Is It Just Me, Or Are the Packers Regressing?

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando Wolf:

quote:

Originally posted by squirrelpee:

While MM and his coaching staff have many glaring issues, I lay a chuck of the dismal performance of the Packers on TTs desk.

I understand the rebuilding aspect but you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater. His reluctance to go after decent veterans before the season even gets started is really hurting the team IMHO. And its not like last season when he had little cap money to use.

I love the Pack and always will. Its sad seeing them be turned into the laughing stock that they have become.

As ugly as the 70's were none of those teams had 2 shut out games at Lambeau in one season. TT gets that honor. Sure hope the team doesn't have anymore before the season is done.

You have to lay off Thompson. The talent is not that bad.

What have we seen to suggest there's all this talent you speak of? There are a bunch of young bodies with some potential, but that's it. Will they develop? Maybe, but SPee's got a valid point.

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Originally posted by Herschel:

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando Wolf:

quote:

Originally posted by squirrelpee:

While MM and his coaching staff have many glaring issues, I lay a chuck of the dismal performance of the Packers on TTs desk.

I understand the rebuilding aspect but you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater. His reluctance to go after decent veterans before the season even gets started is really hurting the team IMHO. And its not like last season when he had little cap money to use.

I love the Pack and always will. Its sad seeing them be turned into the laughing stock that they have become.

As ugly as the 70's were none of those teams had 2 shut out games at Lambeau in one season. TT gets that honor. Sure hope the team doesn't have anymore before the season is done.

You have to lay off Thompson. The talent is not that bad.

What have we seen to suggest there's all this talent you speak of? There are a bunch of young bodies with some potential, but that's it. Will they develop? Maybe, but SPee's got a valid point.

You look at upgrades. Well...
Woodson has been, Pickett has been, Hawk has been, Jennings has been.

quote:

Originally posted by GBP1:
There was a 3rd down play in the 4th qtr. Favre fired straight over the middle to Driver who was not able to pull down the ball after being bumped by the DB. Simms made some remarks about pass interference (which could have been called). But on replay when they showed the play from the backside EZ you could see Ruvell Martin running his route straight up the field. He was running his route somewhat slow and just as knew the pass would not be to him. No wonder why Favre has to throw to Driver all the time...

I noticed that, too. However, I don't think Martin ran it slow not thinking he'd get the ball...I just think he had no clue how to run the route. Therein lies the problem...veteran receivers know how to adjust their routes...on viewing the play again, I would think Ruvell would've know to stop his route and cut it in or a comebacker....he knew he wasnt' going to get the ball because he was covered by the CB with the safety coming over. Martin should've adjusted the route.

but yes, he was realllllllll sllllloooooowwwww on that route

good observation GBP1.

I think favre makes up his mind who he's throwing to at the line of scrimage. No matter what, he is going to that guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando Wolf:
You look at upgrades. Well...
Woodson has been, Pickett has been, Hawk has been, Jennings has been.

But, on Thompson's watch:
1. Jennings has not become an upgrade over Walker.
2. Pickett is no better than a healthy Grady, but I'll give it an upgrade due to age etc. even though Pickett is not as disruptive.
3. Woodson is an upgrade.
4. Hawk appears to be an upgrade.
5. Poppinga is not, although with Diggs' health maybe a wash.
6. College is a downgrade so far from Wahle, and it's not close. Yet.
7. Spitz is a downgrade from Rivera. Again, not close yet, but health/age evens this out some.
8. Wells is a downgrade, but with Flanny's health, let's call it a wash.
9. Miree is a wash as Hendo is a product of body and age.
10. Manuel is a downgrade from Roman. At least Roman was a good play caller/coordinator back there.
11. Collins is a downgrade from dunce-boy Sharper, but we'll see if he shakes off the sophmore slump or goes Marques Anderson.
12. Morency and Davenport are a wash.
13. Herron is a downgrade as a third-down back from Fisher.
14. Ryan is a downgrade from Sander. Sander was at least mediocre. Ryan sucks.
15. Rayner is a downgrade from Longwell.
16. Martin and Francies are a downgrade from Ferguson and Chatman.
17. Rodgers and Nall are a wash at this point, but I sure would like to think Rodgers is an upgrade.

Favre, Green, Barnett, Harris, Davis, the ends, most of the DTackle rotation, the TEs, Clifton, Tauscher and Driver are still in place. While there is a rebuild going on, strictly speaking, we haven't seen much in the way of upgrades. The downgrades outnumber them about 2-1. Will this remain the case? We don't know yet, I'd like to hope not, but again, she has a point thus far. A very valid point.

Nows the time to start implementing the things they want to run next year, try running a screen and getting Green outside for once, make a guard pull, blitz until they know how to blitz properly.

btw - Nice to see Hodge's coverage ability was very similar to Barnetts.

Wow Herschel, that analysis is really not making me feel any better about today's game--and the sad thing is that I agree with your points.

The only thing is that with rookies you never know what you have-- Time and experience may lead them to be good solid players. I remember Wolf saying that he prefered to go with younger, more hungry players... Of course, with rookies, you need good coaching, and I'm afraid Sander's coaching unit is also a downgrade from Bate's units last year!

BTW, did anyone see Brett on the play where Bubba dropped the passin the 3rd quarter?? Brett said: "F*** Bubba!" and did not throw another pass his way again. I truly believe Bubba is also a downgrade over the Bubba from the past!

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando Wolf:
You look at upgrades. Well...
Woodson has been, Pickett has been, Hawk has been, Jennings has been.

But, on Thompson's watch:
1. Jennings has not become an upgrade over Walker.
2. Pickett is no better than a healthy Grady, but I'll give it an upgrade due to age etc. even though Pickett is not as disruptive.
3. Woodson is an upgrade.
4. Hawk appears to be an upgrade.
5. Poppinga is not, although with Diggs' health maybe a wash.
6. College is a downgrade so far from Wahle, and it's not close. Yet.
7. Spitz is a downgrade from Rivera. Again, not close yet, but health/age evens this out some.
8. Wells is a downgrade, but with Flanny's health, let's call it a wash.
9. Miree is a wash as Hendo is a product of body and age.
10. Manuel is a downgrade from Roman. At least Roman was a good play caller/coordinator back there.
11. Collins is a downgrade from dunce-boy Sharper, but we'll see if he shakes off the sophmore slump or goes Marques Anderson.
12. Morency and Davenport are a wash.
13. Herron is a downgrade as a third-down back from Fisher.
14. Ryan is a downgrade from Sander. Sander was at least mediocre. Ryan sucks.
15. Rayner is a downgrade from Longwell.
16. Martin and Francies are a downgrade from Ferguson and Chatman.
17. Rodgers and Nall are a wash at this point, but I sure would like to think Rodgers is an upgrade.

Favre, Green, Barnett, Harris, Davis, the ends, most of the DTackle rotation, the TEs, Clifton, Tauscher and Driver are still in place. While there is a rebuild going on, strictly speaking, we haven't seen much in the way of upgrades. The downgrades outnumber them about 2-1. Will this remain the case? We don't know yet, I'd like to hope not, but again, she has a point thus far. A very valid point.

Wahle and Rivera weren't even with the team last year. If you're going to compare to guys who weren't on last years team I guess Barnette is a downgrade from Nitsche. Right now I'd say Colledge is better at this point in his career than Wahle was. Wahle was in danger of being run off the team after the first couple years.
Ryan is a downgrade from Sander. That's just laughable.
Wells is a downgrade to last years Flanagan (oh wait, a wash)? What is that?
I thought Hawk was playing Diggs LB position. I don't even remember who the other outside linebacker was last year. (was it Rob Thomas, or Ben Thomas, or Rob Petry, or Ben and Jerry?)
Collins is a Free Safety and Sharper is a Strong Safety but regardless, I recall Sharper making some boneheaded moves early in his career. Personally, I think he created the Terrel Owens monster.
Way too early to judge on this group. They aren't all going to be All Pro's but it's the first I've felt pretty good about the Packer's "young talent" in a while.

quote:

Originally posted by packfanincolorado:
...BTW, did anyone see Brett on the play where Bubba dropped the passin the 3rd quarter?? Brett said: "F*** Bubba!" and did not throw another pass his way again. I truly believe Bubba is also a downgrade over the Bubba from the past!

See my post earlier in this thread.

I don't think the Packers are lacking in talent, I just think they are lacking in coaching. For the third week in a row, McCarthy has not had the team ready to play. The only thing that kept the Seahawks game from being a blowout from the start was the weather and some fortunate turnovers, otherwise the Packers have not been in a game since they beat the Vikings.

It is very easy to blame problems on "rookies", however at this point in the year all of the rookies have game experience. I see a lot of good individual performances, but this group does not play as a cohesive unit. The running game was something that seemed to be working, but once again McCarthy abandoned it, even before it was a blowout. Gone are the intermediate pass routes and in place are the long pass plays.

The Packers at one point this season had a decent run defense, but that has gone to the wayside. The linebackers are terrible at pass defense, as are the safeties.

The cold weather has affected Rayner. The kickoff coverage is terrible as no one stays in their lanes. Special teams is a laughingstock.

People talked all year about how McCarthy was going to reign in Favre, but Favre's problems of slinging it where it shouldn't be are as evident as ever. Not all of it is Favre's fault, as he is just running the offensive game plan given to him.

If McCarthy can go back to what was working earlier this year, perhaps the final four games could be salvaged into a couple of wins. The Packers need to get back to the run and a ball-control passing attack. That will allow the defense to catch its breath which may improve the defensive performance, or if nothing else limit the amount the defense can be exploited.

quote:

Originally posted by Smedley:
Wahle and Rivera weren't even with the team last year. If you're going to compare to guys who weren't on last years team I guess Barnette is a downgrade from Nitsche. Right now I'd say Colledge is better at this point in his career than Wahle was. Wahle was in danger of being run off the team after the first couple years.
Ryan is a downgrade from Sander. That's just laughable.
Wells is a downgrade to last years Flanagan (oh wait, a wash)? What is that?
I thought Hawk was playing Diggs LB position. I don't even remember who the other outside linebacker was last year. (was it Rob Thomas, or Ben Thomas, or Rob Petry, or Ben and Jerry?)
Collins is a Free Safety and Sharper is a Strong Safety but regardless, I recall Sharper making some boneheaded moves early in his career. Personally, I think he created the Terrel Owens monster.
Way too early to judge on this group. They aren't all going to be All Pro's but it's the first I've felt pretty good about the Packer's "young talent" in a while.

This was Thompson's SECOND year, though, and the decisions in question were made BY HIM. Wahle's early career is meaningless within the discussion. He was past the stage where Colledge is now. That's a simple fact.

Ryan is a downgrade from Sander, or haven't you watched lately? I even said Sander was mediocre, but that's better than low-liner Ryan.

When Thompson took over, Diggs was the Strong-Side linebacker. He moved to weak-side last year, after Thompson came on board.

Sharper made lots of bonehead plays even earlier this year, and I was very tired of his act long ago, but again, at this point, Collins has regressed. Sharper played both safety spots at times, but go from lineup to lineup.

I stated clearly that it's too early to judge the end-result and that there is a rebuild going on, but AT THIS POINT, there are fewer upgrades than downgrades.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:


When Thompson took over, Diggs was the Strong-Side linebacker. He moved to weak-side last year, after Thompson came on board.

Other way, Hersch, other way. Remember, when Mikey signed Diggs to his big contract he promised him the WLB position. Last year Thomas was the WLB.

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:


When Thompson took over, Diggs was the Strong-Side linebacker. He moved to weak-side last year, after Thompson came on board.

Other way, Hersch, other way. Remember, when Mikey signed Diggs to his big contract he promised him the WLB position. Last year Thomas was the WLB.

Ah yes, you are correct. So, Hawk is an upgrade over Diggs and Poppinga is maybe upgraded to a wash.[/QUOTE]

After thinking this over, I'd still take Hanibal Navies over Poppinga's play, but that margin is narrowing.

I was trying to remember a season as bad as this one(last year was close) but you need to return to the Infante years, certainly Forrest Gregg to find a Packers performance this bad.

But the first bad decision goes back a number of years: Ron Wolf hired Ray Rhodes instead of Andy Reid to be head coach after Holmgren left. I suspect the Packers would be like the Eagles now instead of being like, well, Gregg's Packers.

Then instead of hiring Marty Schottenheimer, he hires Mike Sherman. Sherman led the team to winning, but you could tell the wheels were slowly coming off.

Then Harlan hires Ted Thompson, a nearly invisible manipulator with a keen sense of making the wrong choice most of the time. Latest exhibit: he interviews Sean Payton and Mike McCarthy. Payton is closing in on Coach of the Year and McCarthy is trying to figure out what has gone wrong.

I figured this team would improve as the season has gone on. It has gotten worse, much worse. Can't blame injuries, except at wide receiver.

They were blown out by a close to .500 team and thoroughly outcoached by another young coach on their home field.

It's easy to pile on after a loss like this, but if you need examples that the wheels have come off, the Bears at Lambeau, New England at Lambeau and New York at Lambeau.

This week will be a good indicator. After McCarthy leaves the 49'er offense behind, they start to turn it around. If they lose to the 49'ers, it will be a very telling tale to the wisdom of Ted Thompson.

The mutiny of McKenzie a few years ago, along with Walker and a few others who couldn't wait to leave town tells me Green Bay has rolled back to the "Siberia of the NFL" reputation of a few years ago, pre-Holmgren, about the same time as Infante and Gregg.

quote:

Originally posted by MichiganPacker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GBP1:


This brings up a larger point. When was the last time you saw a Packer receiver get great separation from the DB (other than Driver running a slant)?

Yes. I have a friend back in La Crosse who has mentioned this point several times and remarked about it last year too. It seems like you see other WRs so open and the Packers got to fight to get in position to grab the ball.

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As I have said countless times. Attempting to coach a team that is primarily rookies is a daunting task for any HC. Asking a newbie HC to do that is really stacking the deck against him in terms of any substained forward progress.

Is this team really that young though?

Driver, Favre, Franks, Green, Wells, Tauscher, Clifton, Pickett, Woodson, Harris, Barnett, Kampman, KGB, Williams are all veterans. Heck, even Collins, Poppinga, and Manuel aren't true rookies.

The only true rookies are Spitz, Colledge, Miree (I guess), Hawk, and Jennings. That's it. I guess you could throw Ryan and Rayner in there as well.

The guys on this team that are playing poorly are mostly the vets- Clifton, KGB, Favre (at times), and Franks.

quote:

While MM and his coaching staff have many glaring issues, I lay a chuck of the dismal performance of the Packers on TTs desk. I understand the rebuilding aspect but you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater. His reluctance to go after decent veterans before the season even gets started is really hurting the team IMHO. And its not like last season when he had little cap money to use.

Again, who did you want them to sign? Lavar Arrington (HURT)? LeCharles Bentley (HURT)? Steve Hutchinson (GOOD BUT NOT LIVING UP TO THE HYPE)? Julian Peterson is about the only guy out there that is playing really well they could have signed. Heck, the guy he resigned (Aaron Kampman) is playing better than any free agent they could have signed and Pickett and Woodson are playing pretty well.

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I love the Pack and always will. Its sad seeing them be turned into the laughing stock that they have become.

What's this "become" crap? They were 4-12 last year when your buddy was the HC. Funny how you forget to mention that detail.

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As ugly as the 70's were none of those teams had 2 shut out games at Lambeau in one season. TT gets that honor. Sure hope the team doesn't have anymore before the season is done.

How many home games did they win last year? How did their last home playoff game turn out?

Seriously, your act is really tired and if you want to keep up with the TT bashing at least come up with some new material.

quote:

Originally posted by net:
I was trying to remember a season as bad as this one(last year was close) but you need to return to the Infante years, certainly Forrest Gregg to find a Packers performance this bad.

But the first bad decision goes back a number of years: Ron Wolf hired Ray Rhodes instead of Andy Reid to be head coach after Holmgren left. I suspect the Packers would be like the Eagles now instead of being like, well, Gregg's Packers.

Then instead of hiring Marty Schottenheimer, he hires Mike Sherman. Sherman led the team to winning, but you could tell the wheels were slowly coming off.

Then Harlan hires Ted Thompson, a nearly invisible manipulator with a keen sense of making the wrong choice most of the time. Latest exhibit: he interviews Sean Payton and Mike McCarthy. Payton is closing in on Coach of the Year and McCarthy is trying to figure out what has gone wrong.

I figured this team would improve as the season has gone on. It has gotten worse, much worse. Can't blame injuries, except at wide receiver.

They were blown out by a close to .500 team and thoroughly outcoached by another young coach on their home field.

It's easy to pile on after a loss like this, but if you need examples that the wheels have come off, the Bears at Lambeau, New England at Lambeau and New York at Lambeau.

This week will be a good indicator. After McCarthy leaves the 49'er offense behind, they start to turn it around. If they lose to the 49'ers, it will be a very telling tale to the wisdom of Ted Thompson.

The mutiny of McKenzie a few years ago, along with Walker and a few others who couldn't wait to leave town tells me Green Bay has rolled back to the "Siberia of the NFL" reputation of a few years ago, pre-Holmgren, about the same time as Infante and Gregg.

It's hard to argue with any of that. The Packers have made a large number of bad choices it seems, and when that happens you wind up where we currently reside.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by net:


But the first bad decision goes back a number of years: Ron Wolf hired Ray Rhodes instead of Andy Reid to be head coach after Holmgren left. I suspect the Packers would be like the Eagles now instead of being like, well, Gregg's Packers.

EVEN AT THE TIME THIS SEEMED LIKE A TERRIBLE DECISION. WOLF WAS A GREAT GM FOR THE PACKERS, BUT HE LET POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GET TO HIM. I THINK IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR THAT REID WAS A GREAT HEAD COACHING CANDIDATE. THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THERE WAS INTENSE PRESSURE TO HIRE SHERM LEWIS TO COACH THE TEAM. THE NFL WAS PUSHING FOR MORE MINORITY HIRES AND LEWIS HAD BEEN THE NOMINAL OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR OF THE PACKERS DURING THE HOLMGREN YEARS. WOLF, ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE NFL, DIDN'T THINK MUCH OF LEWIS' POTENTIAL AS A HEAD COACH, BUT CHICKENED OUT ON HIRING REID (WHO WAS TECHNICALLY LEWIS' SUBORDINATE). THE ONLY WAY HE COULD ESCAPE CRITICISM WITHOUT HIRING LEWIS, WAS TO HIRE A MINORITY COACH, WHICH HE DID BY HIRING RHODES. THEN NOT ONLY DID YOU GET A LOUSY HEAD COACH, BUT THEY KEPT SHERM LEWIS TO RUN THE OFFENSE. THE TEAM WENT 8-8 (WITH FAVRE LESS THAN 100%), BUT FAVRE ALMOST SINGLEHANDEDLY WON 3 GAMES IN THE FINAL TWO MINUTES FOR THEM. AT LEAST WOLF KNEW ENOUGH TO FIRE RHODES AFTER THE SEASON. IN SUMMARY, THE RHODES HIRE WAS DONE TO CREATE THE BEST SITUATION FOR RON WOLF TO ESCAPE CRITICISM FOR NOT HIRING SHERM LEWIS, AND WAS NOT THE BEST DECISION FOR THE GREEN BAY PACKERS ORGANIZATION.

Then instead of hiring Marty Schottenheimer, he hires Mike Sherman. Sherman led the team to winning, but you could tell the wheels were slowly coming off.

I MIGHT BE IN THE MINORITY, BUT I STILL THINK MIKE SHERMAN IS A DECENT NFL HEAD COACH. HE AND MARTY SCHOTTENHEIMER HAVE THE SAME MO TO THIS POINT, A GOOD REGULAR SEASON RECORD FOLLOWED BY GAGGING IN THE PLAYOFFS. THE PROBLEM, WHICH HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT IN DETAIL ON THIS BOARD, WAS THE SHERMAN HAD NO EXPERIENCE IN EVALUATING TALENT. HE WAS BASICALLY FORCED INTO TAKING THE GM JOB WHEN WOLF RETIRED WITH LITTLE WARNING. IN THIS CASE, HARLAN MADE A BAD DECISION OUT OF LOYALTY TO SHERMAN. I THINK IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT SHERMAN WAS NOT QUALIFIED TO BE AN NFL GM, BUT HARLAN FELT HE COULDN'T HIRE SHERMAN'S BOSS WITHOUT CAUSING POTENTIAL PROBLEMS FOR SHERMAN. BUT AGAIN, EVEN AT THE TIME, THE DECISION WAS NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE ORGANIZATION.

Then Harlan hires Ted Thompson, a nearly invisible manipulator with a keen sense of making the wrong choice most of the time. Latest exhibit: he interviews Sean Payton and Mike McCarthy. Payton is closing in on Coach of the Year and McCarthy is trying to figure out what has gone wrong.

I THINK REGGIE BUSH MAKES A BIT MORE OF DIFFERENCE IN FORCING PEOPLE TO GAME PLAN AGAINST THAN HIS STATISTICS SUGGEST. I ALSO THINK THAT THE NEW ORLEANS WIDE RECEIVERS ARE A LOT BETTER THAN OURS. JENNINGS IS AN AVERAGE #2, GOOD #3 RECEIVER, AND DRIVER IS OVERRATED BY MANY ON THIS BOARD.

HAVING SAID THAT, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR CONTINUALLY GETTING OUTCOACHED SO THOROUGHLY. UNTIL LAST YEAR, MIKE SHERMAN'S TEAMS WERE AT LEAST ABLE TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS IN SEASON. THE PACKERS THIS YEAR KEEP GETTING BEAT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD AND KEEP HAVING TEAMS RUN MULTIPLE RECEIVERS TO CONFUSE THEIR ZONE PASS DEFENSE. IT LOOKS LIKE THE PACKERS HAVEN'T CHANGED ANYTHING AT ALL DURING THE SEASON. AND WHY DIDN'T MCCARTHY AND SANDERS TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN THE FIRST HALF YESTERDAY LIKE BLITZING? EVEN IF THEY GOT BURNED, AT LEAST THEY WOULD HAVE ATTEMPTED TO DO SOMETHING.

THE OTHER THING IS THAT IF THEY CONTINUALLY HAVE TO MAX PROTECT, THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TROUBLE SCORING POINTS BECAUSE THEIR RECEIVERS ARE JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO GET OPEN OTHER THAN DRIVER RUNNING THE SLANT. WHEN YOU ONLY RUN TWO RECEIVERS OUT ON EACH PATTERN AND THEN HAVE GREEN OR FRANKS RELEASE LATE FOR SAFETY VALVES, ANY DEFENSE CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO STOP IT


They were blown out by a close to .500 team and thoroughly outcoached by another young coach on their home field.

MCCARTHY CERTAINLY DOES LOOK OVERMATCHED. MAYBE THERE IS A REASON HE HAS BEEN A CAREER ASSISTANT. AT THIS POINT, GIVEN THE STUNNING LACK OF YOUNG TALENT ON THIS TEAM, I DON'T THINK WE'VE HIT BOTTOM YET. WE'LL SUFFER THROUGH ANOTHER COUPLE OF YEARS OF SPLITTING GAMES WITH THE BOTTOM HALF OF THE LEAGUE AND GETTING BLOWN OUT BY GOOD TEAMS. I SEE A STRING OF 5-11, 6-10 TYPE YEARS AT BEST. THEN THEY'LL FIRE THOMPSON AND BRING IN ANOTHER GM IN ABOUT 2009.

"Seriously, your act is really tired and if you want to keep up with the TT bashing at least come up with some new material."

I welcome you to put together a cogent argument which exempts Ted Thompson from blame in the current state of affairs also known as "Back To The Future-Green Bay".

Please, lets see it.

"EVEN AT THE TIME THIS SEEMED LIKE A TERRIBLE DECISION. WOLF WAS A GREAT GM FOR THE PACKERS, BUT HE LET POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GET TO HIM. I THINK IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR THAT REID WAS A GREAT HEAD COACHING CANDIDATE. THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THERE WAS INTENSE PRESSURE TO HIRE SHERM LEWIS TO COACH THE TEAM. THE NFL WAS PUSHING FOR MORE MINORITY HIRES AND LEWIS HAD BEEN THE NOMINAL OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR OF THE PACKERS DURING THE HOLMGREN YEARS. WOLF, ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE NFL, DIDN'T THINK MUCH OF LEWIS' POTENTIAL AS A HEAD COACH, BUT CHICKENED OUT ON HIRING REID (WHO WAS TECHNICALLY LEWIS' SUBORDINATE). THE ONLY WAY HE COULD ESCAPE CRITICISM WITHOUT HIRING LEWIS, WAS TO HIRE A MINORITY COACH, WHICH HE DID BY HIRING RHODES. THEN NOT ONLY DID YOU GET A LOUSY HEAD COACH, BUT THEY KEPT SHERM LEWIS TO RUN THE OFFENSE. THE TEAM WENT 8-8 (WITH FAVRE LESS THAN 100%), BUT FAVRE ALMOST SINGLEHANDEDLY WON 3 GAMES IN THE FINAL TWO MINUTES FOR THEM. AT LEAST WOLF KNEW ENOUGH TO FIRE RHODES AFTER THE SEASON. IN SUMMARY, THE RHODES HIRE WAS DONE TO CREATE THE BEST SITUATION FOR RON WOLF TO ESCAPE CRITICISM FOR NOT HIRING SHERM LEWIS, AND WAS NOT THE BEST DECISION FOR THE GREEN BAY PACKERS ORGANIZATION. "

I had heard similar things, but the minority hiring thing didn't seem to stop other teams from picking successful coaches. Wolf punted on this one. I was one of Mike Sherman's strongest backers on this board, but I had to concede his personnel moves and drafting were very questionable. But if Ted Thompson hadn't come on the scene, I suspect the Packers would be at least competitive, something which they certainly are not now.

quote:

I had heard similar things, but the minority hiring thing didn't seem to stop other teams from picking successful coaches. Wolf punted on this one. I was one of Mike Sherman's strongest backers on this board, but I had to concede his personnel moves and drafting were very questionable. But if Ted Thompson hadn't come on the scene, I suspect the Packers would be at least competitive, something which they certainly are not now.

Bob Harlan really screwed up when he appointed Mike Sherman the GM of the Packers. Wolf put him in a bad spot by retiring, and then suggesting to Harlan that he give Sherman more duties. Harlan should have went out and hired the best available GM right then. Had Sherman been viewed as a quality coach by the new GM he would have kept his job as HC.

No, I think both you and the Packers are regressing.

Any objective fan should be able to sit back and look at the personnel decisions that have occurred in the last several years and understand THAT is why this team is so bad right now.

Let's see for a second during that timeframe I've described (as a snapshot)

FREE AGENTS- Joe Johnson, Hardy Nickerson, Nick Luchey, Mark Roman, Mike Hawthorne

DRAFT PICKS- Joey Thomas, Ahmad Carroll, Robert Ferguson, Donnell Washington, BJ Sander

TRADES- Terry Glenn, Marques Anderson/R-Kal Truluck

CONTRACT EXTENSIONS- Cletidus Hunt, Na'il Diggs, KGB, Mike Wahle, Darren Sharper

Now, if you want to bash Ted Thompson, go ahead. The Marquand Manuel signing looks like a disaster. Obviously the Klemm move didn't work out, and some of his first year draft picks like Whittacker and Collins look a little shaky. Murphy and Underwood showed good potential before getting hurt.

HOWEVER, he's made what appears to be many good decisions since that point. Resigning Kampman was a nice move, Woodson and Pickett look pretty decent, and choosing not to resign Longwell doesn't seem like a big deal. He also found Spitz, Colledge, Hawk, and Jennings- all starters, in one draft not to mention Rayner and Ryan.

Did Wolf make some mistakes? Yeah, he probably did. But it's hard to argue his draft record and that made up for some questionable free agent and coaching moves. They were a better team with Wolf than without him. As for TT, he's been at the job 1 1/2 seasons and he inherited a complete joke of a team that was left in shambles from his predecessor.

Again, rip on TT all you want but IMO it's Sherman that screwed the pooch with his personnel moves more than anything else.

agree - but TT isn't exactly lighting up the board

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But it's hard to argue his draft record

are you kidding me?

besides his one GREAT DRAFT = he had more lemons than good ones

go back and review yourself

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HOWEVER, he's made what appears to be many good decisions since that point. Resigning Kampman was a nice move, Woodson and Pickett look pretty decent, and choosing not to resign Longwell doesn't seem like a big deal. He also found Spitz, Colledge, Hawk, and Jennings- all starters, in one draft not to mention Rayner and Ryan.

Did Wolf make some mistakes? Yeah, he probably did. But it's hard to argue his draft record and that made up for some questionable free agent and coaching moves. They were a better team with Wolf than without him. As for TT, he's been at the job 1 1/2 seasons and he inherited a complete joke of a team that was left in shambles from his predecessor.

Again, rip on TT all you want but IMO it's Sherman that screwed the pooch with his personnel moves more than anything else.

The above is a nearly total whitewash and a near complete bag of B.S.

You are talking about players on a team that has been blasted out of the water by the New York Jets, the New England Patriots, the Chicago Bears. Right now Hawk shows some potential and Jennings did, until he disappeared a few weeks ago following recovery from injury.

Am I wrong or didn't the Jets start two rookies on their offensive line? They didn't seem to have any problems moving the ball.

While I don't want to rehash the Mike Sherman story again, you fail to mention the re-signs(like Donald Driver, Nick Barnett, Chad Clifton, Mark Tauscher, others) who made the Packers division champs. To say the team was a disaster ignores it didn't become a disaster until Ted Thompson tried to replace All-Pros with whoozzits and rookies. The argument that Sherman left the cupboard bare is nonsense.

Sherman believed in paying veterans. Thompson believes in paying rookies and only paying veterans when embarrassed into it(Woodson signing as an example)
What he has done is established a perpetual rebuilding program in Green Bay.

New Orleans(blown out by Green Bay 51-3 last year) will make the playoffs this year after being about as bad as you can be last year. It doesn't take forever to turn something around anymore, yet we now are into the second year(8-20) of the Ted Thompson reign of terror. When does "the future" begin? Next year? Maybe no Favre? Nick Collins is in his second full year and I would hardly put him into the realm of "Pro Bowl" contender. Underwood has been around two years and contributed nearly zilch. You gotta be on the field to contribute.
Patrick Dendy starting? Culver? Aaron Rodgers hasn't shown the ability to push Favre at all. He might be Ted-Boy's Jamal Reynolds.

Dream on friend and don't say you haven't been warned about Ted's Reign of Terror on Packers fans.

quote:

While I don't want to rehash the Mike Sherman story again, you fail to mention the re-signs(like Donald Driver, Nick Barnett, Chad Clifton, Mark Tauscher, others) who made the Packers division champs. To say the team was a disaster ignores it didn't become a disaster until Ted Thompson tried to replace All-Pros with whoozzits and rookies. The argument that Sherman left the cupboard bare is nonsense.

That's the real BS my friend.

Of those resigns (actually, they were extensions, not resigns) not to mention McKenzie, Sharper, Wahle, and Green, BTW, all of those players were Ron Wolf selections!!! Nick Barnett wasn't resigned or extended.

quote:

Sherman believed in paying veterans.

Wrong there skippy. Sherman's MO was to pay everybody and everyone while he was running the team. Great strategy there!!! It worked for the Driver's and Green's of the world, but it wasn't quite so good for the KGB's, Ferguson's, Diggs' and Hunt's of the world, eh?

The team became a disaster because Sherman bounced the checkbook a few too many times (i.e. cap hell), and he missed on far too many draft picks and free agents. Why and how we are still debating this crap I'll never understand.

The ONLY reason this team remained competitive during the Sherman era was because Wolf left him a pretty decent nucleus of players- Favre, Henderson, Clifton, Tauscher, Franks, Longwell, Sharper, Driver, Wahle, Freeman, McKenzie, etc. What players of value did Sherman add? Al Harris? Nick Barnett? Javon Walker? That's really about it.

What put us over the top on defense in the Ron Wolf era was four defensive linemen signed as free agents: Reggie White, Sean Jones, Gilbert Brown, and Santana Dotson. Add in the stability in the defensive backfield by Mike Prior/Eugene Robinson, also signed as free agents.

I don't expect we will have such a great run of signing defensive difference makers like that anytime soon....so the burden is on the coaches to scheme to make what we have sucessful. What is so frustrating is that there is more talent on this team defensively than last year, yet their play is substantially worse. What's changed...the coordinator.

Bob Sanders was promoted because he was Jim Bates' d-line coach, and it was felt he could continue the scheme. He's failed. I can't imagine our defense would be this bad under Bates...coaching does make a difference.

It's true that the Packers have regressed since week 10. When our record was 4-5 we were still talking about the woulda, coulda, shoulda games (ie Saints, Rams, Buffalo), talking about the improvement the team was showing, gushing about Kampy and the DL's play, and M3 was even getting some praise for his game-day decisions. Now all of a sudden we can't stop the run, haven't been able to run the ball, the offense can't sustain any drives, the coaches can't adjust and/or prepare the players, and we wonder if we will win another game this season.
I can't blame injury for the poor defensive performance against the run these last 3 games. Kenderick Allen is the only notable on IR; surely he wasn't that big of a difference maker. Woodson and Harris have held their own but Manuel and Collins (and Carroll before he was released) have been lost the entire year. Our LB's still can't defend the pass but have done well against the rush.
I can blame injury for the state of the offense though. Losing Tauscher has really hurt, Clifton hasn't been 100% this year (IMO), and our WR situation has been absymal 2 years in a row. Losing our rookie phenom last year and having Jennings hurt this year has compounded these problems. Hendo has been hurt this year, Ahman and Morency have been nicked up; it goes on and on.
I agree the team's future looks bright. But the last 2 years seem like we can't keep up with all the leaks that develop. Plug one and 2 more pop up. Makes me wonder if we can ever catch up.

Ron Wolf is not the problem now. Mike Sherman is not the problem now. Pasts administrative decisions did lose the 8 games this season. And last season's coaching moves have not contributed to any of this year's losses.

I blame Vince Lombardi. He should have never gone to the Redskins and then die.

quote:

Originally posted by GBP1:
Ron Wolf is not the problem now. Mike Sherman is not the problem now. Pasts administrative decisions did lose the 8 games this season. And last season's coaching moves have not contributed to any of this year's losses.

The previous GM absolutely has had an effect on the talent on this year's roster.

Net said:

quote:

To say the team was a disaster ignores it didn't become a disaster until Ted Thompson tried to replace All-Pros with whoozzits and rookies.

My sentiments exactly. I got the sense that Ted's idea was to deliberately detour and rush the team into rebuilding mode with the above strategy, shuffling players to get the team as 'rookie' as he could reasonably get it, the better to "rebuild" it in his own image when they were otherwise still a relatively serviceable team and could have instead been tinkered here or there to get back to a prime level, and maybe never even hit the bottom they're hitting now. This coach, too, is in the same mold. "Instead of looking for someone with any experience or particularly noted ability or winning record, I'm going to dredge up a nobody from nowhere who I have a hunch will be good. Then if he becomes a Lombardi, they will all marvel at my brilliance. And I'll have a while to do this because there'll be a lot of people wanting to give us a break for some time because, 'come on, they're a young team with a young coach--they're rebuilding!' "

The team wasn't going anywhere by "tinkering with the roster here & there"....

quote:

I got the sense that Ted's idea was to deliberately detour and rush the team into rebuilding mode with the above strategy, shuffling players to get the team as 'rookie' as he could reasonably get it, the better to "rebuild" it in his own image when they were otherwise still a relatively serviceable team and could have instead been tinkered here or there to get back to a prime level, and maybe never even hit the bottom they're hitting now. This coach, too, is in the same mold.

Oh give me a break.

Yeah, I'm sure TT is intentionally trying to blow up the team so they could rebuild.

If that's the case why did he throw big money at guys like Woodson, Pickett, Kampman, Franks, and Wells? That doesn't seem to me to be indicative of moves a guy would make if he's trying to "deliberately detour" this team into rebuilding.

It's funny as well that both the coach and GM made it completely obvious they wanted Favre back this year. Again, how does that show they are trying to blow up the team and start over?

The reality is that some people are annoyed by TT and McCarthy because they aren't "nice guys" like Sherman was and they aren't going to rush to judgment one way or the other with personnel decisions. IMO, I have no problem with that strategy. Being patient and understanding the long term future of this team is the only way to go because we've seen what can happen if you "try to win right now" and that didn't work with Mike Sherman. Heck, to be honest, it hasn't worked with teams like Minnesota, Washington, Miami, etc either.

This team is exactly the team we thought they were ... UN-crown their arses !

-- Patience is a virtue.

I think people underestimate the Jets. By the end of the year I suspect the three teams we weren't competitive against -- Chicago, New England, New York -- will be clearly the best three teams we played all season.

That's no excuse for getting blown out at home, but I think the reality is that we're the team who beat the worst teams we played, was competitive or won against the teams of similar talent, and got killed by the best teams we faced. We're not much worse now than when we were 4-5 and people were all excited and stuff, we've just faced better opposition.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
I think people underestimate the Jets. By the end of the year I suspect the three teams we weren't competitive against -- Chicago, New England, New York -- will be clearly the best three teams we played all season.

That's no excuse for getting blown out at home, but I think the reality is that we're the team who beat the worst teams we played, was competitive or won against the teams of similar talent, and got killed by the best teams we faced. We're not much worse now than when we were 4-5 and people were all excited and stuff, we've just faced better opposition.

Max, I agree with you for the most part. However, I would add that not only did we get beat by better teams (talent wise) but those games the Packers were clearly out coached. Also, I look at games like Philly, and Seattle where the first halves and second halves were totally opposite. got to be the coaches fault. One side made adjustments, one side just got adjusted.

I dunno, I think the only difference between the first and second halves of the Eagles and Seahawks games was that their players on the field stopped turning it over. Eagles fumbled twice near our goal line in the first half, Hasselbeck was a turnover machine. I don't know if it was coaching adjustments that stopped that.

I'm no great fan of this coaching staff, but if you want to "blame" the coaching staff for not making second-half adjustments, you could just as easily credit them for coming out with a gameplan that enabled us to stay close, for a half, to superior teams, until the true comparative talent levels shone through the rest of the way.

We are regressing. We're getting worse on a weekly basis. I'll even go you one better - we were a better team last year. At least last year we were competitive. How many of our losses were by a touchdown or less? 7? 8? This year we're the team that everybody wants to play.

Players? Coaches? Injuries? Inexperience? Bad luck? Bad karma? Who cares? All I know is that Green Bay is this close to becoming the Gulag of the NFL again like it was in the 70s and 80s.

Sanders and Schottenheimer should be fired immediately. Period. I don't care who takes over. I simply cannot imagine that our defensive talent level is so low that it's completely derailing good coaching. What I see week in and week out is a complete lack of communication, players out of position, poor schemes, no gameplaning and ineffective in-game adjustments.

I think I'll scream the next time I see Kampmann trying to cover a WR because all the linebackers are blitzing (and not getting to the QB). Now that I think of it, I did scream last time I saw that.

Look - we're not the 1985 Bears, or even the 2006 Bears, but we've got Harris, Woodson, Barnett, Hawk, Pickett, Kampmann, KGB. Toss in the 2005 version of Nick Collins. That's a lot of good talent right there. We should be able to field a really good defense with players like that. And they're getting worse every week.

If McCarthy can circle the wagons enough to keep the players from mailing the rest of the season in, then I say he deserves another year or two. If not, then TT needs to replace him as well.