Pistol Offense-Fad or here to stay

quote:

Originally posted by Pikes Peak:
I'm waiting for the D co-ordinators to figure out a way to consistantly stop the Patriots O. Whats it been, 13 yrs?

That statement is void of any knowledge of that offense's evolution. Belichick is very good at adjusting his offense to fit his players and at throwing new wrinkles at opposing D's. He currently has an offense based around two excellent TE's which includes a very decent running game and of course Brady throwing it where he needs to. It's changed a bit since Gronk has been down but it is still quite different from what it was when Moss was there and the aerial circus set a scoring record. And that was different from their super bowl years. BB is constantly evolving that offense.

One of the last plays before the half, I think the Pack rushed like 6 guys. You'd think there would be no way that Kaepernick would escape that, but surprisingly enough, LeMichael James put Clay Matthews on the ground and left a gigantic hole that Kaepernick easily ran through.

Normally, it's Clay Matthews putting the other guy on the ground, but on Saturday Night he just didn't have it like he normally does. I don't know if he was exhausted or what, but outside of a couple of nice stops in the backfield, he was just as poor as anyone out there. To see him get easily put on the ground by a smaller RB just sort of summed up how that night went. 9 times out of 10 Matthews destroys that RB trying to block him, but for whatever reason it just wasn't happening that night.

The biggest reason it works in College and will not work in the Pros comes down to money. You're not paying college QBs (okay I'm a bit naive). You only have a QB for 2 maybe 3 years and you're grooming a successor that can step in to take his place if he goes down...which happens in college just like in the Pros..(RG III is a prime example). The difference of course is in the NFL you are going to have to squander salary cap space and put forth big money to keep these guys....You don't have to be a psychologist or an accountant to know that the day after San Fran's last game--the first words out of Kaepernick's mouth will be 'now I'm gonna get paid'...So you already got one QB making 8 million a year---you are going to have to alter your team to give this kid the money he wants and what if he gets hurt in game 3 of the pre season--or game 2 of the season? Sure all QBs can get hurt, but when you're running in open field your chances of injury are increased by a whole bunch. The biggest advantage Kaepernick has-is he is playing on the best team in the NFL---but that means of course--you already have cap issues to contend with----- now throw in this guy.

Like so many things in life, Money stops this happiness.

Another shot at Kaepernick---and I've only seen him play twice, so it might be just my sour grapes talking--but for all his size and speed...he sure doesn't seem big on contact---His tackling attempt on little bitty Sam Shields was laughable--he looked like a place kicker...His one contact was with Burnett and he spouts off like he's just won a prize fight..He slides or gets out of bounds at the first hint of trouble---Of course that is exactly the right thing to do---but you don't get to play against AJ Hawk, Brad Jones, CJ Wilson, MD Jennings and Tramon Williams every day--I bet if he takes a few licks--he will stay in the pocket a lot more.....like a conventional QB.

One way to beat the Pistol is to blitz. From an article describing how Norte Dame beat Kaepernick and Nevada in 2009.

" The Irish however had two or more men unblocked at the line of scrimmage and it caused havoc for the pistol. The Notre Dame defenders came from everywhere — they blitzed linebackers, safeties, corners and every combination thereof.

They blitzed so often that NBC announcers Tom Hammond and Pat Haden began to have real fun with it, and Kaepernick and company were completely stymied.

....

The way Notre Dame shut down Nevada was to create confusion for the offensive line and bring more men than they could block with every kind of blitz from every direction.

In essence, what they accomplished is what BYU did to Washington, make the quarterback beat you with his arm rather than his feet. Even though Kaepernick is more accurate this season, that accuracy comes off the flow of their success in the run game."

quote:

Originally posted by Johnson:

Another shot at Kaepernick---and I've only seen him play twice, so it might be just my sour grapes talking--.

Yup.....he was good, very good.

Not sure I would use Notre Dame as the reason why they shut down Kaepernick at Nevada but I would guess they had better players.

In college it's all about talent. Alabama is better than 90% of the teams they play because the get the best players. That's probably why Chip Kelly stayed at Oregon. The talent gap in the pros closes big time.

Indiana has tried to run the pistol offense and they have sucked. Anyone wonder why?

I'm telling the end or OLB responsible for setting the edge to hammer the QB whether he has the ball or not on all read option plays. Let the NFL figure out how they call roughness when the play is designed to hide where the ball is.

"I had no idea where the ball was". Watch a Robert Griffin game and all you hear is how hard it is to know who's carrying the ball. So unload on the QB every chance you get.

The Packers blitzed, and the 49ers OL was able to open up holes for Kaepernick to run through the middle of the field for big gains.

Outside the pocket he is just another offensive player, or so the rules say.

Yeah. Good luck with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Pikes Peak:

quote:

Originally posted by Johnson:

Another shot at Kaepernick---and I've only seen him play twice, so it might be just my sour grapes talking--.

Yup.....he was good, very good.

He threw three balls into double coverage---one was returned for a touchdown and one could have been.. Again he is playing with the best team in football---against our defense that made Alex Smith, Andrew luck and Christian Ponder all look like Johnny U...He was very good, but my vote is that he does more long term harm than good to San Fran.

quote:

Originally posted by Hungry5:
Outside the pocket he is just another offensive player, or so the rules say.

Ha! If this were the case, why would they allow the QB the slide and make it 15 if he's touched? The best way to end the Pistol would be to designate the QB as a running back if it's an obvious run play. Let him get smacked, even if he's going to the ground just like they allow RBs to get hit. A couple times of that and they'll keep him in the pocket. If it's a pass or an obvious dropback-scramble, then he gets QB rules.

Hey, if they're going to create a QB/halfback player, then treat him like both.

quote:

Originally posted by Fandame:

quote:

Originally posted by Hungry5:
Outside the pocket he is just another offensive player, or so the rules say.

Ha! If this were the case, why would they allow the QB the slide and make it 15 if he's touched?

The slide is not just for the QB... any player who gives themselves up with a feet first slide is considered down where they started the slide.

quote:

RULE 7 Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Scrimmage
Section 2 Dead Ball
Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:
(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner
touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance; or
(b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends; or
(c) when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line
of scrimmage; or
(d) when a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground. The ball is dead the instant
the runner touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet; or
Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.
(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by
a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is
not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by
driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.
(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before
contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his
slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.

You're right, but...

... but what?

As long as they stay ahead of the curve and keep defenses off balance it's going to be tough sledding for any d that faces them. That offensive line very well may be the best since the Cowboys of the mid 90's.

Packers personnel has a tough task ahead in trying to get something together that can handle that. Either fight fire with fire using a running game and beat them at their own keep away style or try to beef it up in the middle on D and get a bunch better at setting the edge. Either way you need to (a) find difference making rookies and (b) count on rookies again in a big spot next year.

Clay can play either side equally. Surprised they didn't move him around a bit last week so at least SF had to change it up at the line. It's a lot easier to plan for him when you know where he's lining up every play. Kappernick doesn't seem like the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree and moving Clay would have forced some at the line adjustment. As it was they sat back and took what was coming to them.

The Packers biggest problem right now is they're too one dimensional on offense and defense. Have to become more versatile and make the other teams work harder in game planning. If you only play to your strengths and it's not good enough you have to develop some more strengths.

One big problem is those body types that they love in LB's and TE's kind of fizzled over the last 24 months. Crabtree for as much as I like him didn't give a lot of pop in run blocking this year. No other TE on the roster did either.

I think with Barclay next year and Bulaga back they can put a crazy tough package of 6 offensive lineman on the field and start doing some bullying of their own though so there's hope if they choose to do it.

To make it most effective (besides the obvious center upgrade) a back that can break some longer runs and really put the defense on their heels needs to be found. Harris is a nice back and a good depth guy but it's time for a stud. Green isn't the guy. He had enough opportunity this year to prove it. Benson is old and breaking down. Starks is young and breaking down. I'd like a new FB too and get some i formation going. Kuhn is smart and assignment sure but I want a guy who will blow up backers and he doesn't provide that.

It's unfair to Rodgers to ask him to be mr amazing every week. It's far past time he gets some help with the other dimension of the offense. He can't keep taking 50 sacks a year. It's going to catch up at some point. They've had forever and a day to get a running game going and they haven't done it. It's long past time to stop paying lip service to it and fix it.

quote:

why would they allow the QB the slide and make it 15 if he's touched

Maybe it's just me but It seems like they hardly call that anymore. There use to be a time where touching the QB would draw a flag and now it seems like if you don't lead with the helmet they let it slide.

I think another interesting aspect in all of the pistol QB talk is how much do you pay a guy with those skills when his rookie deal is up? I'd make an argument that a guy like that should make money a lot closer to a RB than a QB.

If that's the style you want to run as a team it's a lot easier to load up on guys from college that can do it, they're more easily replaced and you can get them a lot later in the draft then a traditional pocket passer. You just have to have the balls to move on to the next one when it's time.

From a salary cap standpoint that makes it a lot easier to build a tough continuous defense that grows together and keep some bulking offensive lineman to do the same.

Should be interesting to see how this plays out. There's going to be a lot of GM and coaching candidates selling the bs to any owner who will listen that this is the way to go.

quote:

If that's the style you want to run as a team it's a lot easier to load up on guys from college that can do it, they're more easily replaced and you can get them a lot later in the draft then a traditional pocket passer.

If you're talking about successful "pistol qb's" here, I don't think you're going to find many of them at all, much less late in the draft. Running Qb's, sure but not the kind that can actually hurt you with their arm. That is really what makes them effective. Maybe I'm underestimating what's out there. But an interesting point on their 2nd contract, especially if the running leads to injuries early on.

To me it seems like there's more of these guys coming out every year and if you're not wasting your time trying to teach them to be Peyton Manning in the pocket you can find a guy with enough arm to use it as a threat in balanced attack. Not a sixth or seventh pick but a third or fourth it creates opportunity as long as the whole league isn't looking for that as their QB of the future.

Agreed, there are alot more coming out each year, and there will be alot more in the future. Not everyone will turn out to be a RGIII, Newton, Kapernick, but we'll see more of them 4 yards back, IMO.

2 good points in this thread, one about the rules and changes could halt the pistol. Also, excellent point in the salary structure of these new QB's, or are they RB's.

quote:

Originally posted by Hungry5:

quote:

(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by
driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.

I think the refs have been doing a better job with this aspect lately.

Someone will take the penalty & fine if they believe they can get a "killshot" on a running QB. Sad but true

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:
Someone will take the penalty & fine if they believe they can get a "killshot" on a running QB. Sad but true

Madden pretty much said the same thing today on his radio show. They asked him how he thought defense would adjust to the pistol and his take was eventually they'll just key on the QB every time they line up in it, deal with whatever the RB gets and hit the QB till he drops or they stop calling it.

For that to happen defenses need to be in position to hit the guy, unlike what we saw saturday night.

quote:

Originally posted by titmfatied:

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:
Someone will take the penalty & fine if they believe they can get a "killshot" on a running QB. Sad but true

Madden pretty much said the same thing today on his radio show. They asked him how he thought defense would adjust to the pistol and his take was eventually they'll just key on the QB every time they line up in it, deal with whatever the RB gets and hit the QB till he drops or they stop calling it.

This.

Running backs are done at 30.

Running QB's will be no different.

quote:

Originally posted by titmfatied:

Clay can play either side equally. Surprised they didn't move him around a bit last week so at least SF had to change it up at the line. It's a lot easier to plan for him when you know where he's lining up every play. Kappernick doesn't seem like the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree and moving Clay would have forced some at the line adjustment.

Actually, he's pretty smart, 37 on the Wonderlic I think.

Roman raved about his game prep and understanding of the offense too. If you want to believe the OC.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair Kiel:

quote:

Originally posted by titmfatied:

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:
Someone will take the penalty & fine if they believe they can get a "killshot" on a running QB. Sad but true

Madden pretty much said the same thing today on his radio show. They asked him how he thought defense would adjust to the pistol and his take was eventually they'll just key on the QB every time they line up in it, deal with whatever the RB gets and hit the QB till he drops or they stop calling it.

This.

Running backs are done at 30.

Running QB's will be no different.

Came here to post this. Flash in the pan. Every one of these running QB's will be on IR at some point in their careers and none of them will reach age 30 in the NFL.

I disagree. These aren't Vick 2.0's. Wilson is a smart hard working guy that can succeed as a passer and use his legs to augment his game. While Kaepernick doesn't have as much successful game film as Wilson, he seems to posess the intangibles necessary to do a smiliar thing. CK's gaudy rushing numbers will go down eventually but I think he and Wilson will be decent QB's beyond their 30th birthday.

quote:

Originally posted by EC Pack:
Actually, he's pretty smart, 37 on the Wonderlic I think.

Interesting. When I watch his interviews he seems to have a bit of deer in the headlights. Guess I couldn't have been more wrong.

quote:

The essential Greg Roman: The 49ers offense adapts, adjusts, and unleashes
mercurynews.com

Atlanta probably doesn’t know what’s coming, and that’s exactly the way Greg Roman loves it and planned it.

That’s essentially the 49ers’ Roman Offense in a perfect, pressure-packed NFC Championship Week nutshell.

...But it’s also a credit to Roman, who re-worked the 49ers’ offense on the fly once Kaepernick took the job from Alex Smith in November, then adjusted it a couple more times, and probably is re-adjusting it again right now.

But it showcases the versatility, the adaptability and the unique strengths of a Greg Roman Offense (which is how Harbaugh himself describes it) and a coordinator with such a varied background.

“For me, the thing that’s just drastically different is he’s coached in the O-line room, he’s coached the quarterbacks,” Alex Smith said of Roman—the seventh coordinator of Smith’s 49ers career.

“You don’t find many guys that are that well-versed in run game, pass game, defenses. Most guys have their niche, you know? A coordinator is either a pass-game guy or he’s a run-game guy.

“Not many I’ve ever known have coached the defensive side of the ball for that long, played defense. For him, it’s just such a wealth of knowledge.”

Roman was a defensive lineman at John Carroll University, got his first coaching job on the defensive side with the Carolina Panthers, has been an offensive line coach, a QBs coach, a tight ends coach…

Finally, Roman landed with Harbaugh’s Stanford team in 2009 as the run game coordinator. Once he arrived, Stanford started running Toby Gerhart constantly and that has become the Harbaugh/Roman hallmark.

First, they will run. And everything else spins off of that offensive physicality. Which brings Roman far more in tune with the men on the trenches than most offensive coordinators ever get.

“Oh yeah, and we love that,” Boone said. “Normally offensive coordinators don’t get involved with the offensive line. They’re more with the skill guys…

“We always have last-minute reminders with him… he’s so dialed in with the entire offense, it’s unbelievable.”

That’s the kind of track record that could and should get an OC many looks for head-coaching opportunities in the NFL or college.
Interestingly, Roman’s John Carroll roommate David Caldwell just was hired as the Jacksonville general manager and has a coaching vacancy.
continue

I wouldn't be opposed to Roman heading to Jacksonville

One of the things about the read option that made it tenuous at the NFL level was the time it took to make the decision to pull the ball back or give it to the RB. In the NFL, with faster defenders, that half-second is all it takes for a blitzing LB to attack and blow a play up. It was Brian Billick on the radio in Chciago last week that talked about what his philosophy would be- regardless of whether the QB gave the ball up or not, hit the QB. Hit him, hit him, hit him.

The Packers tried to our-read and then react, and it played right into their hands. If you're an opposing D, and you can effectively blitz, you force a read option QB to think twice about giving it up. He looked great against the Packers because they never hit him. You can bet your a$$ the 49ers are going to see teams teeing off on Kaepernick whether he keeps it or not.

The Packers need speed at LB. They need speed everywhere. Speed kills this scheme, and then we're back to drop baqck passers again.

That was the old rule with the basic option play and why it never worked in the NFL. But the difference is the QB is so protected now that it causes the guy assigned to him to hesitate for even a split second, which is all the advantage the Q needs. I hope you're right though and that these read-o guys start taking hits.

@espn_nfcwest
NYG, SEA and MIN were only teams to finish regular season with positive turnover margin vs 49ers. SF was 1-3 against them.

there is an easy enough solution. modify the rules so that if the QB is in the Pistol formation he can be treated like a Running Back.

Billick is right. Hitting the QB and pitch man whether they have the ball or not is the way to defeat the traditional option. I think the same thing will work against a QB running the read option. It takes discipline as the DE, OLB , CB whoever needs to stay at home/play contain and let the QB come to him. As Walden proved,playing chase the QB will get you burned.
With todays rules,I think DCs will have to test the waters by pushing the rules that protect QBs. Time will tell, but I have faith DCs will figure out how to neutralize the read option.

I watched the Bengals against the Redskins game this season and the Bengals hit Griffin on the majority of the plays whether he had the ball or not. As far as I can remember, there weren't any flags thrown and they whacked him pretty good a few times.

There you go. As the season came to an end for Wash, those hits added up and knocked RGIII out of the game. I can't see too many sane HCs wanting to risk their franchise QBs like that for long.

The reason I say deffenses may have to push the rules is the Seattle game where GB was flagged for tackling Wilson while he was running outside the pocket. To me, a running QB should be a legit target to get the hammer.I have seen similar questionable calls like that in other games as well.
I guess it depends on the officiating crew too = roughing the QB rules are more a refs discretion call it seems.

Don't forget that the Seattle game was played with replacement officials.

The 9ers were running the Pistol? They couldn't have been more effective if Kaepernick were armed with an uzi.