Can we please lose them both. Please.
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he is
Originally Posted by El-Ka-Bong:
he is
I agree.
MajorPackerFan wrote:
Circle gets the square.
quote:I agree.
Circle gets the square.
Hawk is at least a guy you keep on the team. I think a fair question to ask is if Francois is ready to take his job. Everything out of camp is that he's been excellent at run defense the whole of training camp.
I don't think cutting Hawk is a good idea. Couldn't ask for a better player off the bench in a pinch.
I'm worried about the guy I overhyped in Manning. Expected him to make a big jump this year. Maybe they're playing it low key, but it seems like he hasn't popped this camp the way I thought he would.
If anyone should be modeling Bush right now I'd think it should be Manning. STs are the one thing that the 4th pre season game settles. I think a lot of the times the games get boring because the coaches evaluate all the basics. They're looking for blocking, tackling, and special teams play.
I think it will be interesting how MM handles Young in the last game. I think he'll go through the plays Young is most comfortable with to see where he's at, but it's also kind of showing your hand as to what the rest of the league should prepare for if Rodgers goes down.
One thing to think about (or not think about). If Rodgers goes down Cobb turns into Chris Johnson with Young in the back field. They could get real creative with that combination. Let's hope we never have to see it.
It's not Thompson's MO to cut a guy like Kuhn loose, especially this late in camp. And guys like this he tends to let the string play out. I don't think either is going anywhere.
I agreed with Coach. I was being a smart ass with my kurt response.
I think that with two rookies in the RB staff (expected), Kuhn offers a level of reliability.
Hawk is still first string, no? If he winds up second string, how does he compare to third string? With the multitude of injuries this team incurs, he has value. I don't know why the coaches would keep him on if they didn't think he offered the best chance to win. They evaluate tape better than me.
So we cann watch Zygi's/Spielman's heads explode while they frantically search for them.
I vote for both of them to stay. I'm in the minority in that I really like James Starks, but with the current backs-I think Kuhn offers something different than the rest. Just 4 plays a game Kuhn leading blocking for Lacy and his special teams ability would be worth keeping him. Definitely over Starks and Franklin-send Franklin to the magnificent 7.
Keep Hawk. Never a star, but decent player in a position where even the greats look bad at times...and he can play special teams.
Originally Posted by titmfatied:
I'm worried about the guy I overhyped in Manning. Expected him to make a big jump this year. Maybe they're playing it low key, but it seems like he hasn't popped this camp the way I thought he would.
You, me and several lamp posts around here too. I read "a scout's from another team" evaluation being something like - he's not big, not strong, not fast and doesn't really play the position well but wow he can really blitz.
Guess I'm the only one wanting to see them go. Really baffling to me though. I watch Hawk run up a lineman's back as the running back goes by or spin around like a Dervish in the middle of the field as a flanker passes him on the left and a tight end on the right, and just as I'm about to swear at the tv, I pause, to see Hawk make a miraculous recovery and arrive at the ball, in time to jump the pile. Then I swear at the tv. He's like an old sweater, I remember wearing it because my wife bought it, but I never really liked it and I wish she'd let me thrash it. Linemen push him aside like the little kid who's brother doesn't want him following the bigger kids; he's slow, and he has little strength compared to the league. I won't ask when's the last time he made a play; caused a fumble, a sack, recovered a fumble because I know the answer. High school. But I will ask if someone can remind me the last time he stood a runner up in the hole. Saw it plenty from the San Fran linebackers, the Seattle linebackers...
Kuhn over Boyd?... over Mulligan?... over Banjo?... at the final cut it's guaranteed there will be someone gone that each of you will be greatly sorry to see let go because of potential. I realize potential doesn't always mean much, but what else are we to judge rookies on? And that's what it may come down too. I've liked Kuhn, but not so that that I thought he was much more than JAG. He once offered a little something in the running and passing game but Crabtree offered more and they let him go. Kuhn is there to block for Rodgers and Lacy. Who thinks he's a great lead blocker? Once when Lacy was stopped in the Seattle game Kuhn was tossed aside as if he wasn't there. Another couple times he hit the wrong man, barely.
When other teams "continue" to gash us up the middle by running over and by Hawk, or "continue" stuffing our RB's like they have been for all the years Kuhn has been lead blocking, maybe some of you will come around.
I forgot, Kuhn protects Rodgers, which is why he was only sacked 51 times. We only shudder to think how deep into the ground Rodgers would be buried if Kuhn hadn't been there.
We'll keep them both, I know. But why?... no clue. Can anyone explain?...
Because the coaches know more than you do?
Originally Posted by GBFanForLife:
Because the coaches know more than you do?
Usually, but not always. Pretty sure a lot of us knew Harrell couldn't play a long time ago.
This is a doozy of a post, I will try my best to work through some of it...
Originally Posted by Hud:
Kuhn over Boyd?... over Mulligan?... over Banjo?... at the final cut it's guaranteed there will be someone gone that each of you will be greatly sorry to see let go because of potential.
And those are the guys you would rather keep over Kuhn? Mulligan maybe, but what are those other two and a lot of other guys doing to justify a spot? At a minimum, Kuhn can pass protect, is assignment sure, and is really solid on STs. Will he stifle Julius Peppers? No. Will he pancake Patrick Willis? No. Does he single handily bring down Devin Hester? No. He's a role player just like everyone else on the team. Are Josh Boyd's potential or Chris Banjo's potential making tackles on STs or keeping blitzers away from Rodgers? No. It's not "what will you do for me in 2 years", it's "what can you do for me now". Guys with potential belong on the practice squad.
I realize potential doesn't always mean much, but what else are we to judge rookies on? And that's what it may come down too. I've liked Kuhn, but not so that that I thought he was much more than JAG. He once offered a little something in the running and passing game but Crabtree offered more and they let him go. Kuhn is there to block for Rodgers and Lacy. Who thinks he's a great lead blocker? Once when Lacy was stopped in the Seattle game Kuhn was tossed aside as if he wasn't there. Another couple times he hit the wrong man, barely.
Sure, you don't cut rookies who have potential, but those rookies also have to contribute something immediately. Sam Shields didn't make the team because he was fast, he made it because he consistently showed real skill as a CB. Dez Moses didn't make it because he could have been good, he made it because he WAS good and showed it. Are Josh Boyd and Chris Banjo showing consistent ability to contribute right away? They're flashing good plays, but they're not getting in the mix with the 1's like Sam Shields was as a rookie. They're guys who need a redshirt year because a year with the team and in the weightroom could help them become good players. Then you lost me with Crabtree. Crabtree offers/offered more than Kuhn? Not buying that. If he did, they would have kept him. They're not stupid, they don't have some unrealistic loyalty to Kuhn, they keep the 53 best. They easily replaced Crabtree with Mulligan, do you think it would have been that easy to find a replacement for Kuhn? I don't.
I forgot, Kuhn protects Rodgers, which is why he was only sacked 51 times. We only shudder to think how deep into the ground Rodgers would be buried if Kuhn hadn't been there.
Come on, that's weak stuff. So it's Kuhn's fault he was sacked 51 times? That's bull. So Kuhn is responsible for Newhouse's cement feet? Or Bulaga's injury that forced a rookie to start? Or Jeff Saturday being 100 years old? Or Rodgers holding the ball for 30 seconds?
You're placing value on flashy plays from a couple of rookies instead of some key factors. Does anyone know the defense as well as Hawk? Can anyone line up the whole defense and make all the right calls and adjustments like Hawk? That's an extremely valuable thing. No Hawk is not the most talented ILB, but there is something to be said for a guy who can be the QB of the defense.
Some of you armchair GMs need to get over yourselves, y'all take yourself waaaaaay too seriously. GD I don't include you in that group, you are a voice of reason, keep it up.
I know more than the coaches, that made me giggle.
I can't stand Hawk. I can't. I believe he's the only LB in the NFL to start 16 games in 2012 with zero interceptions, zero forced fumbles, zero fumble recoveries, and zero passes defended. It's not easy to start 16 games and accomplish that.
If he goes another season without forcing a turnover it will run his streak to 3 years. I get accountability and availability. Cutting him now would be a horrible mistake. But he's got to find a way to make some plays in 2013.
I don't think Hawk is a starting caliber ILB either, but the hate/disappointment shouldn't be directed at Hawk IMO. I'm probably the biggest Ted Thompson fan here, but he hasn't handled the Hawk situation right at all IMO. Hawk's best seasons came as a WLB in the 4-3, then they switched to the 3-4 (which was a good move), but he should have moved Hawk at that time...tried to trade him and if no deals came up then he should have cut him. He's miscast as an ILB, and that's not his fault. It's the coaches fault for trying to force the fit and the front office for not trying to change the situation. For all of his failures as a player, he still contributes to the defense. He's a smart guy, he knows the scheme inside and out and makes all the right calls. There's something to be said for that.
I'll try my best to work through some of it...
No, that's pretty weak to say I blamed Kuhn for all of Rodger's sacks. Of course not. Or to somehow equate what he does to bringing down Devon Hester... where do you come up with this? I'm talking about Kuhn and his job, which is to lead block. Oh, and special teams. Does he do it well? I say no, you say yes. That's all there is to the argument. You make no arguments that he does it well.
Can Banjo contribute more than Kuhn? I say yes, but apples to Oranges. Can Mulligan? Yes. Josh Boyd stays than Wison or Jolly or Neal goes. Are they worth more than Kuhn. I say yes. Boyd on PS?... not necessarily but probably picked up. Means we have to draft another biggie next year to replace Pick.
You've done zero to argue that Kuhn is valuable.
And this debate closer that Hawk is the general of the defense... Well, then he's no Rommel or Montgomery because we regularly lose the middle desert war.
A middle linebacker who never makes plays but tells everyone else to, that's your argument?
Originally Posted by Grave Digger:
This is a doozy of a post, I will try my best to work through some of it...
Originally Posted by Hud:
Kuhn over Boyd?... over Mulligan?... over Banjo?... at the final cut it's guaranteed there will be someone gone that each of you will be greatly sorry to see let go because of potential.
And those are the guys you would rather keep over Kuhn? Mulligan maybe, but what are those other two and a lot of other guys doing to justify a spot? At a minimum, Kuhn can pass protect, is assignment sure, and is really solid on STs. Will he stifle Julius Peppers? No. Will he pancake Patrick Willis? No. Does he single handily bring down Devin Hester? No. He's a role player just like everyone else on the team. Are Josh Boyd's potential or Chris Banjo's potential making tackles on STs or keeping blitzers away from Rodgers? No. It's not "what will you do for me in 2 years", it's "what can you do for me now". Guys with potential belong on the practice squad.
I realize potential doesn't always mean much, but what else are we to judge rookies on? And that's what it may come down too. I've liked Kuhn, but not so that that I thought he was much more than JAG. He once offered a little something in the running and passing game but Crabtree offered more and they let him go. Kuhn is there to block for Rodgers and Lacy. Who thinks he's a great lead blocker? Once when Lacy was stopped in the Seattle game Kuhn was tossed aside as if he wasn't there. Another couple times he hit the wrong man, barely.
Sure, you don't cut rookies who have potential, but those rookies also have to contribute something immediately. Sam Shields didn't make the team because he was fast, he made it because he consistently showed real skill as a CB. Dez Moses didn't make it because he could have been good, he made it because he WAS good and showed it. Are Josh Boyd and Chris Banjo showing consistent ability to contribute right away? They're flashing good plays, but they're not getting in the mix with the 1's like Sam Shields was as a rookie. They're guys who need a redshirt year because a year with the team and in the weightroom could help them become good players. Then you lost me with Crabtree. Crabtree offers/offered more than Kuhn? Not buying that. If he did, they would have kept him. They're not stupid, they don't have some unrealistic loyalty to Kuhn, they keep the 53 best. They easily replaced Crabtree with Mulligan, do you think it would have been that easy to find a replacement for Kuhn? I don't.
I forgot, Kuhn protects Rodgers, which is why he was only sacked 51 times. We only shudder to think how deep into the ground Rodgers would be buried if Kuhn hadn't been there.
Come on, that's weak stuff. So it's Kuhn's fault he was sacked 51 times? That's bull. So Kuhn is responsible for Newhouse's cement feet? Or Bulaga's injury that forced a rookie to start? Or Jeff Saturday being 100 years old? Or Rodgers holding the ball for 30 seconds?
You're placing value on flashy plays from a couple of rookies instead of some key factors. Does anyone know the defense as well as Hawk? Can anyone line up the whole defense and make all the right calls and adjustments like Hawk? That's an extremely valuable thing. No Hawk is not the most talented ILB, but there is something to be said for a guy who can be the QB of the defense.
Originally Posted by Hud:
I'll try my best to work through some of it...
No, that's pretty weak to say I blamed Kuhn for all of Rodger's sacks. Of course not. Or to somehow equate what he does to bringing down Devon Hester... where do you come up with this? I'm talking about Kuhn and his job, which is to lead block. Oh, and special teams. Does he do it well? I say no, you say yes. That's all there is to the argument. You make no arguments that he does it well.
Can Banjo contribute more than Kuhn? I say yes, but apples to Oranges. Can Mulligan? Yes. Josh Boyd stays than Wison or Jolly or Neal goes. Are they worth more than Kuhn. I say yes. Boyd on PS?... not necessarily but probably picked up. Means we have to draft another biggie next year to replace Pick.
You've done zero to argue that Kuhn is valuable.
I'm not gonna split hairs, but when you say "Kuhn protects Rodgers, that's why he was sacked 51 times" sounds like you're blaming 1 guys for all the sacks. So his job is ONLY to lead block and because he's a below average lead blocker then he should be cut? Kudos to him to for going above and beyond his only job. If he sucks at Special Teams and as a lead blocker and as a pass protector, WHY DO THEY KEEP HIM ON ALL THOSE THINGS? Professional coaches who do this crap 24/7 say he's good enough to be the primary guy on those jobs, but what they're just wrong? The Head Coach, the ST Coach, the RB Coach (actually he's had multiple position coaches), and the Offensive Coordinator are all just wrong, they don't see it? They don't see what you're seeing? You say I haven't proven that he's good at these things, I don't have to, the fact that he's an over 30 player, making more money than most FBs do, and is still the go-to guy on all these units makes my case. It's on you to prove opposite.
And this debate closer that Hawk is the general of the defense... Well, then he's no Rommel or Montgomery because we regularly lose the middle desert war.
A middle linebacker who never makes plays but tells everyone else to, that's your argument?
I said there is something to be said for a guy who provides that skill, because not everyone can do it. I never argued he was something special. He contributes, he just has physical limitations. The vitriol shouldn't be directed at him IMO, but at those putting him in the position to fail.
Originally Posted by Grave Digger:
I don't think Hawk is a starting caliber ILB either, but the hate/disappointment shouldn't be directed at Hawk IMO. I'm probably the biggest Ted Thompson fan here, but he hasn't handled the Hawk situation right at all IMO. Hawk's best seasons came as a WLB in the 4-3, then they switched to the 3-4 (which was a good move), but he should have moved Hawk at that time...tried to trade him and if no deals came up then he should have cut him. He's miscast as an ILB, and that's not his fault. It's the coaches fault for trying to force the fit and the front office for not trying to change the situation. For all of his failures as a player, he still contributes to the defense. He's a smart guy, he knows the scheme inside and out and makes all the right calls. There's something to be said for that.
This argument makes no sense to me. "I don't think Hawk is a starting caliber ILB..." but you excuse that by saying it's not his fault. Who said it was? Who's blaming him? I actually really like Hawk as a try hard team player who has given his all and helped us win a SB. I've never dissed the man, just the fact that he isn't, in your words, "a starting caliber ILB." But why do you make the point he isn't starting caliber than defend his playing? That's just convoluted. Is it possible Francois is it better? At least worth a try?
Shields had to earn his spot in training camp. Shields, who was our best corner at the end of the year was told he'd have to earn his spot. Not Hawk. It's a birthright.
Hawk obviously stays and starts (with Francois getting more and more playing time), but I think Kuhn gets the axe. Just a WAG of course.
Originally Posted by Hud:
This argument makes no sense to me. "I don't think Hawk is a starting caliber ILB..." but you excuse that by saying it's not his fault. Who said it was? Who's blaming him? I actually really like Hawk as a try hard team player who has given his all and helped us win a SB. I've never dissed the man, just the fact that he isn't, in your words, "a starting caliber ILB." But why do you make the point he isn't starting caliber than defend his playing? That's just convoluted. Is it possible Francois is it better? At least worth a try?
Shields had to earn his spot in training camp. Shields, who was our best corner at the end of the year was told he'd have to earn his spot. Not Hawk. It's a birthright.
I was actually responding to Chilijohn who said he can't stand Hawk. And no I don't see anyone attacking him personally, I think everyone is in agreement he's good enough team player. The point was not about excusing Hawk, it's about finding the real culprit behind his disappointing career, and I don't think it's AJ Hawk. If a guy stinks, but the coaches tell him he's the starter and throw millions of dollars at him, is it his fault when he disappoints? I don't think so. What is he supposed to say? "No coach I think Desmond Bishop should be the starter, I'm happy being a backup" or "No Ted Thompson I won't take 30 million over 5 years, 5 million over 5 years is more appropriate".
And really, just because someone isn't starting caliber doesn't mean he doesn't do anything well. I can't say he's good at a couple things, but not starting caliber overall? There's a lot of guys I could say that about.
Every time I get frustrated with Hawk, I think of Aaron Curry and feel a little better.
Originally Posted by Grave Digger:
Originally Posted by Hud:
This argument makes no sense to me. "I don't think Hawk is a starting caliber ILB..." but you excuse that by saying it's not his fault. Who said it was? Who's blaming him? I actually really like Hawk as a try hard team player who has given his all and helped us win a SB. I've never dissed the man, just the fact that he isn't, in your words, "a starting caliber ILB." But why do you make the point he isn't starting caliber than defend his playing? That's just convoluted. Is it possible Francois is it better? At least worth a try?
Shields had to earn his spot in training camp. Shields, who was our best corner at the end of the year was told he'd have to earn his spot. Not Hawk. It's a birthright.
I was actually responding to Chilijohn who said he can't stand Hawk. And no I don't see anyone attacking him personally, I think everyone is in agreement he's good enough team player. The point was not about excusing Hawk, it's about finding the real culprit behind his disappointing career, and I don't think it's AJ Hawk. If a guy stinks, but the coaches tell him he's the starter and throw millions of dollars at him, is it his fault when he disappoints? I don't think so. What is he supposed to say? "No coach I think Desmond Bishop should be the starter, I'm happy being a backup" or "No Ted Thompson I won't take 30 million over 5 years, 5 million over 5 years is more appropriate".
And really, just because someone isn't starting caliber doesn't mean he doesn't do anything well. I can't say he's good at a couple things, but not starting caliber overall? There's a lot of guys I could say that about.
I guess we don't disagree that much. It's just frustration.
I hope I'm not wrong. I think Hawk is going to make several "plays" this year that include turnovers. Again, I hope I'm not wrong.
Im not a huge AJ Hawk fan but some fans have to understand he shows up for work. Day in day out. Playing for a team that has been ravaged by injuries 2 of 3 seasons um ya, that says a lot.
Sorry Hud but I don't think you understand the 3-4 defense. Hawk has a job to do on running plays and that is to fill a certain gap or take on a certain blocker. His job is to keep the other ILB clean to run free to the ball. That's job one.
Job 1A is to call the D and make sure they are in the right look.
Job two is to make the tackle if he can.
Job 3 is to cover his responsibility in the pass game.
If I recall correctly, Hawk got a lot of credit taking over Barnett's role as the guy who makes the calls after his injury in 2010. However, the club also had Jenkins and a nice contribution by Howard Green playing in front of him. TT let Jenks walk and hoped draft picks and Mike Neal could pick up the slack. Fail. Hawk becomes a whipping boy again. Hopefully the return of Jolly and the addition of Jones makes the DL a strength again.
