And..... I think Gary is going to be a disappointing pick. It was my opinion right after the pick and it’s my opinion 10 games in.
He doesn’t have a role in this defense because his abilities don’t match the scheme. He’s not a plus pass rusher from the edge and he’s got no experience in coverage. He should be 4-3 end where he could have a decent career being a plus run defender with a bull rush sack here and there.
How you would predict his career?
And.... this Packers staff is not afraid to play rookies if they can produce.
Mike Smith says Gary is going to be one of the best pass rushers in the league.
I defer to the professional LB coach.
Z'Darius wasn't anything ultra special his first 2 years either. Give him a chance.
Dom Capers was a professional football coach; did you defer to what he said? 
BrainDed posted:And..... I think Gary is going to be a disappointing pick. It was my opinion right after the pick and it’s my opinion 10 games in.
He doesn’t have a role in this defense because his abilities don’t match the scheme. He’s not a plus pass rusher from the edge and he’s got no experience in coverage. He should be 4-3 end where he could have a decent career being a plus run defender with a bull rush sack here and there.
How you would predict his career?
So Nick Perry.
BrainDed posted:And..... I think Gary is going to be a disappointing pick. It was my opinion right after the pick and it’s my opinion 10 games in.
He doesn’t have a role in this defense because his abilities don’t match the scheme. He’s not a plus pass rusher from the edge and he’s got no experience in coverage. He should be 4-3 end where he could have a decent career being a plus run defender with a bull rush sack here and there.
How you would predict his career?
A few too many cocktails again?
What if Lombardi had only given Bart Starr 10 games in 1959?
What if the Steelers had given Unitas 10 games?
I really want to hear someone provide a detailed explanation of the Packers defensive scheme and why there are scheme specific players that are required for it. This Gary discussion is also hilarious because for 8 years people bitched about Capers not tailoring his scheme to his personnel, now were tailoring personnel to the scheme?
I didn't realize the Steelers had first crack at Unitas -- Smert!
https://www.si.com/vault/1957/...the-first-four-games
Sometimes it takes players a couple years. Even Justin Harrell showed out in year 3 then got hurt in game 1 vs. Eagles
But hey....let's cut the #12 overall draft pick because 10 games in he doesn't have 10 sacks like a 5-year vet (Preston Smith)
Henry posted:So Nick Perry.
Exactly. Another great athlete, strong and fast, but for whatever reason just an average football player.
Boris posted:
But hey....let's cut the #12 overall draft pick because 10 games in he doesn't have 10 sacks like a 5-year vet (Preston Smith)
Strawman game on point.
My opinion is simple. I think he's miscast in this defense and even if he was in a 4-3, he would be an average player. At 12 overall, that's not ideal.
Hopefully I'm wrong but it doesn't make me a Debbie Downer to have an opinion that doesn't line up exactly with the Packers org.
Grave Digger posted:I really want to hear someone provide a detailed explanation of the Packers defensive scheme and why there are scheme specific players that are required for it. This Gary discussion is also hilarious because for 8 years people bitched about Capers not tailoring his scheme to his personnel, now were tailoring personnel to the scheme?
The Gary issue is the same as the Nick Perry and Datone Jones issue. They don't really fit one particular position well and are not good enough football players to overcome this. The proverbial tweener. I think he fits a 4-3 end better than a 3-4 OLB but he isn't perfectly built for that either.
Of the 3 players only 1 had a collegiate year with 6 or more sacks. Perry.
They are just keeping Gary fresh for the playoffs.
Smert.
Regardless of what becomes of Gary, comparing him athletically to D Jones or Perry is gross negligence. He's not Peppers but he compares better to him than the other two. Current OLB skills notwithstanding.
BrainDed posted:Grave Digger posted:I really want to hear someone provide a detailed explanation of the Packers defensive scheme and why there are scheme specific players that are required for it. This Gary discussion is also hilarious because for 8 years people bitched about Capers not tailoring his scheme to his personnel, now were tailoring personnel to the scheme?
The Gary issue is the same as the Nick Perry and Datone Jones issue. They don't really fit one particular position well and are not good enough football players to overcome this. The proverbial tweener. I think he fits a 4-3 end better than a 3-4 OLB but he isn't perfectly built for that either.
Of the 3 players only 1 had a collegiate year with 6 or more sacks. Perry.
I would agree if we played a 3-4 defense.
Also scheme fit was not a part of the reason Perry or Jones failed. The fact that they’ve gone on to other schemes or are out of football entirely tells me they’re just not good players and wouldn’t be in any scheme. Mike Daniels wasn’t a fit for Capers 34 and he had productive years. It’s unfair to compare anyone to Perry.
You- "they’re just not good players and wouldn’t be in any scheme."
Me - "They don't really fit one particular position well and are not good enough football players to overcome this. "
So we basically agree. That's what I'm saying as well with the caveat that Gary would have a better chance in a 4-3. I realize that you're not saying Gary is in this group, so that's really the only disagreement here.
Do we play a 3-4? Yes. Do we play a 4-3? Yes.
When I say 3-4 or 4-3 i'm talking about personnel as much as I am alignment. They go hand in hand.
So no, we rarely if ever play 4-3. I'd guess we actually play 3-3 more than anything. 2-4 personnel on passing downs in a 3-4 alignment is common too.
Get to the point international man of mystery.....
While it's WAY too early to write Gary off, I am very concerned just as I was when they picked him. He's a great athlete, but is he a football player? I do remember reading a bunch of scouting reports about him after the draft. Many were not very optimistic. One scout wrote that he thought Gary would have a decent NFL career but that he has never been an elite pass rusher and he wouldn't expect him to become one in the NFL.
Time will tell......
You just made the point. How can you say someone isn’t a scheme fit when our scheme utilizes every front in the book? Is he a pure 3-4 OLB in the mold of Clay Matthews? No. Is Z Smith? No. Was Julius Peppers? No. Do we run a scheme reliant on that? No. If you want to have a hot take and say you’ve watched him and you think he sucks, that’s cool. It’s not a scheme fit issue though, our DC and OLB coach have said they specifically wanted this guy for the same reason they wanted Z Smith, scheme flexibility. They want a DE, DT, OLB all rolled into one. A 3-4 scheme may not want Gary, our scheme The Angry Bald Man Scheme does.
From Pete Daugherty: The ILB position has been de-emphasized league wide over the last 15 to 20 years as the game has become more passing and matchup oriented. You can see that in the pay -- ILB is on the lower end of the pay scale for the franchise tags. But it might be coming back more into vogue because of the need to find someone who's physical and explosive in the run game but also fast enough to cover TEs and RBs. Last year we saw two of them drafted high in the first round (Devin Bush and Devin White), and the year before another was a top-10 pick (Roquan Smith). So maybe Gutekunst will put more into that position in the offseason. He did use a third-round pick on Burks in '18, but so far he hasn't done anything.
BrainDed posted:And..... I think Gary is going to be a disappointing pick. It was my opinion right after the pick and it’s my opinion 10 games in.
He doesn’t have a role in this defense because his abilities don’t match the scheme. He’s not a plus pass rusher from the edge and he’s got no experience in coverage. He should be 4-3 end where he could have a decent career being a plus run defender with a bull rush sack here and there.
How you would predict his career?
I don't know, I got back and forth on him. It would not surprise me if he was just so-so with the Packers for 4 years then goes on to play well for another team. On the other hand, he's pretty similar size-wise to both the Smith Bros., so not like he's completely miscast in Pettine's defense. He's a little bigger but also more athletic. My big issue is that the Packers paid the Smith Bros big money and they've delivered, meaning Gary is probably playing behind them for at least 3 years. I don't usually promote drafting for need but at #12, you need to take a guy that has a clear path to the field.
That said, only guy I liked more than Gary in the next 20 picks was Brian Burns, who would have the same issue in Green Bay. So not ready to say Gary is a bust. I actually read that PFF graded him as one of the most improved players from his first 6 games to his last 4. So there's that.
I'll admit, I haven't been impressed with him thus far. I'm not saying he's bad or a bust at all, but he really hasn't done anything thus far. I'm not disappointed though because 1) he was always going to be a project and 2) he's behind 3 guys on the depth chart who have combined for 42 sacks from 2018-now. I'm optimistic because his athletic testing was through the roof, we've seen him at UM and in GB show a lot of hustle, everything he's said shows a great attitude, he has strong mentorship in front of him, and he has a proven position coach. Is that a guarantee of success? No, but it's going to take some strange circumstances for this kid to NOT be successful. Nick Perry and Datone Jones were lacking basically all of those factors honestly.
I concur GD.
I'm also with the doctor on RG. He has the perfect two mentors right in front of him in learning how to play their positions the way they do in this particular D.
To date he has 161 snaps. That's equivalent to about 3 games for a starter. He has racked up 12 tackles and 1 sack. Not bad. Extrapolate that out and its 5 sacks with 60 tackles are so. Again, not bad for a rookie campaign.
For comparison, Fackrell has 240 about 4 full games, and that's led to 13 tackles and .5 sacks.
Maybe I'm being too harsh, I hope so.
Grave Digger posted:You just made the point. How can you say someone isn’t a scheme fit when our scheme utilizes every front in the book? Is he a pure 3-4 OLB in the mold of Clay Matthews? No. Is Z Smith? No. Was Julius Peppers? No. Do we run a scheme reliant on that? No. If you want to have a hot take and say you’ve watched him and you think he sucks, that’s cool. It’s not a scheme fit issue though, our DC and OLB coach have said they specifically wanted this guy for the same reason they wanted Z Smith, scheme flexibility. They want a DE, DT, OLB all rolled into one. A 3-4 scheme may not want Gary, our scheme The Angry Bald Man Scheme does.
I definitely agree with this simply due to the fact they went after the Smith Bros instead of some pure pass rusher. The biggest thing I heard about Z was being able to play inside on passing downs. P isn't tiny either. Pettine definitely loves the interchangeability but I don't think Smith Bros work into the ILB at all. Gary is the same mold and build and maybe he is still learning that type of rotation from DE/OLB/Rush DT. It seems Gary was praised in his college play for making teams focus on him hence the lack of stats.
That's great and all but won't cut it in the NFL. If he isn't producing something more by the end of next season they should call a spade a spade, pick a spot for him with the knowledge he isn't going to do anything else and has hit his ceiling.
Grave Digger posted:I really want to hear someone provide a detailed explanation of the Packers defensive scheme and why there are scheme specific players that are required for it. This Gary discussion is also hilarious because for 8 years people bitched about Capers not tailoring his scheme to his personnel, now were tailoring personnel to the scheme?
#domcaperssucks
Who?
Just a guy
A guy that receives Christmas Cards from Colin Kaerpernick every year.
BrainDed posted:To date he has 161 snaps. That's equivalent to about 3 games for a starter. He has racked up 12 tackles and 1 sack. Not bad. Extrapolate that out and its 5 sacks with 60 tackles are so. Again, not bad for a rookie campaign.
For comparison, Fackrell has 240 about 4 full games, and that's led to 13 tackles and .5 sacks.
Maybe I'm being too harsh, I hope so.
Kyler Fackrell is not exactly setting a high bar.
Watch the players and don’t just look at the stats. Fackrell has been better than Gary almost every game.
Watching this fool last night and he has an uncanny ability to HURL himself into invisible gaps while leaving the ACTUAL gap to his left or right for the running back to use. Stunning. I thought he was from Stanford?
