Packers vs. Ravens

I think it's interesting to look at the Ravens team that was able to beat the 49ers and win the Super Bowl, and see how they were built. It's widely accepted we lost to the 49ers because we're not strong enough in the trenches -- offensive line and defensive front seven. Consider the Ravens' make-up there:

OL: Made up of a late #1 pick (Oher), a 2nd round rookie (Osemele), a 3rd rounder (Yanda), and two Vikings castoffs that were signed off the street and are old (OT McKinnie -33 and C Birk - 36).

DL: Former #1 pick Ngata a stud at DE (who missed almost the whole 2nd half of last night's game). 2nd rounder Cody at NT OK. Others: 5th rounders McPhee and Jones, 34-year old journeyman NT Kemoeatu, college free agent Hall.

LB: OLB Suggs another former #1 pick and excellent player. But ILB Ray Lewis at 37 is a shell of his former self. Former #2 pick Kruger very good OLB, former #2 OLB Upshaw doing OK. ILB Ellerbee a college free agent from '09. 36-year old ILB Ayanbadejo another well-traveled journeyman.

Is a healthy Packers team not every bit as talented as the Ravens in the OL, DL and at LB? I would think our QB and receivers would be considered a bit better, making up for Ravens' advantage at RB. And I think our secondary and special teams are comparable.

Just reinforces for me that while we have areas we want to strengthen, a relatively healthy Packers team could have gone toe-to-toe with this 49ers team, and will next year -- if we can stay healthy.

http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchart/BAL

2/4/132:28 PM

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

FreeSafetyI wonder what the poor people are doing?

The Packers were not ready to defend the option play in SF. You could argue that Perry and Bishop would have shut it down I guess.

Ravens had a defender dedicated to hitting Kaepernick on every option play. And they let him know they had a defender dedicated to hitting him on every option play. He gave the ball to the RB for the dive and the interior run defense of the Ravens tackled the RB.

2/4/132:35 PM

Grave DiggerMember

I don't think the Packers knew what to expect from the 49ers and Kaepernick. Not an excuse, I think it's the facts. They weren't ready for the option. The Ravens had the benefit of film that the Packers didn't.

The Ravens didn't let the 49ers get in rhythm at all and I think that threw Kaepernick off. He's a young player, they need to have the rhythm and momentum to get some confidence in a big game. The Ravens never let him have that and I think you saw a lot of uncertainty from him in the passing game. The Packers didn't do that at all. He threw when he wanted, ran when he wanted, and handed off when he wanted. They didn't force him to do anything that got him out of his comfort zone.

2/4/132:44 PM

HerschelMember

So sschumer you're saying Ozzie Newsome is just a better drafter than TT?

2/4/132:44 PM

johnnie grayMember

ravens won becuase of +2 in turnovers and a 108-yard kickoff return. ravens barely slowed down the niners in the second half until the final series in the red zone. 49ers are more talented than packers or the ravens right now. the most talented team does not always win.

2/4/132:45 PM

YATittleMember

quote:
Ravens had a defender dedicated to hitting Kaepernick on every option play. And they let him know they had a defender dedicated to hitting him on every option play. He gave the ball to the RB for the dive and the interior run defense of the Ravens tackled the RB.

This. I saw that, including one play where CK looked at the ref with his arms out, protesting.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Defenders hitting those QBs will limit that offensive trend right quick.

2/4/133:11 PM

Boston JimMember

quote:
Originally posted by Herschel:
So sschumer you're saying Ozzie Newsome is just a better drafter than TT?

I don't know about better because TT has been real good, but Ozzie Newsome has done a great job for the Ravens.

2/4/133:24 PM

TdogProspective Member

quote:
Defenders hitting those QBs will limit that offensive trend right quick.

until Badell steps in and makes it illegal. player safety dontcha know.

2/4/133:24 PM

FloridarobMember

rules should be changed. If a QB is in the Pistol formation then they should be fair game to be hit as a running back. I loved seeing the Ravens hit Kapeanich after he handed off last night and him acting like it was unfair. The rules should been modified. If you are in hte Pistol Formation then hit the QB all night long. Lets see how long that gimmick Johnny High School offense last then.

2/4/133:25 PM

StevieMember

I tend to agree that a healthy Packers team would have shown up better against the Niners. HOWEVER, the Packers need a nasty 'tude and I don't know if they will get that from Capers. I also believe that the Packers need three defensive pieces to the puzzle: a mean SOB of a DL, ditto for an OLB and a S who loves to knock the snot out of people.

Add two big, mean SOB offensive linemen a running back in the mold of John Brockington and a BIG WR, and then we'll be winning Super Bowls year after year.

2/4/133:41 PM

michiganjoeMember

Ravens gave up the most yardage ever for a SB winner, but when it mattered they stepped up. Niners had six red zone trips and only got into the EZ twice. The QB is a RB when he leaves the pocket and I didn't see any questionable hits.

2/4/133:45 PM

PackdogMember

Ravens offense and ST won the super bowl. Their Defense was barely adequate.

2/4/134:00 PM

FreeSafetyI wonder what the poor people are doing?

quote:
Their Defense was barely adequate.

Disagree.

Ravens defense stopped the option plays that killed the Packers.

They also kept a good SF offense out of the EZ on several drives.

Including 1st and goal from the five at the end of the game.

2/4/134:06 PM

chickenboyTic Toc

quote:
Originally posted by Boston Jim:
I don't know about better because TT has been real good, but Ozzie Newsome has done a great job for the Ravens.

Ozzie has two rings, TT has one. I also think Newsome does a great job drafting well along with sprinkling in free agents. It doesn't have to be one or the other. The choice of no name Harbaugh (much like M3) was also a stroke of genius.

2/4/135:13 PM

H5Keyboard Warrior, troll hunter

Thompson has two rings.

2/4/136:40 PM

PackLandVAMember

quote:
Originally posted by Grave Digger:
The Ravens had the benefit of film that the Packers didn't.

Packers didn't have 8 weeks of film on Kaepernick?? Did he and the Niners suddenly change their offensive philosophy for the SB??

2/4/137:19 PM

TschmackMember

I love how none of this analysis includes Ray Rice (top 5 back) or Torrey Smith (perhaps one of the best deep threats in the league) or Boldin (clutch money possession WR) or Pitta (one of the most underrated TEs in the league)

Baltimore basically did what they wanted against the Niners and that does not compare well to what GB did twice against SF offensively.

2/4/137:43 PM

PackLandVAMember

I think both games were more about what the SF offense did against the Packer D than what the O did against the Niner D.

2/4/137:48 PM

Grave DiggerMember

quote:
Originally posted by PackLandVA:
Packers didn't have 8 weeks of film on Kaepernick?? Did he and the Niners suddenly change their offensive philosophy for the SB??

The 49ers saved a lot of stuff for the Packer game. They used some read-option stuff during the season, but they didn't use all they had. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Kaepernick had also only faced 1 3-4 defense before the Packer game also, so there wasn't a ton of film on how the 49ers wanted to attack that defense. If you don't think attacking a 34 vs. a 43 is different, you're wrong. The Ravens have a hybrid 34/43 so they had the benefit of all the film plus the packages, personnel groupings, plays, and formations the 49ers had used during the playoffs. That's a huge advantage that the Packers simply didn't have. I think the fact that the players and coaches from the Packers all seemed to say that they weren't prepared for what the 49ers did speaks to that fact.

2/5/138:18 AM

chickenboyTic Toc

quote:
Originally posted by Hungry5:
Thompson has two rings.

Yes. If you include his one as a scout under Wolf. As the main person (GM), only one\.

2/5/138:22 AM

FreeSafetyI wonder what the poor people are doing?

Even my HS coach had simple rules for defending against a team that ran some option plays. One guy is responsible for hitting the QB every time. Another guy is responsible for the RB. Every time.

In SF, it was clear as day when the option plays were coming just by looking at the formation. Waldon and CMIII crashed in on the dive and then somebody, ILB or safety, should be coming down on the outside to hit the QB. I never saw that design work very well.

You don't need weeks and weeks of film to come up with a better defensive scheme than the Packers apparently had that day.

2/5/138:27 AM

Grave DiggerMember

If they were defending against a HS QB then they probably wouldn't. It's a little more complicated when the guy can run like a RB, is fast like a WR, is big like a TE, and can throw like a QB. I don't care how simple the concept is, in the NFL you need film. If it were as simple as just hitting the QB every play, the option would be dead. You need to know tendencies and that's what film gives you. If you haven't researched your opponent, then all you're doing is reading and reacting rather than attacking. That's what the Packers did because the things Kaepernick was doing, wasn't on the film they watched. Jim Harbaugh and Roman played their hand well, Capers did the best he could do with the information and personnel he had.

2/5/138:50 AM

FreeSafetyI wonder what the poor people are doing?

I would agree with you if the plays that beat the Packers were some kind of exotic trickery that we'd never seen before.

But it wasn't. It was simple read option which the 49ers had run before with CK.

The Packer defense has problems with outside containment. The reason we lost up in Minneapolis is because we gave up the outside to Peterson several times for big runs.

2/5/139:00 AM

Grave DiggerMember

But that's not Capers fault. If none of his OLBs execute, what is he supposed to do. People say "HE SHOULD HAVE ADJUSTED", but what is the adjustment for covering up two poor performing OLBs and two poor performing ILBs? That's more than 1/3 of your defense that aren't doing their jobs. And their replacements are guys like Frank Zombo, Dezman Moses, Jamari Lattimore, etc. There's no solution to that problem for the DC. Motivation is the only hope. Motivating the players to use their brains and do their jobs.

2/5/139:04 AM

titmfatiedNo Code

quote:
Originally posted by PackLandVA:
I think both games were more about what the SF offense did against the Packer D than what the O did against the Niner D.

They did bale on the run in the playoff game. Was working well, too.

2/5/139:07 AM

titmfatiedNo Code

quote:
Frank Zombo

He wasn't even activated so they could have Driver suit up. Not that I think he would have been much help.

2/5/139:11 AM

DH13Member

Comparing the read-option SF runs with CK to the option HS teams run is like comparing anything else about a HS team to anything else about a pro team. There are really only two branches off of any HS option play - QB run or QB pitch to RB. Commiting 2 defenders to those 2 players doesn't doom the rest of the D. On top of the real threat of what Gore can do and what CK can do as a runner, with CK there is a real threat of the pass also. The D needs to commit very early in that process to limit the success of whatever play they actually run. But with the read-option, too many defenders (even if that is 2 or 3) have to wait that split second to see what happens at the "mesh point" of the play before overcommiting or wrongly committing. That split second is all a guy like Gore or CK need to make the play successful (5+ yards min.). And when it came to Walden, they didn't even need that. The NFL is not just a game of inches, it's a game of milliseconds as well.

There is a really good clip from a JS article in another thread that explains the specific roles of each player much better than I could. It's a great read.

2/5/139:18 AM

FreeSafetyI wonder what the poor people are doing?

quote:
Originally posted by DH13:
The D needs to commit very early in that process to limit the success of whatever play they actually run. But with the read-option, too many defenders (even if that is 2 or 3) have to wait that split second to see what happens at the "mesh point" of the play before overcommiting or wrongly committing.

This was my point. When defending the option you have to have certain players who DO NOT wait to see what happens at the mesh point. They attack their responsibilities even if that player doesn't the ball. Just like Waldon was attacking the RB when the QB had the ball.

I am saying when the QB is keeping the ball and running to the outside which is wide open, you then correct that OLB and commit him to attacking the QB on every option play. He doesn't have to wait a split second, he doesn't need to find the ball, he needs to attack the QB. Every time.

I wasn't saying defending the 49ers is the same as defending a HS team. I am saying the simple principle of committing the correct defender to the QB on option plays and getting that player to follow instructions is something I'd expect of a HS coaching staff.

2/5/139:48 AM

RatPackMember

Agreed FS. And after while when the QB gets busted up he likely doesn't do as many fist pumps in the end zone. Best way to help the OC on the other side go away from option offense.

2/5/139:54 AM

FLPACKERMember

quote:
Originally posted by FreeSafety:
quote:
Originally posted by DH13:
The D needs to commit very early in that process to limit the success of whatever play they actually run. But with the read-option, too many defenders (even if that is 2 or 3) have to wait that split second to see what happens at the "mesh point" of the play before overcommiting or wrongly committing.

This was my point. When defending the option you have to have certain players who DO NOT wait to see what happens at the mesh point. They attack their responsibilities even if that player doesn't the ball. Just like Waldon was attacking the RB when the QB had the ball.

I am saying when the QB is keeping the ball and running to the outside which is wide open, you then correct that OLB and commit him to attacking the QB on every option play. He doesn't have to wait a split second, he doesn't need to find the ball, he needs to attack the QB. Every time.

I wasn't saying defending the 49ers is the same as defending a HS team. I am saying the simple principle of committing the correct defender to the QB on option plays and getting that player to follow instructions is something I'd expect of a HS coaching staff.

...exactly. The Ravens forced Kaepernick to hand off. Gore got the majority of his yards after Ngata went out of the game. However seeing that our Dline got manhandled by the 49ers oline, Gore may have had 200+ yards vs. us if we had employed the same strategy.

2/5/1310:11 AM

PackerRussDo I amuse you?!

quote:
Originally posted by RatPack:
Agreed FS. And after while when the QB gets busted up he likely doesn't do as many fist pumps in the end zone. Best way to help the OC on the other side go away from option offense.

CK got hit quite a bit in the SB after he handed off. It's been said in other threads, that one way to stop the Pistol/read-option is to hit the QB every play. We'll see how that pans out next year?

2/5/1310:14 AM

trumpMember

quote:
Originally posted by YATittle:
quote:
Ravens had a defender dedicated to hitting Kaepernick on every option play. And they let him know they had a defender dedicated to hitting him on every option play. He gave the ball to the RB for the dive and the interior run defense of the Ravens tackled the RB.

This. I saw that, including one play where CK looked at the ref with his arms out, protesting.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Defenders hitting those QBs will limit that offensive trend right quick.

Agreed.

And lets not BullSh?t ourselves here ... they had Suggs on 1 side, Kruger on the other Ngata in the middle in the 1st half, Ed Reed in the middle in the secondary and an aging Killer Lewis at MLB.
The only guy that matches that 5 from the Pack at each position is CMIII ... and we saw what happens when you lose 1 of the 5 in the 2nd half.

2/5/1310:27 AM

Johnny BoyMember

So they have 3 firsts and 3 seconds on D?

2/5/1310:30 AM

trumpMember

Bottom Line:

The Defense needs talent added at LB and Oline yet.

2/5/1310:33 AM

titmfatiedNo Code

quote:
San Francisco’s complex offense is about far more than a running quarterback
yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner

...when you talk with people in the NFL about what makes San Francisco's offense really go, it's all about the most multiple run game people have seen in a very long time. Under head coach Jim Harbaugh, offensive coordinator Greg Roman, and offensive line coach Mike Solari, the 49ers present opposing defenses with a dizzying array of options, predetermined to make any defensive guess the wrong one.

...the ways in which the 49ers put it together are very different and quite befuddling, even to NFL defenses that are primed to stop just about anything.

...Mark Schlereth...told me this week that the real problem with defending what the 49ers do is that you never really know what to key on. Defenses live and die with their ability to read keys and trust what they see, and the 49ers use that to their own advantage.

...The 49ers are much more of a trap/counter/power team. And when you run that, you're going to double-team on the front side, and you're running a guard or fullback or somebody over there as a trap guy.

This poses serious issues for any linebacker, because when you're a linebacker standing over a left guard gap and reading the blocking, you expect to come up and fill if you see a trap or a counter. Zone slides off the read-option, where most or all of the blockers are traveling one way, make easier reads. What the 49ers do -- and this is really Greg Roman's baby -- is to show the same types of blocking concepts for several different types of run packages -- including the ones in which Kaepernick takes off.

"As a defensive lineman, you've been taught your whole career that when that trap comes at you, you trap the trapper and constrict that hole," Schlereth said. "But now, you can't be aggressive on that. Because if they run the exact same blocking scheme, but run read-option out of it, and you go to trap the trapper, Kaepernick will run around the edge for 60 or 80 yards, like he did against Green Bay. It's really difficult to defend, especially when you're playing San Francisco, because everything you've ever been taught about how to defend power and counter goes out the window. From a personnel and formation and execution standpoint, it makes it really tough -- it all looks identical. You don't know if it's read, or trap, or power. It all looks the same, but it's completely different.

"San Francisco is a power/counter/trap team with Frank Gore, and they've augmented that with their zone option, and Kaepernick on the outside," Billick told me on Wednesday. "They've stayed true to their personality. But this game has never changed -- it's about numbers and angles. I want to get more blockers at the point of attack than you have tacklers. If I can't get a numerical superiority, I want to get an angle superiority. In my one-on-one, I have a better angle to do my job on you than you do on me. part of that is to get defenders to pause. If you can get NaVorro Bowman or Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis to hesitate ... at this level? You're out of the gate. The momentary pause of 'What are they doing?' -- that's what all the misdirection is. I heard Greg Roman talking about how much of their game-planning is spent on disguising and misdirection. How can they play their basic game and still hide their intent?"

Ray Lewis said this week that a lot of the teams playing against San Francisco's option and run game packages just don't communicate well enough, leading me to believe that the Ravens have seen something on tape they can use to counter it. continue

2/5/1310:37 AM

PackdogMember

quote:
Originally posted by FreeSafety:
quote:
Raven's offense and special teams won the super bowl. Their Defense was barely adequate.

Disagree.

Ravens defense stopped the option plays that killed the Packers.

They also kept a good SF offense out of the EZ on several drives.

Including 1st and goal from the five at the end of The game

Yes adequate. The ravens defense definately had some stops and was better than the packers pathetic defense, but the Ravens defense gave up 31 points. Would have probably been more if not for the Raven offense going on time consuming drives.

My main point was that the Raven offense and special teams won this game. The defense was adequate.

2/5/1310:57 AM

DH13Member

quote:
If you can get NaVorro Bowman or Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis to hesitate ... at this level? You're out of the gate. The momentary pause of 'What are they doing?' -- that's what all the misdirection is. I heard Greg Roman talking about how much of their game-planning is spent on disguising and misdirection. How can they play their basic game and still hide their intent?"

And this is what I was trying to get at with the way SF runs the read-option with CK. It's not a simple option concept, or if it is , it's with a much more variable and unpredictable foundation. Simply committing an OLB doesn't solve the puzzle, especially if your OLB (Walden) is a puzzle himself. And especially if what you have around him is 2nd and 3rd string LB's, guys who's ability to cover sideline to sideline ain't baking any cookies, and don't sift through the wash well.

2/5/1311:01 AM

trumpMember

quote:
Originally posted by trump:
Bottom Line:

The Defense needs talent added at LB and Oline yet.

I meant Dline but you might as well tack on Oline too ...

2/5/1311:29 AM

trumpMember

quote:
Originally posted by DH13:
quote:
If you can get NaVorro Bowman or Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis to hesitate ... at this level? You're out of the gate. The momentary pause of 'What are they doing?' -- that's what all the misdirection is. I heard Greg Roman talking about how much of their game-planning is spent on disguising and misdirection. How can they play their basic game and still hide their intent?"

And this is what I was trying to get at with the way SF runs the read-option with CK. It's not a simple option concept, or if it is , it's with a much more variable and unpredictable foundation. Simply committing an OLB doesn't solve the puzzle, especially if your OLB (Walden) is a puzzle himself. And especially if what you have around him is 2nd and 3rd string LB's, guys who's ability to cover sideline to sideline ain't baking any cookies, and don't sift through the wash well.

IMO, committing the OLB is the solution ... but agreed you have to have the guys to make plays and then make the play at the time. I think Perry just might be a pretty good X factor here if he is healthy as long as we have ILB's and 2 safeties to take his coverage pressure off of him.

2/5/1311:40 AM

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