well. Adebayo was the 14th pick in the same draft the DJ Wilson at 17. Tyler Herro is what we hoped DDV would be, and he was the 13th pick in 2019. The Raptors drafted Precious Achiawa in 2020 and he was a key to the sign and trade for Kyle Lowry. But they aren't where they are without drafting and developing Herro and Adebayo from similar positions in the draft the Bucks were drafting Vaughn, DDV, Wilson, and Maker.
Golden State is threatening for another title with Curry, Klay, and Draymond because they added Poole drafting at the end of the 1st round and picked up Wiggins and Kuminga for D. Russell.
Boston is where they are at mainly because of the Pierce/Garnett trade to the Nets (eventually Tatum and J. Brown), but also because of Grant Williams (pick 27).
The Bucks have gotten NOTHING via the draft since Giannis. Not even a current rotation player.
@Tschmack posted:This offseason is going to be interesting.
Pat C and Portis have player options at 5.7M and 4.5M respectively. Portis could easily opt out and double his salary, and I think there’s a strong chance he does just that. I think Pat C will opt in for next year. But he’s certainly gone after the 2022/2023 season.
Lopez is intriguing because he does a lot of things pretty well, but at 34 with back issues and an expiring contract it wouldn’t shock me if they tried to move him.
Middleton will be eligible to sign an extension this summer, but I’m not sure the Bucks should or would do that. He’s on the books for next season, but has a player opt out for 40M after next year.Ibaka and Carter and Matthews will be gone, but they still have Hill and Allen for next year. The Allen contract is for 2 more years at about 9.5M per year.
They also have the 24th pick in the upcoming draft.
The Bucks are about to enter a no-man's land with Middleton. He'll be 32 when he has to decide on his opt-out. Do you extend him at something like 3 years and 140 million and ride with him until he's 35?
John Wall, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Kyrie Irving, Porzingis, Tobias Harris, Kevin Love, Ben Simmons, and Gordon Hayward are all examples of max players whose contract (or potential contracts) are all abject disasters as they age.
The flip side is that without Middleton, we just saw what the Bucks offense looks like. And they are unlikely to get anyone back that's anywhere near as good.
I think Portis goes and gets his money elsewhere after this year. He's a natural fit in Memphis given that he is from Arkansas and he'd be a good fit for what they need. He's a fan favorite but he's almost been played off the floor in two playoff series since he's been here (2021 Nets and 2022 Celtics).
Connaughton may end his career playing for his hometown Celtics in another year or two. He's a great fit on any playoff team (in that he's not a guy who's going to give you 18 a night in the regular season, but is a guy you want on the floor in the playoffs when the pressure is highest).
The Bucks only way to upgrade the roster (outside of moving one of the Big 3) is to package the contracts of Lopez, Allen, and G. Hill. That gets you to about 27 million and there are teams that need interior defense that might be interested in Lopez and perhaps a regular season 3-point shooter like Allen that would help a play-in type team win a few more games.
I'm guessing they will end up running it back again with Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, and Lopez and try to piece together guys around them. No one else other than G. Hill, Thanasis, and Allen is guaranteed to be under contract next year for them.
I think you need to run it back one more year. If you can get creative and find a trade partner for Lopez and some other guys like Hill or Allen you make a serious attempt to do so.
Pat C and Portis have Bird rights so in theory Milwaukee can match and honestly if it’s not too crazy I would bring both guys back even with the luxury tax.
Hope you strike gold with that 24th overall pick and really take a long look at the other guys on the end of the bench. If Carter and Matthews are willing to come back for cheap deals it’s worth it.
Middleton’s game would seem to age well but man I don’t know. I actually tried to piece together a trade scenario involving Middleton but is it Dame? Kyrie? Simmons? None of those options are appealing.
@Tschmack posted:I think you need to run it back one more year. If you can get creative and find a trade partner for Lopez and some other guys like Hill or Allen you make a serious attempt to do so.
Pat C and Portis have Bird rights so in theory Milwaukee can match and honestly if it’s not too crazy I would bring both guys back even with the luxury tax.
Hope you strike gold with that 24th overall pick and really take a long look at the other guys on the end of the bench. If Carter and Matthews are willing to come back for cheap deals it’s worth it.
Middleton’s game would seem to age well but man I don’t know. I actually tried to piece together a trade scenario involving Middleton but is it Dame? Kyrie? Simmons? None of those options are appealing.
The Bucks need 3 and D wings, just like everyone else is looking for.
Even with Middleton hurt, if you replace Grayson Allen with PJ Tucker in the Celtics series, the Bucks probably win.
If you replace Grayson Allen with DDV, the Bucks probably win.
If you replaced Grayson Allen with even Eric Bledsoe, they might have won.
Grayson Allen's Celtics series was the offensive version of playoff Bledsoe and the defensive version of Kyle Korver.
They have to upgrade that position in the offseason and I don't want Allen back under any circumstances.
@Tschmack posted:I think you need to run it back one more year. If you can get creative and find a trade partner for Lopez and some other guys like Hill or Allen you make a serious attempt to do so.
Pat C and Portis have Bird rights so in theory Milwaukee can match and honestly if it’s not too crazy I would bring both guys back even with the luxury tax.
Hope you strike gold with that 24th overall pick and really take a long look at the other guys on the end of the bench. If Carter and Matthews are willing to come back for cheap deals it’s worth it.
Middleton’s game would seem to age well but man I don’t know. I actually tried to piece together a trade scenario involving Middleton but is it Dame? Kyrie? Simmons? None of those options are appealing.
Never, ever, ever on either Kyrie or Ben Simmons.
Lopez would have some value to a team that is terrible on the defensive end and needs some rim protection to even compete for a playoff spot (and need to make the playoffs to save some GM and coaching jobs next year). Teams like the Hawks, Knicks, Hornets, Kings, and Wizards come to mind.
The Bucks need 3 and D wings. Here's some options from packing Lopez with Hill/Allen with those teams.
Trade 1.
Trade scenario 2
I don’t see how or why Atlanta would trade Bogdonavic but if they did I would make that move in a heartbeat.
Harrison Barnes is intriguing but like a Lopez he’s only signed through next season.
Yes, dealing Lopez would mean less rim protection but they desperately need another reliable 3pt shooter on the wing. Bogs or Barnes would give you that element.
Honestly, if the Hawks were interested I’d gladly give them the 24th overall pick as well. Getting rid of Allen and upgrading with Bogs would be worth it. He’s signed for 2 more years and gives them another good sniper that can move without the ball along with Middleton.
Bud's drop scheme is designed to make the non-star players hit 3s in pressure situation to beat you. He's been here 4 years and it worked well in one playoff run. Do you continue it or change it up (which would mean Lopez would not have a role)? The Bucks had three legitimate chances to win titles (2019, 2021, and 2022) and were done in be secondary players getting hot from three. They were also done in by a role player hitting a bunch of threes in 2020 in the bubble when they weren't really a threat to win it based on not ever being in synch after the stoppage.
2019 Toronto: essentially eliminated by Fred Van Vliet going 14-17 from three in Games 4-6.
2020: Jae Crowder goes 22 for 51 from deep in a 5 game Heat win.
2022: Grant Williams goes 6 for 9 in Game 2 and 7 for 18 in Game 7 (as opposed to 4 for 18 in the other 5 games). Al Horford goes 5 for 7 in Game 4 (and then goes 0 for 8 in Games 5-7).
In 2019 and 2022, the drop defense failed because some 4th or 5th option got hot and cost them a couple of games in a series.
In 2021, for all the talk about the toe on the line, Kyrie's injury, etc. the Bucks won largely because the Nets 4th option was terrible from deep. Joe Harris lead the league in 3 point shooting during the regular season that year (48%), and then proceeded to go 8 for 33 in Games 3-7.
Does Bud just stay with drop and Lopez as the dominant defense and hope for another Joe Harris type performance, or does he finally say enough is enough after the Horford/Grant Williams performances?
My guess is that everyone in the Bucks front office and coaching staff just assumes (perhaps correctly) that if they have Middleton they would have repeated and we see more of the same next year.
