Tales from the war room...

Really interesting comments about Jennings. It's no wonder that the management was ready to move on.

telling. again pointing out how sherman was letting one of the inmates run part of the asylum.


"Favre was livid. I spent the rest of the draft listening to Bus Cook, his agent, express Favre's anger, along with threats to not show up. I knew Favre had long dreamed of playing with Moss, but I told him that Greg Jennings would be a star in time. Favre said he didn't have time. I explained our method of drafting and developing players, but it only served to deepen his resentment of a general manager who did not welcome his input the way previous regimes had."

TT and MM. Bless their hearts.

It doesn't mean they actually took in to account what he said, just that they gave the pretense of listening.

I loved this bit:
"After the three-day marathon of the draft, the action really heats up. Teams have recruited "priority free agents" for weeks, and every agent's response is the same: "If you're interested, draft him!" When the draft ends, the feeding frenzy begins, a chaotic scene where teams have multiple players on the line while agents are doing the same with several teams, a risky game of musical jobs."

not to be argumentative, but it doesn't say that at all.

That's a crappy assignment. "Andrew, you get to deal with the a-hole's agent when he calls in screaming and threatening to take his ball and go home."

"Great. Thanks."

In managing star players, giving the pretense you care what they think goes a long way. Look at what Phil Jackson has done throughout his career with Jordan, Pippen., Kobe, Shaq, etc. Favre/Cook were also "testing the waters" I'm sure. It's really a silly game involving men with huge egos on both sides.

It's also interesting how long the Packers held out waiting for a trade offer, implying they weren't completely enamored with Rodgers even though he was the only guy left on their first-round board. It makes us wonder what a "rebuild" really means to some GMs and that Thompson and McCarthy were ready to make another run with Favre at the helm for a number of years still.

And how much was Cook embellishment over Favre being upset (which I don't doubt he was upset, obviously)

I think we can safely say there is a high degree of certainty Andrew Brandt will not be introducing BrINT Favre when the HOF induction takes place.

Here is the X4 take on it when the original article first came out

http://timesfour.com/eve/forum...=557309454#557309454

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:
Look at what Phil Jackson has done throughout his career with Jordan, Pippen., Kobe, Shaq, etc.

I know you've always been a Brent/Sherman supporter, and that's fine and dandy, but you're not seriously trying to equate the most successful NBA coach in the history of the game with , are you?

And no, the "I'm only comparing the management approach" isn't going to fly, since based on results Jackson's approach worked and Shermy's sucked balls. They're about as equivalent Vince Lombardi and Lindy Infante, and that's not even a stretch.

I'd actually love to find out what type of cluster**** the war room was with Shermy, given those results.

Brent to Sherman...."Can you find a directional punter? I am tired of chucking up jump balls for ints?"

Shermie - "Sure Boss BJ Sander sound good?"

Brent - "Awww...shucks...that'll do."

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:
I'd actually love to find out what type of cluster**** the war room was with Shermy, given those results.

I'd say Captain Queeg is a fair analogy on that one. Sherman didn't trust his scouts and is still trying to figure out who stole the strawberries

I don't think it's black & white is all. Thompson's approach appears different from Jackson's. I suppose you could argue better or worse, but it probably depends on the situation. There have been numerous reports how McCarthy worked to assuage Rodgers' ego "issues" with McCarthy suggesting and supporting Alex Smith over him in '05, etc. Is Rodgers a vile, whiny jerk because he may have had issues with McCarthy about that? Could they have handled the whole Favre situation a little differently? Maybe or probably, but it's over now. It was mainly shlong-swinging that everyone probably could have handled better, Favre, Cook, Thompson, etc.

Dealing with egos is part of the game and TT has as big an ego as anyone, and rightfully so. Shrinking violets don't get in to those positions, GM, Head Coach or successful QB, it's balls-to-the-wall. They all do good & bad things, cest la vie. I'm a fan of the team and I like things all of them have done and not liked others. I'm not going to overlook or disparage the years and service someone gave to the club for the newest flavor even if I like that newest flavor too. Mike Sherman did a lot of good things for and with the club and what I find funny is the people who claim he put too much emphasis on the combine also like to rehash teh picture of him supposedly sleeping at the combine because it was a dog & pony show. Stopping the skid and getting the team back to the playoffs consistently, the Lambeau Renovation, guys like Barnett, Harris and Kampman, developing a top-tier offensive line and run game, going after Sapp, etc. were all things I think were done well.

I also understand that the plans of everyone had to be signed off on by Bob Harlan (and Mark Murphy now). I'm also a firm believer that having one person as GM/Head Coach is a recipe for disaster. It's generally too much for one person to handle and hard to balance the sometimes opposing goals. (win now vs. win later, etc.) I also think having a former scout as a GM Is a good thing. Scouts need to look at "what if", coaches need to look at "what do I have right now".

The part I liked being reinforced was the UDFA chaos immediately following the draft. As fans, the draft "spectacle" focuses on the draft itself and can appear like once that part is done it's just mopping up.

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:
I'd actually love to find out what type of cluster**** the war room was with Shermy, given those results.

He let non-Packers personnel in the draft room, allegedly.

A War Room I would pay to watch live tomorrow is Miami.

You have Stephen Ross who has done a terrible job trying to convince everyone he's really not interested in Ryan Tannehill. You Have Sherman who thought so much of Tannehill's prowess at QB he moved him to WR his Sophmore season before moving him back to QB for his Jr season at Texas A&M. And you have Joe Philbin who may or may not already realize Matt Moore is a pretty good QB with his head in both hands on national TV wondering exactly how he ever ended up in a situation like that.

No doubt. Tannehill has huge bust written all over him because he's going to be expected to start right away. Jax pulled the same thing with Gabbert last year who might have been a decent player but he needed to sit and learn.

quote:

Dealing with egos is part of the game and TT has as big an ego as anyone

Disagree. He's one of the more humble GM's in the game.

Billy B? Now that's an ego

quote:

I'd actually love to find out what type of cluster**** the war room was with Shermy, given those results.

RC Slocum suckered Sherman into taking Turd Ferguson in the 2nd round. Shermy was too loyal to a fault with his friends.

http://news.google.com/newspap...IBAJ&pg=6253,8742953

One of the reasons why the Packers felt so confident trading up six places in the second round for the expressed purpose of taking Ferguson was the glowing recommendation of R.C. Slocum, Ferguson's coach last season at A&M and Mike Sherman's former boss.

And Chris Chambers was still on the board. Sherman was an unmitigated disaster as a GM.

Except it was Ron Wolf running that draft.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:
Except it was Ron Wolf running that draft.

He gets plenty of blame for giving Sherman input and then giving him the reins with a very questionable track record in personnel.

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:
I'd actually love to find out what type of cluster**** the war room was with Shermy, given those results.

Ask one of his scouts.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:
I don't think it's black & white is all. Thompson's approach appears different from Jackson's.

Personalities aside, perhaps it's because one's a GM and the other's a coach?

quote:

Dealing with egos is part of the game and TT has as big an ego as anyone, and rightfully so. Shrinking violets don't get in to those positions, GM, Head Coach or successful QB, it's balls-to-the-wall.

BS.

From what I've read and observed, TT's ego is completely in check. He not only doesn't seek out the spotlight, he also appears somewhat uncomfortable in it. Being decisive, and not being a "shrinking violet" doesn't necessarily equate to having a big ego.

quote:

I'm a fan of the team and I like I'm not going to overlook or disparage the years and service someone gave to the club for the newest flavor even if I like that newest flavor too. Mike Sherman did a lot of good things for and with the club and what I find funny is the people who claim he put too much emphasis on the combine also like to rehash teh picture of him supposedly sleeping at the combine because it was a dog & pony show. Stopping the skid and getting the team back to the playoffs consistently, the Lambeau Renovation, guys like Barnett, Harris and Kampman, developing a top-tier offensive line and run game, going after Sapp, etc. were all things I think were done well.

I've been on record as thinking Mike Sherman is a good person, a pretty decent coach, and I've wished him well post-Packers. He respected the Packer tradition. I also honestly believe he had the best of intentions, he worked as hard as he could, and tried to set an example (for his team and for others).

That said:

1. "Supposedly" fell asleep, Hersh? Seriously?

2. Since you're giving credit for it to him, what specific and/or significant role do you think MS played in the idea/design/campaign for the LF renovation?

quote:

I also understand that the plans of everyone had to be signed off on by Bob Harlan (and Mark Murphy now). I'm also a firm believer that having one person as GM/Head Coach is a recipe for disaster. It's generally too much for one person to handle and hard to balance the sometimes opposing goals. (win now vs. win later, etc.) I also think having a former scout as a GM Is a good thing. Scouts need to look at "what if", coaches need to look at "what do I have right now".

I agree. Which is why I don't understand how Phil Jackson's approach to how he does his job as opposed to TT is particularly relevant. Two different jobs and situations (not to mention sports).

Never eat turkey during scouting trips or on draft day.

The Jackson and TT approaches are comparable from the management aspect of dealing with player egos. Jackson was a coach, sure, but he also was more hands-on with the whole team operation, which admittedly is easier when dealing with 12-15 guys instead of 54-90.

And TT has a huge ego. People like to point out his turd-eating smirk in press conferences like he's the smartest guy in the room and he's humoring them because he has to, etc. He may be more introverted than some others but his ego is huge, as it should be. It's a heavy stress job with a lot of decision making involved.

As for Mike Sherman's influence/involvement on the renovation he had his hand in a number of things to maintain the history and tradition including relocating the tunnel bricks so the players would still march out to the field on "hallowed ground", using the door from Vince Lombardi's old office and having it put on the Head Coaches offfice "Sherman asked that the original door frame from Lombardi’s office be salvaged — it was embedded in a remodeled wall — and used as the door frame to his new office.", the design of the locker room and "Hallowed Hallway" "The hall outside the players’ locker room is a shrine to Packers greatness. Replicas of the three Super Bowl trophies (appropriately known as the Lombardi Trophy) are placed there, and banners representing the 12 national championship teams are suspended from the ceiling. Black-and-white photos of the NFL Hall of Famers hang on the hallway walls."

Sherman was also extremely good on "Trading Spaces," even though I disagreed with his use of a faux-finish on the accent wall in the bathroom.

Can't fault anyone for liking the draft, youth is close enough to talent.

If

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:

quote:

Dealing with egos is part of the game and TT has as big an ego as anyone

Disagree. He's one of the more humble GM's in the game.

Billy B? Now that's an ego

A Lot of Funk to sort through because rookies are usually young.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:
In managing star players, giving the pretense you care what they think goes a long way. Look at what Phil Jackson has done throughout his career with Jordan, Pippen., Kobe, Shaq, etc. Favre/Cook were also "testing the waters" I'm sure. It's really a silly game involving men with huge egos on both sides.

It's also interesting how long the Packers held out waiting for a trade offer, implying they weren't completely enamored with Rodgers even though he was the only guy left on their first-round board. It makes us wonder what a "rebuild" really means to some GMs and that Thompson and McCarthy were ready to make another run with Favre at the helm for a number of years still.

And how much was Cook embellishment over Favre being upset (which I don't doubt he was upset, obviously)

Not coincidently, these days thats how you coach high school players too.

Agree with your portrayal of Sherman, Coach.

He was a good coach, especially in play-calling, but overmatched as GM. I'd say his biggest weakness was some strange assistanmts.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:
There have been numerous reports how McCarthy worked to assuage Rodgers' ego "issues" with McCarthy suggesting and supporting Alex Smith over him in '05, etc.

Really? I have seen one article that suggested Rodgers was "cocky" coming into his first camp. That would be about it. I look forward to reading these numerous reports you speak of.

quote:

I'm not going to overlook or disparage the years and service someone gave to the club for the newest flavor even if I like that newest flavor too.

Pretty much a bull**** assumption on your part. Sherman is fine individual and thanks and all but ultimately it was his ego vs. TT's ego and TT has been shown to be correct in his approach. Glad for Shermy honoring the tradition but how about not running the team into the ground. He failed, move on. Carrying the torch for the guy and then going after people for "flavor of the month" is also complete bush league. We are fans but time marches on. If you love yourself some Shermy, fabulous. Own up to the failures as well as his successes. Ultimately those failures got him fired.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:


It's also interesting how long the Packers held out waiting for a trade offer, implying they weren't completely enamored with Rodgers even though he was the only guy left on their first-round board.

Really? Could you take a little more liberty with that statement? Draw up a statistical analysis of how long TT took on each pick per round and get back to me. This kind of stuff is what leads to great fiction like Dirkle Smat.

quote:

It makes us wonder what a "rebuild" really means to some GMs and that Thompson and McCarthy were ready to make another run with Favre at the helm for a number of years still.

I think it's pretty clear they were ready to make a run with him again. Favre quit. Those are two rock solid pieces of data, not conjecture. Add in the complete void on the defensive side of the ball and replacing aging spots on the offense and I'm pretty sure whatever you want to call it, it's a rebuild. I highly doubt they believed they would just plug in Rodgers and have an immediate champion. The "rebuild" comes from building a new nucleus around Rodgers and letting them develop together. A totally different approach if you're going with Bert.

Amen.

The true genius of TT is, he never gets painted into a corner by ANY situation.

Guys he believed in may not perform for various reasons and injuries happen but he always has the the deck stacked in his favor.

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:


It's also interesting how long the Packers held out waiting for a trade offer, implying they weren't completely enamored with Rodgers even though he was the only guy left on their first-round board.

Really? Could you take a little more liberty with that statement? Draw up a statistical analysis of how long TT took on each pick per round and get back to me. This kind of stuff is what leads to great fiction like Dirkle Smat.

This was the article I was reading that reminded me of this and the other.

McGinn article of Rodgers, slow development, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:
The Jackson and TT approaches are comparable from the management aspect of dealing with player egos. Jackson was a coach, sure, but he also was more hands-on with the whole team operation, which admittedly is easier when dealing with 12-15 guys instead of 54-90.

BS. Jackson wasn't the GM, and he didn't get to make the final call on who stays or goes. Thompson has to, which is why (IMO) it's understandable that he keeps somewhat of a of distance from the roster. I agree about the roster size to an extent.

quote:

And TT has a huge ego. People like to point out his turd-eating smirk in press conferences like he's the smartest guy in the room and he's humoring them because he has to, etc. He may be more introverted than some others but his ego is huge, as it should be. It's a heavy stress job with a lot of decision making involved.

More BS.

That's a 100% projection on your part. Smirking at attempts to get information you have no intention of sharing doesn't indicate a big ego, it indicates an awareness of absurdity. Being decisive does not absolutely equate to having a big ego.

quote:

As for Mike Sherman's influence/involvement on the renovation he had his hand in a number of things to maintain the history and tradition including relocating the tunnel bricks so the players would still march out to the field on "hallowed ground", using the door from Vince Lombardi's old office and having it put on the Head Coaches offfice "Sherman asked that the original door frame from Lombardi’s office be salvaged — it was embedded in a remodeled wall — and used as the door frame to his new office.", the design of the locker room and "Hallowed Hallway" "The hall outside the players’ locker room is a shrine to Packers greatness. Replicas of the three Super Bowl trophies (appropriately known as the Lombardi Trophy) are placed there, and banners representing the 12 national championship teams are suspended from the ceiling. Black-and-white photos of the NFL Hall of Famers hang on the hallway walls."

And how did any of the essentially cosmetic contributions you just listed above relate to the genesis of the idea for the renovation, getting the measure crafted/drafted, lobbied for, and then successfully passed by the legislature?

To the extent that he should receive credit for it, Hersh? Seriously? And you still didn't bother to mention Harlan once the above reply.

Brandt is probably one of my favorite NFL insiders because he simply gets it. He's been on both sides of the table (agent and management), and he is detailed without turning a discussion into gibberish or cliches like so many other of the talking heads.

What a great explanation of what it's like, and pretty typical from what we know of Brent and Cook. I'm sure there are other (far worse) stories related to this where the QB thought he should be running the team.

It makes you wonder had they taken Ware or Spears how different this team would be right now. Wow.

quote:

And TT has a huge ego. People like to point out his turd-eating smirk in press conferences like he's the smartest guy in the room and he's humoring them because he has to, etc. He may be more introverted than some others but his ego is huge, as it should be. It's a heavy stress job with a lot of decision making involved.

I think he does it to purposely get a rise out of the media because he's not about to disclose his real intentions or come clean for fear that it will disrupt what he's trying to do. Personally, I want my GM to operate more like a CIA agent than act like someone's best friend and tell them what they want to hear.

It's hard to argue the results people.

ROTTT

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:


This was the article I was reading that reminded me of this and the other.

McGinn article of Rodgers, slow development, etc.

Fair enough. But let's also look at the fact that it was stated TT believed Rodgers to be the only true #1 talent left on the board. The inference that he was waiting for a trade because he didn't want Rodgers seems silly. If TT thought so poorly of him why would he even invest the pick?

Basically, what I get from that article that he was a smart mouthed rookie who got his ass handed to him the first year and made a commitment to change personally and professionally. I'm not seeing this massive ego struggle and coddling you speak of.

Probably shouldn't even mention this here but, I loved and admired Mike Sherman for his "ready to kick Warren Sapp in the arse" mentality after the game when Sapp just creamed Chad Clifton.