LeBron James: “That one right there made you the greatest of all time”

I am not the biggest NBA fan at all (used to be) and one of the reasons is this constant debate of who is the GOAT.  Why can's we just appreciate greatness regardless of the era?

I know many are huge LeBron fans but I am definately not one of them.  Is he a great player oh man he sure is but I guess I just get tired of hearing about his every move.  I swear ESPN would report on what he had for breakfast and when he had his morning bowel movement.

LeBron forgets a lot of things about that Championship in Cleveland- like the fact that Kyrie Irving made that dagger 3 to win it, or the Warriors momentum was thwarted by Green’s suspension. Or that he’s 3-6 in Finals in an era when the EC was the red headed stepchild of the NBA.

He forgets that he actively takes whole months of seasons with about 50% effort.  That he was the one who said the Cavs must pay Tristan Thompson, JR Smith, and Kevin Love. He was the same guy that demanded they keep Ilgaskus and that entire cast of misfits in LeBron Cavs the first show.

And let’s not forget the “The Decision” parts 1 and 2 and 3. James going to LA IMO sealed his fate as the biggest front runner ever. He demands his friends get paid and then bails when the mistakes pile up. Then parades around calling himself the GOAT? **** this dude... 

LeBron is a top 5 player all time, but he's not the GOAT. Jordan and Kareem (who I think is criminally underrated as an all-time great) are both better. 

You pointed out that the Cavs title was tainted by a questionable suspension of Green. And Irving was the one that hit the critical shot.

He also forgets that one of his titles with the Heat was only possible because Ray Allen hit one of the biggest clutch shots in NBA history - a contested 3 pointer running backwards after LeBron missed a wide open 3. 

LeBron is a better version of Scottie Pippen - the guy that does everything really well, but often needs someone else to hit the clutch outside shot. He's what we hope Giannis becomes. 

Also, the media completely ignores the fact that LeBron is closely linked to the same PED outfit, Biogenesis, that Ryan Bran and Alex Rodriguez got their PEDs from. 

I view LeBron very much like I view Shaq in that at his best he is/was unstoppable but it was more to do with freakish size and athletic ability than pure skill.  

I will always view MJ as the GOAT because he was the best player in the game for most of his career and was so nails come playoff time.  

Larry Bird is one of the most clutch players in history, so much so, he used to tell the opposing players where exactly he was going to get the ball to win the game and then he'd do just what he said, and win the game.  Lebron misses all kinds of shots in crucial situations and has his teammates bail him out.  Bird's trash talk alone would have Lebron cowering in the corner crying, and most don't consider Bird the GOAT as good as he was.

MJ would drop 40 on you if you looked at him wrong.  Players were *scared* to piss off MJ.  Who's scared to piss off Lebron?  Yay, you came back in the finals once.  MJ put up 40 on the Jazz in the finals with the flu and hit the game winning shot.

Lebron will never come close to matching either one.

I wonder how often LeBron would foul out in the 80's NBA? His game is so much about his physicality, and while guys like Bird and Majic played physically, they also dominated with other aspects of the game. The Hick from French Lick was no slouch.

Music City posted:

First, the GOAT discussion is never something a player should engage in directly.

Finally, we agree.  Anyone who has to tell you how great they are is most likely suffering from some serious inferiority complex (and not somebody I'd ever want on my team).  The truly great ones don't have to tell you how great they are.  

Larry Bird is a top 5 player without a doubt. Not a smarter player ever. If he played today, all of today’s so called “best” would be looking up at him. 

James saying that just solidifies what is wrong with the argument that he is the greatest. The statement about Jordan and pissing him off... that’s so true. You’re not going to score if MJ decides you can’t.  

And when Giannis surpasses lebron, I’ll smile...

You can access Bill Simmons' all time rankings here back in 2010.

https://www.basketball-referen...simmons_pyramid.html

He's often full of himself, but at least Simmons makes an effort to provide his rationale. He had Lebron at #20 back then - pre-titles. I think he has Bill Russell too high (#2), but I otherwise mostly agree with him. The question is where to put the guys after this decade - Lebron, Durant, Curry. 

I'd drop Russell to about #5 or #6 on the list. I'd put Lebron after Kobe at #9. Curry and Durant are tough guys to place. Is Curry a transformational top 10 player or is he more like Steve Nash (#36)? Where do you place Durant? I think he has to be top 25 at this point. 

2010 Bill Simmons Rankings

1. Jordan

2. Bill Russell

3. Kareem

4. Magic

5. Bird

6. Wilt 

7. Duncan

8. Kobe

9. Jerry West

10. Oscar Robertson

11. Olajuwon

12. Shaq

13. Moses Malone

14. Havlicek

15. Elgin Baylor

16. Erving

17. Bob Pettit

18. Karl Malone 

19. Barkley

20. LeBron

21. Cousy

22. Kevin Garnett

23. Isiah Thomas

24. Pippen

25. John Stockton

Hungry5 posted:

I wonder how often LeBron would foul out in the 80's NBA? His game is so much about his physicality, and while guys like Bird and Majic played physically, they also dominated with other aspects of the game. The Hick from French Lick was no slouch.

Lebron is a physical beast, but you have to wonder how he'd have fared if teams were allowed to do some Pistons "Jordan Rules" stuff to him. Jordan was a mean SOB and did everything with an edge. He was pathologically addicted to winning and would do anything to succeed. That made him the GOAT athlete and a POS human being at times, but there aren't many wired like him. Maybe peak Tiger Woods comes close. 

The Pistons beat the shit out of him physically for years and he kept picking himself back up and eventually stuck it to them. Shoot, he used to purposely slow up on breakaways just to be able to dunk on guys like Laimbeer. He'd toy with a guy like Draymond Green who gives LeBron some trouble at times. 

If LeBron were around in the late 80s/early 90s, it would have been interesting to see how he'd have responded to having Rick Mahorn, Charles Oakley, etc. absolutely hammer him for games at a time. 

His flopping bullshit wouldn’t have gotten very far...

That’s a really good point about the rule changes. 

The hand check alone changed things forever especially for guards.  Guys like Oscar and MJ and Bird and Stockton put up huge numbers when defenders could have their hands all over them.  I’m not sure Curry or LeBron or Harden would have survived as teams would have worked them over.  Westbrook probably could have because despite his quirks he’s one tough and physical SOB. 

Gary Payton probably wouldn’t have a job in today’s NBA. 

 By the way I like your list but I would have Garnett ranked higher than Barkley or Malone. He was a transformational player that could do it all.  Defensively he was as good as anyone in his era including Payton. Malone and Barkley were more one dimensional.  

Tschmack posted:

 By the way I like your list but I would have Garnett ranked higher than Barkley or Malone. He was a transformational player that could do it all.  Defensively he was as good as anyone in his era including Payton. Malone and Barkley were more one dimensional.  

It's Bill Simmons' list with my comments, but I agree on Garnett over both Karl and Moses Malone. Barkley was such a unicorn. A guy about 6'4" who dominated on the boards. If he hadn't have played Jordan, he'd have won at least one title. He was dominant for a few years on the Suns. 

Tschmack posted:

That’s a really good point about the rule changes. 

The hand check alone changed things forever especially for guards.  Guys like Oscar and MJ and Bird and Stockton put up huge numbers when defenders could have their hands all over them.  I’m not sure Curry or LeBron or Harden would have survived as teams would have worked them over.  Westbrook probably could have because despite his quirks he’s one tough and physical SOB. 

Gary Payton probably wouldn’t have a job in today’s NBA. 

Durant would have trouble also. Mahorn or Oakley would have broken him in half. 

Tschmack posted:

Malone and Barkley were more one dimensional.  

If by one dimensional you mean could score and get rebounds, then yes, horribly one dimensional.  (****ing Barkley couldn't even manage to average 4 assists a game)  

I think he belongs in the 6-10 range.  I know at times, LeBron has taken over games in clutch situations, but I have seen him at other times absolutely not want to take the shot in other clutch situations.

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Jabbar - they all are more clutch, imo.

I even get irritated by the "James is GOAT" talk.

No way.

In light of the recent efforts...

CAN WE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT LEBRON  JAMES ANYTHING CLOSE TO “THE GOAT?” It’s nonsense!!  

This guy is the biggest front-running piece of trash the league has seen. Never has someone with so much found more reasons to not...

Music City posted:

In light of the recent efforts...

CAN WE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT LEBRON  JAMES ANYTHING CLOSE TO “THE GOAT?” It’s nonsense!!  

This guy is the biggest front-running piece of trash the league has seen. Never has someone with so much found more reasons to not...

He's still a top 10 player all time, but I've always thought he was always more of a better version of Scottie Pippen than a Michael Jordan. 

You can pick out individual moments in many championship runs if you want, so maybe this is unfair to do. But if Ray Allen doesn't hit one of the biggest clutch shots in history and if Draymond Green doesn't get suspended in a questionable situation, LeBron has one ring. 

He doesn't crack the top 5 and I am unsure top 10.

He feasted on a weak Eastern Conference for a decade. And frequently when the going got tough, Lebron got moving, or quit trying. Like now. 

He’s a top talent all time. But Michael did more with less...

His time with the Lakers could very well define his legacy when it’s all said and done.   This is truly “his team” and if can find a way to get that team into the playoffs and make some noise then it’s something to be respected.  

The problem is wants to play general manager and coach as well and he’s basically alienated everyone on that roster by trying to add other components like Anthony Davis.  

Other than wanting to be in LA I’m not sure why anyone would want to team up with him and the Lakers.   You will always be second fiddle and it’s not like the surrounding talent is very good.  

Superteams are great as long as the chemistry is there.  If not, it’s just a bunch of “me” guys.  

Music City posted:

He feasted on a weak Eastern Conference for a decade. And frequently when the going got tough, Lebron got moving, or quit trying. Like now. 

He’s a top talent all time. But Michael did more with less...

Very true.

He had at least one other HOFer and other All-Star Level guys on his teams going back to when he was with the Heat. And these guys were all All-Stars without Lebron and then had to change their games to defer to him.

D. Wade is a first ballot guy, Chris Bosh is an 11 time All-Star, Ray Allen (who helped get him one ring) is a HOFer. 

Kyrie Irving is a HOF talent. Kevin Love is a 5 time all-star. And Music is right, if the  Cavs had been in the West they don't make anywhere near the numbers of Finals appearances.

LeBron is a top 5 talent all time that is capable of making average NBA guys with very specific skills look better than they are. Specifically, 3 and D guys. He actually tends to make all-star level guys more average than they were without him. This is exactly what Kevin Durant said earlier this year. 

These five guys were generational talents and almost always made everyone around them better. 

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kareem

3. Magic Johnson

4. Larry Bird

5. Bill Russell

6. Tim Duncan

There's a gap and then these other guys are somewhat interchangeable. These guys are similar. Great talents who didn't always make the other guys around them better, but they still won. 

7. Wilt

8. Kobe Bryant

9. LeBron

10. Shaq

Tschmack posted:

His time with the Lakers could very well define his legacy when it’s all said and done.   This is truly “his team” and if can find a way to get that team into the playoffs and make some noise then it’s something to be respected.  

The problem is wants to play general manager and coach as well and he’s basically alienated everyone on that roster by trying to add other components like Anthony Davis.  

Other than wanting to be in LA I’m not sure why anyone would want to team up with him and the Lakers.   You will always be second fiddle and it’s not like the surrounding talent is very good.  

Superteams are great as long as the chemistry is there.  If not, it’s just a bunch of “me” guys.  

The Warriors have worked so far because Curry, and especially Klay Thompson, did not mind giving up some of the accolades to Durant (who is more of a me guy than the other Warriors).

The Heat worked because Chris Bosh was willing to become a role player after having made 5 all-star teams in a row with the Raptors. 

These rankings are all subjective and fun to talk about, whether he is number 1 or number 10 or whatever, he was pretty good.  He looks old and beat up now and is nearer the end than the beginning.  But I thought Brady was dead too so who knows.  

I have MJ, Magic, Kareem, Bill R, Kobe, Bird, Olajuwon, Duncan, Wilt and LBJ.  Not necessarily in that order.  We may need to make room for KD and others soon. It is an ever evolving list.  Never a Shaquille guy but he is in the next level.

I actually thought Le'Brons best season was last year when he took the Cavs to the finals - honestly, I didn't think they would get there & then in game #1 vs. the W's almost stole one if not for JR Smith gaff at end of regulation.

The East was awful last year with exception of Boston and Cleveland with LeBron.  

The tables have turned this year as the top 4-5 teams are all very good and can make the conference finals.