Skip to main content

Satori posted:

# 3 WRs are often journeymen, see Jones, James et al

In the case of Adams, I believe Henry is wrong and I'll lay out some of the reasond why I think that.

IMO, a good way to make the evaluation from the outside, is to ask yourself this question: What is it that I don't know ?

Instead of relying on speculation, innuendo and projections, we can look and see how other Packer WRs have produced with injuries. Cobb had the most drops of any WR in 25 years of Packer history, mostly because he had a torn AC joint and partially because he was pressing mentally. He said as much himself

http://archive.jsonline.com/sp...526z1-366333791.html

Here we have an example of a Packers WR with both a physical injury and a mental challenge. Cobb is also paid as a top tier guy, yet nobody is calling for him to be cut, none of the fans are ripping on him and we don't have anybody suggesting he has the yips.

Another example is Jordy Nelson in the Super Bowl. Jordy had some killer drops that may have derailed a couple of drives. He also had a killer drop in the end zone in the 4th quarter that would have sealed the game. Instead GB had to settle for a FG and then play defense for another Steelers drive.

We later found out that Jordy had a burst bursa sac in his knee and couldn't push off. That's why he dropped the end zone pass that hit him in the hands, a play he makes 9 times out of 10. And the pressure of the SB perhaps had him mentally pressing too, causing him to drop another pass that hit him square in the hands.  Driver talked about how he implored Jordy to just relax and make the same plays he always did.

Yet, nobody assails Jordy for his drops or suggests he has the yips or that he sucked in any way shape or form. Nelson has certainly proven it over a longer period of time, but Jordy struggled in years 1-3, including some untimely fumbles. We can do the same exercise with James Jones and his killer drops, although I don't know if he had any underlying injury. These guys are the elite of the elite facing the elite of the elite. Even operating at 100% its a huge challenge

Adams-ripping is merely an example of the biases we all have in how we treat different people differently. Adams proved himself in several important games in 2014, both the Pats game in November and the playoff game vs Dallas as well as the fake spike catch with time running out at Miami

He will be fine in 2016.

We can also note how the HC and QB1 reacted to Adams performance in 2015.  They knew about the undisclosed MCL in addition to the ankle injury. They knew that Adams was operating on bad wheels and facing # 1 DBs and they were OK with it because they knew things we aren't privy to.

They knew he was half-assing it on some routes and they were OK with it because they had more info than we do. Rodgers is uber-anal about preparation and effort - often refusing to throw to guys who aren't putting in the work or being in the right spot. Yet he continued to throw to Davante and continued to support him, including his comment calling Davante "Mr. January" after his performance vs Washington in the playoffs. If Rodgers is cool with Adams, then so am I.

I'd like to think I don't really give a rats ass whether or not Henry and the other detractors change their tune on Adams, but I'm not certain. I merely pointed it out as an example of what happens when we make immutable conclusions based on limited info and then bolster those conclusions with the vagaries of our own biases. Got six minutes ? Enjoy it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kGymW5Qcug

Real simple.  Every other WR sophomore slump also showed some production.  Some glimmer of future talent.  We saw nothing from Adams, zero.  It was so completely zero it seemingly negated any previous glimmers.  He **** the bed and hard and now we hear he's having problems with separation in TC?  Remember all world Adams in TC last year?  

Slumps and learning curves are legitimate but there's something a bit bigger here.  If Adams was so hampered by injury and coaching to the degree of what he showed on the field it points to how glaring the move to hand the offense to Clements was.  If that's the approach we're going to take, which is valid, you have the maturation of a series of really bad decisions and player reactions if that's the case.

In all this "bashing" Adams we need to look at the dip**** that's becoming a legend on a couple of jump balls.  The point of all this is Adam's soft ass performance, Janis the Dumb status and the fact the rest of our "high powered" offense went right in the ****ter because of two guys, Jordy and Clements.  If Adams and the other receivers need that much handholding then revisiting the decisions that lead to BooBoo having such a piss poor season are in order.  

Quite frankly, it's nothing but a gut feeling but MM needs to be looking in the mirror as much as Adams does.  

Janis looks in the mirror and thinks another person is staring at him.  I wonder if a coach on the sidelines had a laser pointer he'd run the right routes.

Last edited by Henry

You give no weight to the fact that defenses play you differently when they 1) know you're injured and 2) know your team can't beat them deep. Suddenly Safeties cheat up and CBs are in your face a lot more. It's not an excuse, it's a reality. No one is saying Adams didn't have a poor season, but teams won't play GB the same when the deep threat returns and everyone is healthy. Suddenly that in-your-face style of DB play gives way to bend-don't-break style. That's how ALL WRs get open by the way, it's not some schitty aspect of this offense. The guys who can beat defenses regardless of how they're being attacked are named Calvin Johnson. Every other WR is susceptible to getting shut down when defenses don't respect the deep ball and they're especially susceptible when their leg(s) are messed up...as evidenced by the fact that a normally Pro Bowl player, Randall Cobb, was also mostly ineffective, couldn't get open, and suffered with drops. It's a bad year, not a career defining year for Adams. He wasn't going to shine like a star when the entire offense is dysfunctional from top to bottom, if you expected him to then that's on you for being unrealistic. He has the trust of coaches and players, that should be enough. 

titmfatied posted:

 

 

VV: On the contrary, most of our detailed stats and film study show that Rodgers was still very good last year, but his best efforts were wasted by the clown show going on around him.

Meanwhile, Rodgers' offensive line failed him too, as he was pressured on 30 percent of his dropbacks, seventh-highest in the league. 

 

It's kind of an all of the above thing to me. Rodgers did struggle. But in the hands of a lesser QB, it was 1999 all over again. That's what sets him apart...

Grave Digger posted:

You give no weight to the fact that defenses play you differently when they 1) know you're injured and 2) know your team can't beat them deep. Suddenly Safeties cheat up and CBs are in your face a lot more. It's not an excuse, it's a reality. No one is saying Adams didn't have a poor season, but teams won't play GB the same when the deep threat returns and everyone is healthy. Suddenly that in-your-face style of DB play gives way to bend-don't-break style. That's how ALL WRs get open by the way, it's not some schitty aspect of this offense. The guys who can beat defenses regardless of how they're being attacked are named Calvin Johnson. Every other WR is susceptible to getting shut down when defenses don't respect the deep ball and they're especially susceptible when their leg(s) are messed up...as evidenced by the fact that a normally Pro Bowl player, Randall Cobb, was also mostly ineffective, couldn't get open, and suffered with drops. It's a bad year, not a career defining year for Adams. He wasn't going to shine like a star when the entire offense is dysfunctional from top to bottom, if you expected him to then that's on you for being unrealistic. He has the trust of coaches and players, that should be enough. 

Except we're hearing the same thing out of TC for Adams.  No separation?  Really?  Adams was the guy that was supposed to step up.  Instead he did a faceplant.  So yeah, it may very well be career defining.

Truly hope I'm wrong but these "oh well next time" scenarios are becoming more frequent with this team.

Last edited by Henry

Except we're hearing the same thing out of TC for Adams.

This is fun.







And, from the APC guys (link):

Davante Adams had a nice night of practice, making a highlight-reel one-handed catch along the sideline and adjusting to make a 50-yard catch over Quinten Rollins on a deep pass from Aaron Rodgers. He also brought in a deep ball early in practice on a third-and-one pass from Rodgers, elevating over Sam Shields for the reception.

ESPN's Rob Demovsky said weeks ago that he expects Adams to start as the team's No. 3 wide receiver. Adams had 50 receptions for 483 yards and one score last season. He had 38 receptions for 446 yards and three touchdowns in 2014.

michiganjoe posted:

Nowhere in the article is the numerous failings of MM and the coaching staff mentioned. A complete failure to adequately adjust to the loss of Jordy and MM's handling of the LT position due to Bak's injury was abysmal.

Between the injury and the poor coaching I'm inclined to give Adams a bit of a pass on his poor year. He starts with a clean slate this year and it's time for him to perform. 

I'm fine with that as long as it doesn't take another 16 weeks to make an adjustment.  If he is still struggling by week 6 or so, sit the kid and give someone else a chance. 

That was my gripe last year.  Adams wasn't playing well, injury releated or not, and the coaching staff refused to try an alternative.  Just kept putting their hand on the same hot stove. 

When Aaron Nagler is a "legit" reporter it doesn't give me much confidence that the other guys should be the final authority on talent evaluation. Let's see how he performs in games before we say that he's failing in 2016. 

With regard to the Davante debate, I can settle it rather succinctly:

Joining me on my side are Aaron Rodgers, Mike McCarthy and the esteemed H5

( Ted too, but he ain't talkin)

 

Joining Henry is.... Chief Old Stool

There ain't nuthin you can say that will unshackle the Yoke of Shame yer wearing for that one, smarty pants.  

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Satori posted:

With regard to the Davante debate, I can settle it rather succinctly:

Joining me on my side are Aaron Rodgers, Mike McCarthy and the esteemed H5

( Ted too, but he ain't talkin)

 

Joining Henry is.... Chief Old Stool

There ain't nuthin you can say that will unshackle the Yoke of Shame yer wearing for that one, smarty pants.  

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Yeah but I didn't have any pride to begin with.  

Grave Digger posted:

When Aaron Nagler is a "legit" reporter it doesn't give me much confidence that the other guys should be the final authority on talent evaluation. Let's see how he performs in games before we say that he's failing in 2016. 

Good point.

High ankle sprains are supposed to be a real bitch.  There is so much speculation here and I just want to speculate on the optimum side of things.

Maybe it never healed last year.  Maybe he was called upon to play prematurely due to how depleted the Pack was.  Maybe that exacerbated the injury and even prevented the ankle from adequately healing.

I think Adams is an excellent route runner.  I know his talent is not being a speed demon.  I also know that when a receiver corps is depleted, everyone is impacted.

So, with my rose colored glasses, I hope my speculation is accurate, he is fine now and as a #3, he is quite effective.

He does have to catch the damn ball though.  Gotta have the hands.  Especially if speed is not part of your arsenal.

Injuries plagued the offense last year.  It isn't just one WRs fault. 

Every starting OL missed at least one game with injury.  Some played injured and were less effective than normal.  Then the backups sucked (including Barclay who was probably still healing from the previous seasons ACL injury - but is doing much better this year)  except for Tretter.  That and 3 starters become FAs at season end is why I think TT drafted 2 OL.  So maybe some better production could have helped AR. 

Lacy came into camp out of shape and proceeded to go down with his own injury.  He was fairly ineffective for most of the year.  The combination of the OL and hurt/out of shape RB means teams can play the pass while letting the defensive front and maybe a couple LBs stopping the running game. 

At TE, Andrew Quarless got injured and out for the year.  And while RR was apparently healthy all year, having Quarless to block would have helped some.  Not to mention providing maybe a better receiver than RR. 

Now let's address the WR position.  Cobb and Adams were injured early in game two of the season.  Adams tried to play through it for a while but was then shut down for a while.  James Jones was effective to a point, but he mentioned a hip and knee (at different times) issue.  For a guy who has marginal speed when healthy, he was now coverable.  We all know Nelson was out for the year at the start of the season.  Ty Montgomery was injured in game 4 and after a few weeks was placed on IR.  So Adams gets healed so he plays well vs Washington in the first playoff game.  But then injures his knee in practice and is out.  By the time the Packers get to the divisional playoff round only Cobb, Janis, and Abby are left.  Then Cobbs already sore shoulder gets injured, and then it is only Janis and Abby.  Abby has 4 receptions for 59 yards (I believe).  And Janis has 7 receptions for 145 yards and 2 TDs.  Granted one was the often dismissed hail mary.  He would have had 8 catches for not a lot more yards (meaning it was a shorter pass) and 3 TDs, but Janis cut to sidelines at a deeper angle than where the ball went.  That would be route thing we all talk about on national TV for all to see.  He did not have much time with AR before that game.  But I would say not bad for a guy from a D2 school where the play book was probably no more than a sheet of paper. 

So, my point is laying this all at Adams feet is ridiculous.  The offensive troubles were a team effort - injury and performance wise.  And did I mention Clements play calling yet?  I think with some health, we will be magically healed this year.  But it won't be a mystery to me why. 

Coaching and motivating are two different issues.  I agree on the coaching....some players might need to be taught a different method or strategy to get the job in order to compensate any physical liability.  But, being motivated to get the job done shouldn't have to be the job of a position coach.  

OK, maybe the head coach needs to be more assertive on the motivation side - for some players, but my post was referring more to the job of a position coach (or coordinator) trying to get the most out of a player.

Last edited by SanDiegoPackFan
Ghost of Lambeau posted:

 

So, my point is laying this all at Adams feet is ridiculous.  

Nobody is laying 2015 on Adams.  It is more of "let's not hold onto bums".    Adams will get his shot at redemption this year but if he doesn't rack up something more than poor to mediocre numbers it's time to move on.  And I would say that of every player in the WR corp.  They stunk.

Last edited by Henry
Henry posted:
Ghost of Lambeau posted:

 

So, my point is laying this all at Adams feet is ridiculous.  

Nobody is laying 2015 on Adams.  It is more of "let's not hold onto bums".    Adams will get his shot at redemption this year but if he doesn't rack up something more than poor to mediocre numbers it's time to move on.  And I would say that of every player in the WR corp.  They stunk.

I understand what you're saying regarding Adams stepping it up, I think we all want that.  But I don't think you can move on from a player after just 3 years.  

I know it's not apples to apples, but in Jordy Nelson's 3rd year, he had 45 receptions for 582 yards and 2 touchdowns.  

 In Adams' 2nd year, he had similar numbers (50/483/1).  

It would have been a shame if we moved on from Nelson after his 3rd year of sub-par performance.  He turned it around in his 4th year, where he started lighting it up.

JMO.

Henry posted:
Ghost of Lambeau posted:

 

So, my point is laying this all at Adams feet is ridiculous.  

Nobody is laying 2015 on Adams.  It is more of "let's not hold onto bums".    Adams will get his shot at redemption this year but if he doesn't rack up something more than poor to mediocre numbers it's time to move on.  And I would say that of every player in the WR corp.  They stunk.

Point well taken.  But all I am saying "stunking" was team thing, not just a WR thing.  It is not lost on me that Adams maybe can not be effective with an injury.  Since being at least a little dinged up is a way of life in the NFL, it may be a short career for him if that is the case.  But it may also be that with a healthier cast around him he may be much better.  Either way we will find out. 

Thunderbird posted:
 But I don't think you can move on from a player after just 3 years.  
 

Yes, you really can.  That's the issue.  Know when to cut bait on mediocre coaches, players, etc.  

Last edited by Henry

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×