MLB on Strike

I absolutely hate the DH and the shift because it just further cheapens the game and puts more emphasis on the HR.  

Part of the joy and beauty of baseball is the strategy and unpredictability of outcomes.   I mean, one of my all time favorite moments in sports was seeing Kirk Gibson walk it off.   Or Kirby Puckett doing the same in the 1991 series.  

All time great hitters like Gywnn and Molitor and Boggs and Ichiro would struggle a lot more today because of the defensive shifts.  

Then there’s the issue of competitive balance.  It’s obvious to me that without a floor, it just encourages small market teams to tank.  But when nearly 1/3 of the teams and owners follow this approach, it will be hard to convince them to act differently.  

@Tschmack posted:

I absolutely hate the DH and the shift because it just further cheapens the game and puts more emphasis on the HR.  

Part of the joy and beauty of baseball is the strategy and unpredictability of outcomes.   I mean, one of my all time favorite moments in sports was seeing Kirk Gibson walk it off.   Or Kirby Puckett doing the same in the 1991 series.  

All time great hitters like Gywnn and Molitor and Boggs and Ichiro would struggle a lot more today because of the defensive shifts.  

Then there’s the issue of competitive balance.  It’s obvious to me that without a floor, it just encourages small market teams to tank.  But when nearly 1/3 of the teams and owners follow this approach, it will be hard to convince them to act differently.  

@Tschmack posted:

I absolutely hate the DH and the shift because it just further cheapens the game and puts more emphasis on the HR.  

Part of the joy and beauty of baseball is the strategy and unpredictability of outcomes.   I mean, one of my all time favorite moments in sports was seeing Kirk Gibson walk it off.   Or Kirby Puckett doing the same in the 1991 series.  

All time great hitters like Gywnn and Molitor and Boggs and Ichiro would struggle a lot more today because of the defensive shifts.  

Then there’s the issue of competitive balance.  It’s obvious to me that without a floor, it just encourages small market teams to tank.  But when nearly 1/3 of the teams and owners follow this approach, it will be hard to convince them to act differently.  

I agree on the DH, but if you get rid of it all that happens is that you get another 2-3 strikeouts each game when the pitcher bats.

I'm not sure the shift would be that effective against Gwynn, Boggs, or Ichiro. They had great bat control and would just spray the ball to the opening. The problem is that guys like that aren't valued by GMs because it takes three of those spray hitters to get singles to score a run in an inning rather than having three guys with uppercut swings swing for the fences every time. Even if the Ichiro types have OBPs of .400, the chances of getting those three singles in a row with two outs to score a run is a much lower (0.064) chance than just having three shots in an inning with guys that hit home runs every 20 plate appearances.

1)  Shorten the game.  Way too much time with nothing going on.  I played baseball for 11 years.  I loved playing it, never could stand watching it.

2)  Shorten the season/generate more excitement.  You don't need 360,000 games and very few people have the attention span to follow the season for so long.  Why does MLB think it needs so many games to sort out who the best team is?  I get money is part of it, but maybe they could make as much or more with more packed stadiums less often rather than half empty or less most of the season.  I don't know.

The other part of that is, it doesn't promote excitement about the season when 30 losses isn't a big deal.  Compare that to the NFL, where even one loss can make a big difference.

Finally, do the post season series need to be 5-7 games?  Wake me up on the deciding game of the series.  Again, compared to the NFL, where it's win or go home.  Different sports, yeah, but how much more exciting does that make the NFL post season?  Can't MLB be the best of three?

3)  Institute an NFL-type salary cap system.  Rarely can small market teams get to the post season or have long-term success.  They can't compete with the teams that buy championships.  Fans of small market teams have little to look forward to, and the best players don't want to go there unless they're the one or two guys who are on big contracts.  I'm sure the big contract guys would like to win, but they're there to make money.  Then they're gone when the team can longer pay them competitive salaries. 

These may just be pipe dreams, but they're the main reasons I don't watch baseball until the final game of the WS.  And, I would venture to say, some of the main reasons viewership is falling.  Plus I'm going to guess newer generations don't have the patience for the type of game it currently is.  If it's all about money, which is probably the case, and MLB doesn't want to make changes, it could die as a league.  But maybe, just maybe, changes like these could actually make the league more money.  My $.02, and probably worth every penny.

And, they may have to reduce the number of teams.

A 120 game regular season, all teams make the playoffs.

@D J posted:

A 120 game regular season, all teams make the playoffs.

Hell, just make it one big elimination tournament, last team standing wins.  Series are 3 games a piece.

Again, if you are an MLB owner (even big market teams) you see what the Cubs and Astros and and now the Rays have been able to do.  Basically go into full tank mode or trade away expensive assets to accumulate picks or prospects.  Some of those picks work out and voila!  You win a title or make the playoffs for a few years and generate a shit ton of revenue and tear it all down again before having to pay those star players.  

The Pirates and Marlins have no interest whatsoever in spending money or winning.  They don’t care.  

The Rays, Brewers, A’s, and Indians care a little more about winning, but not at the expense of doing more than they absolutely need.

7 inning games.  Cut 50 games out of the season.  Add a pitch clock.  And add rules to prevent excessive pitching changes.  Unsure how to fix the home runs and strike out issue though.  But it's a start. 

I know I'm in a huge minority but I just don't see the issue with length of time of games.  If you just want to watch a game on TV then the above suggestions are good. But I have to drive 3 1/2 hours to see a ML game.  I wouldn't  drive that far to watch a a 2 hour or less movie, why would I drive that far to see a game in person?   There always 2 sides to almost every issue.

I’m not totally bothered by the length of games either.  

I do think 162 games is way too much and in colder climates starting games in early April is stupid.   Places like Minneapolis and Chicago and Cleveland can be absolutely miserable early in the season.  If they reduced the season by 15-20 games and started a month later I think the players would be fine with it.  Owners might not want to give up the $$$.

People may not like the NBA but the draft lottery is fun, the play in game is interesting, and no league has a better trade deadline than they do.  Players picking their All Star teammates is entertaining.   If they do the mid season tournament that would be cool.    

Yes, adding the wild card was a smart move but that was years ago already.   Everything that makes baseball attractive- it’s history, tradition, stats, also seems to get in the way of evolving and adapting to make the game more entertaining to fans.  

No problem with 9 innings.

Universal DH (I've not always been for it, but am now)

Tony LaRussa banned from the game

Baseball is now perfect

I am in the minority on some things to improve MLB.

I know owners want the 162 games for the $$ but I think cutting the season down to 154 or even 145 would be a good thing.  You could start the season a little later so the cold weather games aren't as brutal and you could start the postseason a little sooner. 

I am 100% in favor of the DH.  Nothing bores me more than to see a pitcher go up there attempting to bunt or flaying away and striking out.   

I am in favor of speeding the game up but only to tweak it slightly.  Figure out a way to speed up pitching changes.  I swear each pitching change last 10 minutes and sometimes you get that 3 times an inning.

I also not only want a pitching clock but I also think the batter needs to get in the box and there should be a clock for them as well.

Do:

Keep 162 games and 9 innings

Stop using the 2nd base runner in extra innings

Implement universal DH

Implement measures to speed up pitching and pitching changes, as well as batter time-outs

Severely limit mound visits

Implement hard salary cap and floor

The hard cap and floor is absolutely necessary.  It’s completely ridiculous that a team like Pittsburgh or Baltimore can spend 25M on player salaries.  It’s obvious they aren’t trying to win.  

The floor is more important than the ceiling and not sure what that would be but league average is 115M.   For 2022, there are 10 teams on the hook for 75M or less.  If you said that 90-100M is the floor, I think that’s reasonable.  The 115M average is a bit inflated by teams like the Mets and Dodgers that are over 200M.

MLB already implemented changes last year related to the pitching changes. I don't think it noticeably made the game more interesting.

From mlb.com

In an effort to reduce the number of pitching changes and, in turn, cut down the average time per game, MLB instituted a rule change that requires pitchers to either face a minimum of three batters in an appearance or pitch to the end of a half-inning, with exceptions for injuries and illnesses.

I think there are two fundamental problems baseball has - the effect of analytics and the fact it is a relic from the early 20th century.

I think analytics killed the fun of the game and I don't think there is any fixing it without radical changes. The radical changes then negatively impact the tradition and history of the game that (at least since Jackie Robinson) haven't changed that much. Once you change things, then those historical comparisons fall away.

Steroids hurt that also, because part of the magic of baseball was the numbers. 714 home runs, 755 home runs, 56 game hitting streak, 20 wins for a pitcher,

Baseball was the most interesting sport for me to talk about with my great-grandparents (who were born in the 1890s). I had detailed conversations with my great-grandmother about Ruth and Gehrig. They had almost no interest in football or basketball. Sports fans born before about the 1950s weren't into pro football or the NBA as much because those didn't become entrenched in American culture until the 60s or 70s. The biggest things for them were baseball and who the heavyweight boxing champ was. I was born in 1969 and even in the late 70s and early 80s we'd play pickup baseball games during recess or a group of us would get together in some farmer's yard and play for a few hours because it was fun. I don't think I've seen a group of kids playing a pickup baseball game anywhere I've been in the last 30 years.

With memories like that, MP, I'm sure baseball holds a special place in your heart.  I was also born in 1969.  I wonder if it matters where you grew up, but in Racine where I lived most of my life in WI, football was king.  We had a huge park by our house where kids from the hood would play pickup football.  To your point, I never saw pickup baseball even then.  Or since, for that matter.

I seldom see kids playing any games, outside, by themselves.  

Well, that's a whole 'nother topic, but yeah, agreed.  They've been raised on video games and smart phones.  When I was a kid we walked 5 miles to school, up hill, in the snow...  Seriously though, when it was good enough weather, we were told to get lost, come back for lunch, come back for dinner.

@Pikes Peak posted:

I seldom see kids playing any games, outside, by themselves.  

Only kids in our neighborhood that play outside are the "homeschooled" kids.   The rest we never see......

@MichiganPacker posted:

MLB already implemented changes last year related to the pitching changes. I don't think it noticeably made the game more interesting.

From mlb.com

In an effort to reduce the number of pitching changes and, in turn, cut down the average time per game, MLB instituted a rule change that requires pitchers to either face a minimum of three batters in an appearance or pitch to the end of a half-inning, with exceptions for injuries and illnesses.

I think there are two fundamental problems baseball has - the effect of analytics and the fact it is a relic from the early 20th century.

I think analytics killed the fun of the game and I don't think there is any fixing it without radical changes. The radical changes then negatively impact the tradition and history of the game that (at least since Jackie Robinson) haven't changed that much. Once you change things, then those historical comparisons fall away.

Steroids hurt that also, because part of the magic of baseball was the numbers. 714 home runs, 755 home runs, 56 game hitting streak, 20 wins for a pitcher,

Baseball was the most interesting sport for me to talk about with my great-grandparents (who were born in the 1890s). I had detailed conversations with my great-grandmother about Ruth and Gehrig. They had almost no interest in football or basketball. Sports fans born before about the 1950s weren't into pro football or the NBA as much because those didn't become entrenched in American culture until the 60s or 70s. The biggest things for them were baseball and who the heavyweight boxing champ was. I was born in 1969 and even in the late 70s and early 80s we'd play pickup baseball games during recess or a group of us would get together in some farmer's yard and play for a few hours because it was fun. I don't think I've seen a group of kids playing a pickup baseball game anywhere I've been in the last 30 years.

I grew up in rural eastern Wisconsin right on the lake and we were always outside no matter what time of year playing baseball, football, and basketball.  We were sports nuts and played as much as we could.  You are right you don't see that anymore and cannot remember the last time I saw kids do that.

My Grandpa was born in 1909 and we used to have long conversations about players that you mentioned.  He actually took a train overnight to see Ruth and Gehrig play.  He actually pitched semi pro in to his 40s in Wisconsin.

Baseball was way more interesting to me as a kid.  I was born in 1966 and I don't remember the Lombardi years but I do remember the terrible Packers teams.  So you can imagine our excitement when the Brewers turned it around in the early 80s so baseball was our king.

I grew up in the mid 60's-70's.We used to play pick up games in season. Summer  was softball, fall football and winter basket ball. We had our own neighborhood locker room and indoor basket ball court in our carriage barn 2nd floor. We had little league baseball but no parents watched us play. Standing out in the hot sun fighting off sweat bees!

Today every parent who thinks their kid is on the team is watching little league. Our HS put in 3 fields, lights concession stand the works. Parking lot is packed every Saturday in the summer. And if there's a girls softball tournament going on, forget it. They have police doin traffic control for that.

I grew up in the late 50’s and 60’s……played sports all the time. Even the guys who weren’t sports nuts played, what else were they to do?  Unlike today, there was little else to do.

To me the DH takes away an essential strategy of pinch hitting versus staying with a pitcher. Baseball is so much about subtle strategy...that's why I would not want to limit the shifts, I just can't believe there hasn't been a strategic 'shift' to compensate for the shift....I'm sure that is  about the sabermetrics of home run value---I hate that.

I'd like a shorter season and a salary cap. I'd like the NFL to shorten the season as well.

Ammo's point is a good point about attending a game versus watching a game., I've never been bored at a game, but can't watch an entire game on TV....

Possibly it's because I'm drinking high cost, low flavor beer and everything is better because of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMcfzTTKTaQ

@Packiderm posted:

I grew up in the mid 60's-70's.We used to play pick up games in season. Summer  was softball, fall football and winter basket ball. We had our own neighborhood locker room and indoor basket ball court in our carriage barn 2nd floor. We had little league baseball but no parents watched us play. Standing out in the hot sun fighting off sweat bees!

Today every parent who thinks their kid is on the team is watching little league. Our HS put in 3 fields, lights concession stand the works. Parking lot is packed every Saturday in the summer. And if there's a girls softball tournament going on, forget it. They have police doin traffic control for that.

My wife and I are both fans of women's college softball shortly before and through the tournament.  My wife played in college.  I'm not sure what drew me to it, but I'm guessing it's the fast pace.

Also if you want to attract younger viewers, put an end to these unwritten rules about playing the right way and respecting the game. The sport needs more personality and less robots.

@Harry Manback posted:

My wife and I are both fans of women's college softball shortly before and through the tournament.  My wife played in college.  I'm not sure what drew me to it, but I'm guessing it's the fast pace.

Bout 25 yrs. ago. Wife and I go camping with a bunch of friends at a campground. First night these folks come over to our site challenge us to a softball game the next day. Sure were out of shape and drink beer. What the hell. Next day the game starts and their pitcher is a young lady who pitched in college. I'm batting 3rd. First 2 guys up and she's just zinging them right in there. I'm watching and figure she's just firing them right in there so if I start my swing as soon as the ball leaves her hand I'll make contact if she throws a strike.

Her first pitch to me I hit it into the un-mowed field in dead center. She's pissed! Next time up I figure she going to really let it fly so I timed it a tad sooner. This time I hit it into the trees behind where I hit the first one.

I don't remember if we won or lost. That night we're having drinks around the fire and she's just sulking. finally I  said to her "Lighten up. You supplied half the power to hit it that far!"

@Pikes Peak posted:

I seldom see kids playing any games, outside, by themselves.  

I live in the suburbs. I see kids playing pick-up basketball and soccer games all the time. The baseball diamonds are always empty, except for the occasional parent working with their daughter on her softball pitching.

Younger daughter plays on 14U club team for softball.  She’s the lead off hitter.  Most times, she’s the shortest kid on the field but it doesn’t deter her from hitting and getting on base.  

One of the best teams in the area had a 13yr old pitcher last year and that kid was throwing gas.  Low 60s rising fastball.  Our team lost 2-0, but my kid got one of our 3 hits and got on 2 of 3 appearances. She should have been 3 for 3 but got rung up on a 3-2 count and it was a bad call.   After the game, their coach came over and tried to recruit her lol.   At that age, you throw that hard and can locate off speed as well you will shut down a lot of teams.

Softball is fun but both daughters also play tennis.  Tennis is a lot more stressful to watch as a parent.

@Tschmack posted:

Younger daughter plays on 14U club team for softball.  She’s the lead off hitter.  Most times, she’s the shortest kid on the field but it doesn’t deter her from hitting and getting on base.  

One of the best teams in the area had a 13yr old pitcher last year and that kid was throwing gas.  Low 60s rising fastball.  Our team lost 2-0, but my kid got one of our 3 hits and got on 2 of 3 appearances. She should have been 3 for 3 but got rung up on a 3-2 count and it was a bad call.   After the game, their coach came over and tried to recruit her lol.   At that age, you throw that hard and can locate off speed as well you will shut down a lot of teams.

Softball is fun but both daughters also play tennis.  Tennis is a lot more stressful to watch as a parent.

Our three kids ran track and cross country in high school and one did D1 in college. Two of the three were distance runners and the other was a hurdler.

The most stressful events for us to watch were the hurdles. When your kid is running the two mile or even the 800, it takes a few minutes and you don't lose the race in a split second.

The female high hurdlers take between 15 and 20 seconds to run that race in high school and if you clip one hurdle hard enough you're cooked. The 300 hurdles take a little longer (between 45 and 50 seconds), but I've seen girls with big leads wipe over the last hurdle a lot. As my daughter always said, everyone eventually runs out of oxygen in any race longer than a 200, but distance runners can almost always finish a race by jogging in. She said that whatever evil demon designed the 300 hurdles decided to put one last hurdle about 5 yards before the finish line and the fact you have to jump over it when you are out of oxygen makes it the worst race to run that exists.

Womens softball in Madison back, well let’s just say, at least 50 years ago was a blast. It was a Summer league and all the teams had bird names…….the best team were the Eagles, and all the women were from the University of WI softball team.  My lowly team was called the sparrows.    I froze when up to bat, I’d ask the coach if I could just play the field and not bat….I’d just panic when up to bat.  He said no, and that one game was my only attempt to play WOMENS softball.  But, I’d watch the Eagle women play, and their pitchers would hurl their pitches so fast, and underhand, that the casing on the ball would damn near come off.  WOW, just so fast and underhanded.  WOW……just amazing.  

Hurdles are gnarly.  I did track as well (not in college) but never had the courage to do it.  I liken that to people that love being gunners on special teams.  Our HS coach tried recruiting me to return kicks and punts and be a gunner and I was like hell no.  That was my take on hurdles!

I was a soccer goalie.

My ass never had to run or jump over anything.

I did the the 180 lows in HS.   Tried the 120 highs but couldn’t get the steps lined up properly.  The distance between the hurdles in the lows worked out perfect for my stride.  I was not necessarily fast or good but my form was perfect my coach said….he even took movies of me to show the next generation of hurdlers.

@Packiderm posted:

Bout 25 yrs. ago. Wife and I go camping with a bunch of friends at a campground. First night these folks come over to our site challenge us to a softball game the next day. Sure were out of shape and drink beer. What the hell. Next day the game starts and their pitcher is a young lady who pitched in college. I'm batting 3rd. First 2 guys up and she's just zinging them right in there. I'm watching and figure she's just firing them right in there so if I start my swing as soon as the ball leaves her hand I'll make contact if she throws a strike.

Her first pitch to me I hit it into the un-mowed field in dead center. She's pissed! Next time up I figure she going to really let it fly so I timed it a tad sooner. This time I hit it into the trees behind where I hit the first one.

I don't remember if we won or lost. That night we're having drinks around the fire and she's just sulking. finally I  said to her "Lighten up. You supplied half the power to hit it that far!"

Yeah, it's amazing how fast the college pitchers can pitch underhand.  The fact that they're a lot closer to home plate makes it every bit as tough as hitting a fastball in college.  I didn't play fastball in college, but my wife who played college softball said those underhand fast pitches came in like lightning.  And if you see it on TV, you can see the odd angels they have to deal with.

Funny, I always found a slow pitch softball way harder to hit than the hardball pitches.  Hardball was muscle memory (and a lot of practice) and you didn't have time to think.  That slow pitch softball would hang out there all nice and juicy and I couldn't help wanting to just crush it.  Too much time to think and adjust, and then I'd end up hitting a grounder to the infield, LOL.  Never did hit a home run in slow pitch softball when I played in leagues...or ever.  I marveled at some of those slow pitch softball hitters who could hit home runs almost every at bat.

@MichiganPacker posted:

Our three kids ran track and cross country in high school and one did D1 in college. Two of the three were distance runners and the other was a hurdler.

The most stressful events for us to watch were the hurdles. When your kid is running the two mile or even the 800, it takes a few minutes and you don't lose the race in a split second.

The female high hurdlers take between 15 and 20 seconds to run that race in high school and if you clip one hurdle hard enough you're cooked. The 300 hurdles take a little longer (between 45 and 50 seconds), but I've seen girls with big leads wipe over the last hurdle a lot. As my daughter always said, everyone eventually runs out of oxygen in any race longer than a 200, but distance runners can almost always finish a race by jogging in. She said that whatever evil demon designed the 300 hurdles decided to put one last hurdle about 5 yards before the finish line and the fact you have to jump over it when you are out of oxygen makes it the worst race to run that exists.

I agree with you and Tschmack, hurdles are gnarly.  I ran track in HS as a pure sprinter, and because one of our hurdle runners couldn't go at a meet, I was asked to step in.  Intermmediate, 400.  I couldn't believe the lead I had for the first 100, I was killing it!  Until I realized why the people who do actually run that race started to overtake me.  I was so winded the last few hurdles, that I just ran through them.  I was so embarrased.  I came in last, naturally.  I was never asked to sub in for hurdles after that.

@Pikes Peak posted:

I was not necessarily fast or good but my form was perfect my coach said….he even took movies of me to show the next generation of hurdlers.

You sure that's what he was using the movies for?

@Harry Manback posted:

Yeah, it's amazing how fast the college pitchers can pitch underhand.  The fact that they're a lot closer to home plate makes it every bit as tough as hitting a fastball in college.  I didn't play fastball in college, but my wife who played college softball said those underhand fast pitches came in like lightning.  And if you see it on TV, you can see the odd angels they have to deal with.

Funny, I always found a slow pitch softball way harder to hit than the hardball pitches.  Hardball was muscle memory (and a lot of practice) and you didn't have time to think.  That slow pitch softball would hang out there all nice and juicy and I couldn't help wanting to just crush it.  Too much time to think and adjust, and then I'd end up hitting a grounder to the infield, LOL.  Never did hit a home run in slow pitch softball when I played in leagues...or ever.  I marveled at some of those slow pitch softball hitters who could hit home runs almost every at bat.

I hit quite a few and missed a bunch! I remember hitting one almost 300 ft. in gym class one day. Then the following week I hit one and all I could hear is one of the other guys going nuts because it was going farther than the first one.

We had a terrible baseball team HS. We won like 2 games and the track team won the County Championship. They challenged us to a softball game. One guy talked a lot of trash. I asked him what position he was going to play. He said first base. I'm left handed so I told him to be ready to duck. I came up to bat and their pitcher threw one a little inside and I about took his head off. I ended up hitting 2 home runs, drove in 11 runs and we beat them something like 25-12.

Places like Minneapolis and Chicago and Cleveland can be absolutely miserable early in the season

Minnesota and Chicago are miserable all year round.